Lords Sitting of 17 July 1900

PRIVATE BILL BUSINESS.
The LORD CHANCELLOR The LORD CHANCELLOR acquainted the House that the Clerk of the Parliaments had laid upon the Table the Certificates from the Examiners that the further Standing Orders applicable to the following Bills have been complied with:—

London (St. Luke) Provisional Order.

London (Southwark) Provisional Order.

The same were ordered to lie on the Table.

PRIVATE BILL BUSINESS.
  GREAT WESTERN RAILWAY BILL.
  The Queen's consent, and the consent of His Royal Highness the Prince of Wales in right of his Duchy of Cornwall, signified; and Bill reported from the Select Committee with Amendments.
  ABERDEEN CORPORATION TRAMWAYS BILL.
    CUMBERLAND COUNTY COUNCIL (BRIDGES) BILL.
    Reported with Amendments.
    LONDON AND NORTH-WESTERN RAILWAY (WALES) BILL.
    Report from the Select Committee, That the Committee had not proceeded with the consideration of the Bill, the opposition thereto having been withdrawn; read, and ordered to lie on the Table. The Orders made on the 25th of June and 6th July last discharged; and Bill committed.
    GREAT INDIAN PENINSULA RAILWAY COMPANY BILL.
    Moved, That the Order made on the 12th day of March last, "That no Private Bill brought from the House of Commons shall be read a second time after Tuesday the 26th day of June next," be dispensed with, and that the Bill be now read 2a; agreed to; Bill read 2a accordingly.
    BRAY URBAN DISTRICT COUNCIL BILL.
    Read 3a, and passed.
    LANCASHIRE, DERBYSHIRE, AND EAST COAST RAILWAY BILL.
    Read 3a, with the Amendments; further Amendments made; Bill passed, and returned to the Commons.
    LAMBETH WATER BILL.
    Read 3a, with the Amendments, and passed, and returned to the Commons.
  NORTH METROPOLITAN ELECTRIC POWER SUPPLY BILL.
    SOUTH WALES ELECTRICAL POWER DISTRIBUTION BILL.
    Brought from the Commons; read 1a; and referred to the Examiners.
  WATER ORDERS CONFIRMATION BILL [H.L.]
    WESTGATE AND BIRCHINGTON WATER BILL [H.L.]
    Returned from the Commons agreed to.
  LEE CONSERVANCY BILL.
    NORTH METROPOLITAN RAILWAY AND CANAL BILL.
    Returned from the Commons with the Amendments agreed to.
  GAS ORDERS CONFIRMATION (No. 1) BILL [H.L.]
    FALKIRK AND DISTRICT WATER BILL [H.L.]
    Returned from the Commons agreed to, with Amendments.
    HAMILTON, MOTHERWELL, AND WISHAW TRAMWAYS BILL.
    Returned from the Commons with the Amendments agreed to, with an Amendment.
    LOCAL GOVERNMENT PROVISIONAL ORDERS (No. 12) BILL.
    Committed to a Committee of the whole House.
    LOCAL GOVERNMENT PROVISIONAL ORDERS (No. 14) BILL.
    Committed: The Committee to be proposed by the Committee of Selection.
  LOCAL GOVERNMENT PROVISIONAL ORDERS (No. 10) BILL.
    LOCAL GOVERNMENT PROVISIONAL ORDERS (No. 11) BILL.

      LOCAL GOVERNMENT PROVISIONAL ORDERS (No. 13) BILL.
      LOCAL GOVERNMENT PROVISIONAL ORDER (HOUSING OF WORKING CLASSES) BILL.
      House in Committee (according to Order); Bills reported without amendment; Standing Committee negatived; and Bills to be read 3a on Thursday next.

      LOCAL GOVERNMENT PROVISIONAL ORDERS (No. 1) BILL.
      Amendments reported (according to Order), and Bill to be read 3a on Thursday next.
      LOCAL GOVERNMENT PROVISIONAL ORDERS (No. 5) BILL.
      Read 3a (according to Order), and passed.
      ELECTRTC LIGHTING PROVISIONAL ORDERS (No. 12) BILL.
      Read 3a (according to Order), with the Amendments, and passed, and returned to the Commons.
  LOCAL GOVERNMENT PROVISIONAL ORDERS (No. 8) BILL.
    LOCAL GOVERNMENT PROVISIONAL ORDERS (POOR LAW) BILL.
      ELECTRIC LIGHTING PROVISIONAL ORDERS (No. 9) BILL.
      Read 3a (according to Order), and passed.
      PIER AND HARBOUR PROVISIONAL ORDERS (No. 2) BILL.
      Amendments reported (according to Order), and Bill to be read 3a on Thursday next.
    LONDON (CLERKENWELL AND HOLBORN) PROVISIONAL ORDER BILL.
      LONDON (POPLAR) PROVISIONAL ORDER BILL.
      House in Committee (according to Order); Bills reported without Amendment; Standing Committee negatived; and Bills to be read 3a on Thursday next.
  EAST LONDON WATER BILL.
    ROCHDALE CORPORATION BILL.

      WEST HAM CORPORATION BILL.
      ELECTRIC LIGHTING PROVISIONAL ORDERS (No. 10) BILL.
      PLYMOUTH, STONEHOUSE. AND DEVONPORT TRAMWAYS BILL.
      CROYDON TRAMWAYS AND IMPROVEMENTS BILL.
      LONDON COUNTY TRAMWAYS (No. 2) BILL.
      LONDON COUNTY TRAMWAYS (No. 1) BILL.
      KINGSCOURT, KEADY, AND ARMAGH RAILWAY BILL.
      NEWRY, KEADY, AND TYNAN LIGHT RAILWAY BILL.
      GREAT NORTHERN RAILWAY (IRELAND) BILL.
      Report from the Committee of Selection, That the Earl Temple be proposed to the House as a member of the Select Committee on the said Bills in the place of the Lord Stanmore; read, and agreed to.

    RETURNS, REPORTS, ETC.

      TRADE REPORTS.
      I. Annual Series:—No. 2474. Italy (Sardinia); No. 2475. Brazil (Rio de Janeiro); No. 2476. United States (Boston); No. 2477. Turkey (Erzeroum); No. 2478. China (Chefoo).
      II. Miscellaneous Series:—No. 534. Present state of Belgian coal, metal, and glass industries.

      Correspondence relating to the affairs of the Cape Colony.
      Presented (by Command), and ordered to lie on the Table.

      WORKMEN'S COMPENSATION ACT (1897) EXTENSION BILL.
      Returned from the Commons with the Amendment agreed to.
      POOR REMOVAL BILL.
      Reported from the Standing Committee without amendment, and to be read 3a on Thursday next.
      DIOCESAN REGISTRATION BILL [H.L.]
      Reported from the Standing Committee without further amendment; the Report of the amendments made in Committee of the whole House to be received on Thursday next.
      BEER RETAILERS' AND SPIRIT GROCERS' LICENCES (IRELAND) (No. 2) BILL.
      Reported from the Standing Committee without further amendment; the Report of the Amendments made in Committee of the whole House to be received on Monday next.
      CHARITABLE LOANS (IRELAND) BILL.
      Reported from the Standing Committee without amendment, and to be read 3a on Thursday next.
      CRUELTY TO WILD ANIMALS IN CAPTIVITY BILL.
      Reported from the Standing Committee without further amendment: the Report of the Amendments made in Committee of the whole House to be received on Tuesday next.
      MERCHANT SHIPPING (LIABILITY OF SHIPOWNERS AND OTHERS) BILL.
      Reported from the Standing Committee without further amendment; the Report of the Amendment made in Committee of the whole House to be received on Thursday next.
      MEMBERS OF LOCAL AUTHORITIES RELIEF BILL [H.L.]
      Reported from the Standing Committee with further Amendments; the Report of the Amendments made in Committee of the Whole House and by the Standing Committee, to be received on Thursday next; and Bill to be printed as amended. (No. 189.)
    COUNTY COURTS (IRELAND) BILL [H.L.]
      VETERINARY SURGEONS (AMENDMENT) BILL.
      Reported from the Standing Committee without Amendment, and to be read 3a on Thursday next.
      TITHE RENT-CHARGE (IRELAND) BILL.
      Brought from the Commons. Read 1a; to be printed; and to be read 2a on Thursday next.—(The Lord Ashbourne.) (No. 190.)

  COUNTY AND BOROUGH FRANCHISE ASSIMILATION (LONDON) BILL.
  [SECOND READING.]
  Order of the Day for the Second Reading read.
  LORD FARQUHAR: My Lords, so complicated is the subject of the qualification of an elector that any measure which simplifies it will, I am sure, be welcomed by your Lordships. The object of this Bill, which we may justly term a non-contentious Bill, is to assimilate the County Council with the parochial register, and to obviate the anomaly of two classes of electors in London for local government purposes; an anomaly that will become more marked when the elec-
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  tions under the London Government Act, 1899. take place. The duties of the local and central authorities in London are so analogous that the distinction in the franchise was founded on no principle of logic, economy, or convenience. On the contrary, it has caused a great deal of confusion, and has made the registration both complicated and expensive. This Bill does not in any way interfere with the Parliamentary franchise, nor does it create a new franchise. It has to do purely with the domestic affairs of London, and is introduced to remedy a disparity in the electorate which has no analogy in the rest of the country. It will remove an anomaly in the London franchise by which those who hold the lodger and" service franchise — about 100,000 in number—while having the right to vote in parochial elections, are denied the right to vote for the County Council. The Bill will also put the register for the London County Council and the register for the new London Borough Councils on the same basis, thereby contributing greatly to the simplification of the preparation of the voters' lists. In 1894 lodgers and service voters were allowed to vote for vestries and poor-law guardians, the former being the rate-paying authority, and the two together being responsible for two-thirds of the rate levied. We contend that a man who is entitled to vote for the rate-paying authority should also be entitled to vote for the spending body. This discrepancy in the franchise may be termed of fortuitous creation, and its assimilation would be but a logical evolution. The London County Council have unanimously approved of this change, and the Bill has passed through the House of Commons without any objection being raised to it.
  Moved, "That the Bill be now read a second time."—(Lord Farquhar.)
  LORD TWEEDMOUTH: My Lords, I am very glad to be able to support most cordially the Second Reading of this Bill, and I do so because on this side of the House all extensions of the franchise are welcomed, even though, as in this case, they are not likely to operate favourably to our own cause. The effect of this Bill is to add three classes of electors to the county council electors in London. At this moment the London County Council

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  electors consist of two classes—householders and women. To those classes will be added by this Bill lodgers, service voters, and freeholders. I am afraid we who hold Liberal opinions do not expect to get much advantage from the addition of those voters to the register; but we welcome the power being given them to vote, because we believe that the wider the basis of the franchise the better it will be for the country. We may, however, justly complain that when this measure was brought in the opportunity was not taken to remove some of the gross anomalies which exist with regard to the period required for the qualification to vote. The desire of the promoters of this Bill is to enable more people to vote, and one would have imagined that they would also have endeavoured to make it as easy as possible for men to get upon the register. They make no change in regard to the period of occupation, and a man who enters into occupation in August will still be unable to get upon the register for twenty-three months. That is a gross anomaly in the present law, and one which should be remedied. Even though it may be argued that it is not desirable to reduce the period of qualification for the Parliamentary franchise, surely for local purposes the qualification might be reduced to six months. If this were done a great boon would be conferred upon Londoners. I think a considerable burden of responsibility lies on the promoters of the Bill for not having proposed some reform in the way I have suggested.
  LORD JAMES OF HEREFORD: My Lords, I have been asked to state what are the views of the Local Government Board with regard to this Bill, which is not without its importance as a matter of principle, the proposition before the House being to add some 100,000 voters to the register of the London County Council. The men it is now proposed to enfranchise have not hitherto been placed on the register of voters for the London County Council, in pursuance of the principle that those who elect the body who impose a rate should bear the burden of that rate. In 1894 the lodger and service suffrages were conferred in respect of the vestries. By the Act of last year the London municipalities became the successors of the vestries, and had conferred
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  upon them the same powers of voting as the vestries had. That being so, the anomaly arises that there are in London two rating bodies—the London County Council and the municipalities. The object of my noble friend's Bill is that throughout the rating area the franchise shall be the same. The Government do not oppose the Bill, but they wish it to be quite understood that the measure must not be taken as a precedent for endeavouring to depart from the principle I have mentioned in cases where the anomaly which prevails in London does not exist. And if, therefore, it should be sought to extend these non-rate paying branches to provincial county councils and municipal boroughs, the question involved must be regarded as being in no way affected by the fact that this Bill has been allowed to become law.
  On Question, agreed to. Bill read a accordingly, and committed to a Committee of the whole House on Friday next.

  ATTENDANCE OF PEERS ON COMMITTEES.
  THE EARL OF CAMPERDOWN: The information for which I move is, I believe, kept in the House, and if it were printed and circulated, it would give a good deal of valuable information to your Lordships. I therefore move for the Return standing in my name.
  Moved, for a Return showing the attendance of individual Peers on Select Committees in 1897, 1898, 1899; and distinguishing Committees on Private Bills.—(Earl of Camperdown.)
  On Question, agreed to.
  Return ordered to be laid before the House.

  WAR OFFICE RECONSTRUCTION AND ARMY REORGANISATION.
  THE DUKE OF BEDFORD: My Lords, in asking the noble Marquess the Secretary of State for War the question standing in my name, I need not detain your Lordships by a long list of military deficiencies, or a long indictment of the War Office. I think I may safely claim a concensus of opinion as to the necessity for the reconstruction of the War Office. I use the word "reconstruction" in the

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  sense of building anew upon a cleared site, as opposed to patching up an antiquated structure. I apprehend that a patch-work policy would not be acceptable to your Lordships. For instance, an inquiry into the War Office by officials and ex-officials, or still more useless, an inquiry by means of a Departmental Committee. Possibly the noble Marquess could indicate in outline the principles upon which the Department over which he presides will in due course be reconstructed. At the very beginning of the South African campaign the Commander in Chief advised the country that war was a game of ups and downs. But of the latter we have experienced a greater share than can be fairly ascribed to bad luck alone. It is from the real reasons for our reverses, and not from the supposed causes of our successes, that the most valuable lessons of the war are to be learnt. It is impossible to conceive any scheme for Army reorganisation at the present moment which has not been preceded by an inquiry into the reasons for our failures in South Africa. But, my Lords, if such an inquiry is to command the confidence of the country, if it is to arouse that national interest in military matters indispensable for the future development of the Army, its results must be submitted to the judgment of Parliament. It is essential that Parliament should know the advice upon which the Secretary of State founds his plan of reconstruction. When we know the real reasons for our disasters, then we can take the first step towards the reorganisation of the Army. The second step is the formation of a correct idea of the military needs of the Empire. Previous to the present war, the defence of the Empire was considered amply secured by two Army corps for service abroad, and one for home defence. In round numbers that means 120,000 men. We have now an army of more than 220,000 men in South Africa, in addition to our home forces. With an error so colossal as the basis of all calculation in time of peace, there is small wonder that war should have revealed dangerous military deficiencies. This miscalculation seems to me in no way the fault of the War Office. The War Office was told, I presume, by the Cabinet that its maximum output was to be three army corps. On the outbreak of war it was not three army corps but the equivalent of six
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  army corps for which provision was wanted. It is most important that the country should know who will be responsible in the future for calculating the military needs of the Empire. The reorganisation of the Army is one matter. To fill the ranks with men of the right stamp is another. Unless Her Majesty's Government can solve the problem of recruiting, manifestly the solution of all other military problems will be of no value, because the Army will have no men. The receipt for increasing the quantity of recruits has hitherto been to diminish their quality—that is, to lower the standard of physical development. The noble Marquess has told us that he does not think an increase of pay for the Army and the Militia would give results proportionate to the increased expenditure. I do not know why the noble Marquess considers that the Army should form the solitary exception to those influences which always have governed, and still govern, the labour market of the world, namely wages. I recognise that to increase the pay of the Army is to incur a great cost which is in itself a great evil. But in my opinion conscription is a greater evil, and the greatest evil of all is a wholly insufficient Army. It is scarcely possible to separate at the present moment the reconstruction of the War Office and the reorganisation of the Army from the still wider question of Imperial defence. Until a few months ago it was an article of faith in this country that the fate of the Empire would be decided by battles fought either upon the sea, or, if the worst came to the worst, at home. Recent events have shown that such decisive battles may be fought, and probably will be fought, neither upon the sea nor in the United Kingdom, but in Africa, in Asia, or in some other continent. Hence the pressing need of a comprehensive plan for Imperial defence. From among the many lessons of the war in South Africa, one stands out like stone, and it is this, that without the help of our colonies we should never have gone through with the war in the way which we have done. Presumably in any scheme of Imperial defence the colonies will be invited to join, as may seem good to themselves. Then, if we are to have an Imperial Army, is it to be a paper army only, or will it be assembled from time to time for the purposes of training and comradeship? Now,

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  an Imperial Army can no more be trained for the field in England than a racehorse can be trained to gallop in a kitchen garden. Where, then, is the Imperial Army of the future to receive its field training? Is such a force to be trained where the Imperial Army now is, and where a strong garrison must always be maintained, in South Africa? South Africa is close to India and the East. It is not far from Egypt and the Mediterranean. It is a half-way house for Australia and New Zealand. It is not, as we gratefully acknowledge, beyond the reach of Canada. Then the climate is magnificent, and the area for field training and manœuvres unlimited. Finally, the concentration for the field training of an Imperial Army in South Africa would perfect our system of sea transport for cavalry, artillery, and infantry, and enable us to acquire that rapid mobility which the defence of our Empire absolutely demands. I have brought these questions to the notice of the noble Marquess, well knowing that it is impossible for Her Majesty's Government to deal with them during this session; but before next session we hope to welcome home a victorious army. My Lords, I fear lest that triumphant return, by obliterating the memory of disasters, should become the means of establishing more firmly than ever that old order which ought now to change and give place to the new. I therefore beg to ask the noble Marquess whether Her Majesty's Government intend to inquire into the deficiencies of our military system, and to submit the results to Parliament with a view to the reconstruction of the War Office and the reorganisation of the Army.
  THE SECRETARY OF STATE FOR WAR (The Marquess of LANSDOWNE): My Lords, we are most anxious to withhold from your Lordships' House no information with regard to military matters which you may reasonably desire to possess, and I think I shall not be contradicted when I say that during the debates that have taken place this year we have invariably given the House frank and full information both with regard to matters of fact, and, as far as possible, with regard to our own intentions. But I think the questions which the noble Duke has addressed to me carry us to a point at which I may fairly ask, and at which I think the noble Duke himself
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  will almost expect me to ask, for your forbearance. Indeed, the noble Duke, in his concluding words, made it, I think, pretty clear that he did not expect that I should give him a full and detailed answer upon the many points he referred to. He asked me whether it was our intention to institute an inquiry into the deficiencies of our military system; whether that inquiry would be made with a view to the reconstruction of the War Office and the reorganisation of the Army; whether I could place him in possession of the principles upon which that reconstruction was to take place; whether we were informing ourselves as to the causes of the reverses which had been sustained during the course of the South African campaign; whether we were seriously addressing ourselves to the recruiting problem; whether we wore forecasting the military needs of the Empire; whether we were elaborating a scheme of Imperial defence in which the colonies were to have a part, and which, as I understand the noble Duke, was to involve a system of training the Imperial Army partly upon the sea and partly in South Africa; and finally, whether we wore going to submit the whole of our proposals to Parliament. I venture to say that in the history of Parliament so many formidable questions were never compressed into a speech so brief as that which the noble Duke has delivered. I cannot give the noble Duke information upon the whole of those points—upon some of them we do not possess the information ourselves; but if the object of the noble Duke is to obtain from me a general assurance that it is the intention of the Government to spare no effort to turn to account the experience acquired during the course of the present campaign, that assurance I give him in the strongest and most unqualified terms. I say, further, that if the conclusions to be derived from that experience are such as to lead to the belief that changes are necessary either in the organisation of the Army or in the system under which the Army is administered, we shall approach those questions with minds unbiassed by preconceived opinions, and with the determination to ask Parliament for the means of giving effect to any changes which may be proved to be necessary. But in a case of this kind it is surely true to say that the only solid foundation upon which we can set to work

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  is a foundation of ascertained facts, and with many of the facts we must perforce at present be but imperfectly acquainted while the war is still in progress. Until those facts have been ascertained I do not think it will be possible for me to give the noble Duke any information as to the extent to which either the reorganisation of the Army or the reconstruction of the War Office might possibly be desirable; still less can I tell him, even in outline, upon what principles that reconstruction is likely to proceed. Reorganisation and reconstruction are very big words; they are words which seem to afford infinite consolation to the minds of many people who use them; but they are not only very big words, they are very vague words, and I confess I prefer not to use them until I have in my mind a clear idea of the meaning which I wish to convey by their use. That this war will lead to changes in the organisation of the Army, in its training and equipment, I feel myself very little doubt. But I would put it to the noble Duke and to your Lordships' House that we can scarcely condemn the whole of the old machinery, we can scarcely begin to construct new machinery, until we have made ourselves fully aware of the extent to which the old machinery has broken down, the points at which it has failed, and, above all, whether the failure has been due to imperfections of the machinery itself or to errors on the part of those who had control of and directed its operations. While the war in South Africa is still in progress we cannot obtain evidence upon many of these points. We cannot yet obtain a class of evidence to which I, for my part, attach very great importance—I mean the evidence not of the critics, but of the men who have seen the conduct of these operations upon the spot, and to whom the success or failure of the present system has been a matter of life or death. When the campaign is over, as we all hope it will be before long, we shall, I have no doubt, have ample opportunities of conferring with distinguished soldiers who will be able to give us most valuable evidence on points of that kind. I would add that whore the war has taught us already a lesson which appeared to us clear and unmistakable we have not hesitated to take action. I cite in support of this what we are doing in regard to the increase and rearmament of the artillery, which is already proceed-
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  ing; I cite also the large measures which are now in progress for building up a sufficient reserve of military stores and equipment of all kinds, stores which have, in my opinion, at no time been maintained at a sufficient amount, and which we mean to accumulate in large quantities, and under conditions which I hope will render it incumbent not only upon us, but upon those who may follow us to make good at once any deficiency in those reserves created by the exceptional demands of a great campaign. The noble Duke indicated not obscurely his own preference for an external inquiry of some kind. I should like to throw out for his consideration, and that of those who believe that Committees and Commissions are a panacea for all the ills of the body politic, this reflection—if you wish for speedy and effectual improvements, are you quite sure that inquiry by Royal Commission is the best way of obtaining it? When you have collected those men of sound commonsense—who, the experience of the last few days seems to show, are either very rare or very reluctant to place their services at the disposal of the country— they are apt to proceed with very great deliberation and care. The result is, a long time passes while the inquiry is proceeding, and you are very fortunate indeed if you get advice on which you can act at once without further delay and without further investigation. With regard to the noble Duke's suggestion that whatever we may determine to do should be fully submitted to the judgment of Parliament, I cannot conceive that any considerable changes either in Army organisation or administration should be made except under conditions which would leave to Parliament the fullest opportunity of criticism and review. I feel perfectly confident that whatever is done the noble Duke and other Members of the House who take an active interest in the affairs of the Army will not be denied the amplest opportunity of discussing and considering our proposals.
  EARL SPENCER: My Lords, I think we ought to be very grateful to the noble Duke for having brought this subject forward. I think we may also congratulate ourselves on the fact that the criticisms of the War Office and our generals in the field have been free from the party spirit which marked the time

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  of the great Duke of Wellington and the Crimean war. No doubt that has been brought about, to a great extent, by modern facilities of communication. We now have the telegraph at work, and any criticism that is made here is immediately reported, not only to our generals, who may be affected, but also to our opponents in the field. As I have said, I think it is a matter of congratulation that this change has taken place. But at the same time it is imperative on the Government to look facts in the face and see, not only what defects exist in the organisation of the Army at home, but what militates against success in carrying on war in a foreign country. No doubt things have taken place which show the necessity for changes. We think that the opportunity must be seized to look into these matters in time of peace, in order to make such arrangements as will prevent their recurrence. We shall probably be obliged to keep a considerable force in South Africa for some time to come, but the training of the Army will surely take place in England rather than in South Africa. I can hardly think that the noble Duke means that the main instruction should be given to our Army in South Africa. The noble Duke seems to look for some Commission or inquiry independent of Her Majesty's Government. I venture to differ from him entirely in that. I think the Government of the day themselves must be responsible for a thorough, entire, and complete investigation into the management of the war, and if they do not deal with it completely and satisfactorily it will be for Parliament to take vigorous action if they consider the action of the Government is not sufficient. I hope no Commission will be appointed, and that the Government will investigate the whole matter themselves.
  THE EARL OF WEMYSS: My Lords, I am very glad to find myself in agreement with the Secretary of State for War on two points. He said that reorganisation and reconstruction were two very large words, and with that description I agree. I think the noble Duke has done good service in bringing this matter forward, but I agree with the Secretary of State for War that the words reorganisation and reconstruction do not apply to the situation. Attention is required not to reconstruction and reorganisation, but to what is signified by another big word
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  —namely, "administration." I believe that our Army system is perfectly right and sound if properly administered. Thus we found ourselves in South Africa without big movable guns of position, such as the Boers had; such, too, as we found, through the taking of the Tienstin arsenal, that the Chinese have in abundance. And had it not been for the naval guns, thirty-five of which were borrowed from the Navy and made available by Captain Scott—a service for which a C.B. appears to be a poor reward —we should, as President Kruger intended, have been driven into the sea. The irony of the situation is that we had in 1860 big movable guns of position, but the improvement in the field gun rendered these obsolete, and no step had from that time to this been taken to obtain a big movable gun of position, the relative up-to-date equivalent of the gun of 1860. Now, this is an administrative scandal. It is not, I repeat, a question of reorganisation or reconstruction, but of administration. There is someone responsible in the organisation of the War Office for this deficiency. That man ought to be found out and hanged.
  LORD TWEEDMOUTH: My Lords, I wish to say a word on a subject which has not been dealt with—namely, the pressing need of attention being given to the question of remounts. This war has been essentially a cavalry war. But again and again throughout the campaign we have seen our cavalry helpless for want of horses. Porter's Brigade, which was sent to the assistance of Broadwood at Koornspruit, and which should have had 1,500 men, arrived with only 150. I heard of another brigade being ordered south from Pretoria which should have had 1,500 horses but which only had 300, and I am told that the horses which they did have were not capable in many cases of standing a three days march. I believe that many of the difficulties with regard to remounts might have been avoided if proper arrangements had been made in the past for the supply of horses as they were required. We should have done much better if, before the men went out, horses had been gathered in South Africa ready for them. Even in this country the whole system of the purchase of remounts has been one which would not commend itself to impartial inquirers and observers; £30 and £40 have been paid

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  for horses which turned out useless in South Africa, quite breaking down under the severe test applied to them. I hope the question of remounts will be carefully inquired into, because in the immediate future, more than in the past, our success in the battlefield will depend on the efficiency of our cavalry.
  THE MARQUESS OF GRANBY: My Lords, the noble Marquess the Secretary of State for War justly took upon his Department credit for the greatly improved condition of stores and equipment—
  THE MARQUESS OF LANSDOWNE: What I said was that our reserves of military stores had, in my opinion, never been as large as they should have been, and that we were already, as one of the lessons of the war, greatly increasing the amount of those reserves.
  THE MARQUESS OF GRANBY: I apologise for not quoting the noble Marquess correctly, but we mean very much the same thing. I would point out that there are deficiencies still existing in regard to our troops at home. I am cognisant myself of one regiment of Volunteers, consisting of two battalions, which is going into camp within the next ten days. They would go in 1,500 strong, but are 350 rifles short. A recruit without a rifle is not much good, and I think this is a point which deserves the careful attention of the War Office.
  LORD HENEAGE: My Lords, I should like to ask why faith has not been kept with the Militia regiments embodied in the spring in the matter of tents. At the present moment, instead of every officer having a tent to himself, as Volunteer officers have when they are sent into camp, two officers have to go into one tent. Exactly the same thing happens with regard to the men in their proportions, and the men have been crowded to a far greater extent than was anticipated. I should like to support the observations of Lord Tweedmouth. There cannot be the slightest doubt that over and over again troops in South Africa have been obliged to stand still because they had no horses for the cavalry, and when they had them, many of the horses could not do the work. I venture to say that in the recent marches in the Transvaal there
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  have been more horses tethered behind wagons without saddles than there have been with men on their backs. I hope the question of remounts will be one to which the Government will give their earliest attention.
  THE MARQUESS OF LANSDOWNE: It does not, I am sorry to say, at all surprise me to find that there has been a short supply of tents, and that consequently the men have been crowded into a less number of tents than would otherwise have been the case. The difficulty of obtaining tents is enormous. The number of contractors who are able to supply tents of suitable quality is very limited indeed, and if my noble friend is able to put me in the way of discovering new sources of supply from which additional tents can be obtained he will earn my gratitude and that of the Director-General of Ordnance, who for many months past has been at his wits end over this question. With regard to remounts, I am quite ready to believe that the experience of this war may have some very valuable and instructive results; but I rather wish to demur to the suggestion made by the noble Lord on the front bench opposite (Lord Tweedmouth), and, I think, repeated by the noble Lord below the gangway (Lord Heneage), that because at particular moments our troops had been brought to a standstill for the want of horses, that was necessarily due to shortcomings in the supply of remounts. We all know that for many weeks Lord Roberts was dependent for all his supplies upon a single line of railway, and that it was only with the greatest difficulty, in the earlier days after his arrival at Bloemfontein, and again at Pretoria, that he was able to secure for his troops the food and forage which was essential for their existence. It was perfectly well known that at that moment he was unable to get up the horses which were actually in the Cape Colony, as they had either to travel on their legs or to wait until other more important stores and equipments had been conveyed to the front. With regard to the complaint of my noble friend below the gangway (the Marquess of Granby), I am afraid that it may be the case that the corps in which he is interested have had to wait for rifles; but the noble Marquess must be aware that the demands on the Ordnance Department have been

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  enormous of late, and it is quite conceivable that from entirely unavoidable circumstances rifles may not have been supplied as punctually as would otherwise be the case.

  GIBRALTAR, MALTA, AND HONG KONG — DOCK ACCOMMODATION — NEW WORKS.
  VISCOUNT SIDMOUTH: My Lords, I rise to ask Her Majesty's Government whether information can be supplied respecting the present condition and progress of the new works at Gibraltar dockyard and breakwater; and whether the proposed new docks at Malta and Hong Kong are in progress. I am sorry to have to trouble the noble Earl who represents the Admiralty in this House, and who, I am sure, we all congratulate on the very high position to which he has been appointed;* but I am obliged to do so owing to the Naval Estimates not being supplied to this House. The three docks at Gibraltar are, I understand, still under construction, and only one is capable of receiving a first-class ironclad. Since the zealous and able administration of the noble Earl opposite (Earl Spencer), we have been promised an additional dock at Malta, where there are at present four docks, but only one of which, I think, is capable of receiving the large vessels now built for the Navy. This is the only accommodation we have for the largely increased number of ships we are obliged to maintain in the Mediterranean. The breakwater is another question on which I desire information. It must be obvious to everyone of your Lordships that the dock accommodation for our squadrons ought to be very greatly increased, more especially when we look at the fact that a foreign nation has very large dock accommodation at three or four ports in the Mediterranean. It is necessary that we should have accommodation for the repair of our ships in case of emergency. The docks at Gibraltar not being ready, we should have to fall back upon the small accommodation which Malta provides. A promise was also made of a dock at Hong Kong. So far as I can ascertain there is only one dock there, and that is not capable of receiving vessels of the size we are now sending out to the East.
  * It was announced on the 14th July that the Earl of Hopetoun had been appointed first Governor-General of the Commonwealth of Australia.
  THE EARL OF HOPETOUN: My Lords, full information as to the progress made with these works up to the end of February of this year will be found in the First Lord's statement accompanying the Naval Estimates for 1900–1.* Since that time a further length of 1,000 feet of the detached mole at Gibraltar has been brought above water level. The dam for No. 3 Dock has been completed, and the enclosed area is being pumped out. The progress made with the works generally is satisfactory. It is not expected that a contract for the construction of the new docks at Malta will be let before November next, but in the meantime the clearing and levelling of the site is proceeding rapidly. At Hong Kong the main works are in process of construction, but the dock cannot be begun until further progress has been made with the reclamation.
  EARL SPENCER: My Lords, though it is absolutely essential, in view of the increased number of ships kept in the Mediterranean, that there should be increased accommodation both at Malta and Gibraltar, it can hardly be expected that we should have at those places accommodation as good as that which the French have in the same waters, for your Lordships must remember that these are the home dockyards of France, which correspond to Plymouth and Portsmouth in this country. With regard to Hong Kong, everybody must admit, particularly in view of the lamentable circumstances which have recently occurred in China, the immense importance of keeping up a sufficient fleet in those seas. As to the works at Hong Kong, I confess that I was not altogether satisfied with the site taken for them, and I am still rather afraid that the site will not be sufficiently large to give all the accommodation that will be required in the near future. At the present moment, as I understand it, Her Majesty's Government are proposing to build another dock at Victoria Island on the Hong Kong side of the bay, and I would like to know from the noble Earl whether it is intended that it should accommodate the largest cruiser or battleship of the present day.
  VISCOUNT SIDMOUTH: The noble Earl did not say when the works at Gibraltar were likely to be completed,
  * See The Parliamentary Debates [Fourth Series], Vol. lxxix., Appendix.

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  or when one of the docks was likely to be used.
  THE EARL OF HOPETOUN: I am afraid, with the knowledge which is at present at my disposal, that I cannot answer either of the questions which have been put to me.

  DEATH CERTIFICATION.
  LORD MONKSWELL: My Lords, I rise to call attention to the Report of the Select Committee of the House of Commons in 1893 on Death Certification, stating that "the existing procedure plays into the hands of the criminal classes"; and to ask whether the Government propose to introduce legislation in accordance with the recommendations of the Committee. I do not propose to go further back into the history of this matter than 6th January, 1893, when Mr. Asquith, who was then Home Secretary, received a deputation consisting of, amongst others, the eminent surgeon, Sir Henry Thompson, who made a speech in which he showed that the state of the law with regard to death certification was extremely inefficient, and, indeed, dangerous to the public safety. He showed that a large number of burials took place without any death certificate being produced at all; that in Edinburgh, for instance, as many as 8 per cent. of the burials were uncertificated; that in the remoter parts of Scotland between 25 and 45 per cent. of burials were of persons whose deaths had not been certified; and that in a great many cases the certificates when produced were absolutely valueless, as they were either given by incompetent persons or by competent persons on insufficient information. Mr. Asquith was very much impressed with the statement of Sir Henry Thompson, and he formed a Select Committee of the House of Commons to take the matter into consideration. Sir Walter Foster, who was then Secretary to the Local Government Board, was in the chair, and the Committee, in the course of their Report, used the words which I have put into my motion. They said that—
  "The existing procedure plays into the hands of the criminal classes."
  They also said—
  "The Committee are much impressed with the serious possibilities implied in a system which permits death and burial to take place
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  without the production of satisfactory evidence of the cause of death. … Your Committee are convinced that vastly more deaths occur annually from foul play and criminal neglect than the law recognises."
  In 1896, Sir Richard Quain, as President of the General Medical Council, had a correspondence on the subject with the Registrar General, but all he could get out of him was an acknowledgment that the law was in an exceedingly bad state. Nothing could be done at that time. In May, 1899, the General Medical Council again took the matter up, and the following resolution was passed—
  "That the President be authorised to forward to the Registrar General the whole of the correspondence that has passed on the subject of death certification, and to make further representations to the Registrar General as to the importance and urgency of the question."
  Since my notice has been on the Paper I have had a letter from the master of the workhouse of. St. Olave's Union, Bermondsey, stating that he is exceedingly dissatisfied with the present state of the law. I do not think the remedy that ought to be applied is far to seek. There is another part of the Report of the Committee that I ought to read as bearing upon the remedy. With regard to the practice of cremation the Committee say—
  "Your Committee are of opinion that with the precautions adopted in connection with cremation as carried out by the Cremation Society, there is little probability that cases of crime would escape detection."
  The question I should like to ask the Local Government Board is this: Why should the law efficiently protect only members of the Cremation Society? Mr. Asquith considered that the time was ripe for legislation, and in 1895, before he quitted office, he had, I understand, given some consideration to the preparation of a Bill on this matter. I do not, of course, suggest that Her Majesty's Government should introduce legislation this session; but I understand that the usual way in which Ministers spend their vacation is in considering legislation that they wish to bring forward in the following session. I have no reason to suppose that on this occasion Ministers will not comply with that time-honoured custom, and I hope that while they are giving the question of legislation their best consideration they will also consider the question of efficient death certificates worthy of their attention.
  LORD HARRIS: My Lords, I am not prepared to say how the President of the Local Government Board intends to spend the next vacation, nor, indeed, am I in a position to say how he has spent past vacations. But I can assure the noble Lord that this matter, which undoubtedly is a very important one, has engaged Mr. Chaplin's attention for some time with a view to bringing in a Bill. There are, however, a good many difficulties connected with it, and he is at present having inquiry made by the officers of the Local Government Board with a view to getting over those difficulties which have presented themselves at different times to those who were anxious to legislate on the subject. He is in hopes that at no very distant date he will see a way of overcoming those difficulties, and be able to introduce a Bill on the lines suggested by the noble Lord.
  LORD MONKSWELL: I should have been glad if the noble Lord had specified the difficulties which he says stand in the way of legislation on this question. I cannot understand how there can be any difficulties.
  House adjourned at Five minutes before Six of the clock, to Thursday next, half-past Ten of the clock.