Lords Sitting of 26 February 1900

LORD DUNBOYNE.
Report made from the Lord Chancellor that the right of Robert St. John Fitz-Walter Butler, Baron of Dunboyne, to vote at the elections of Representative Peers for Ireland has been established to the satisfaction of the Lord Chancellor; read, and ordered to lie on the Table.

PRIVATE BILL BUSINESS.
The LORD CHANCELLORacquainted the House that the Clerk of the Parliaments had laid upon the Table the Certificates from the Examiners that the further Standing Orders applicable to the following Bills have been complied with—
Great Grimsby Street Tramways [H.L.].
Milford Docks [H.L.].
And the Certificates that the Standing-Orders applicable to the following Bills have been complied with:—
Hammond (G. H.) Company.
London United Tramways.
Also the Certificate that the Standing Orders applicable to the following Bill have not been complied with—
Christehurch, Bournemouth, and winton Tramways.
And also the Certificate that the further Standing Orders applicable to the following Bill have not been complied with:—
Whitechapel and Bow Railway [H.L.].
The same were ordered to lie on the Table.

PRIVATE BILL BUSINESS.

  BIRMINGHAM (KING EDWARD THE SIXTH) SCHOOLS BILL [H.L.]
  BIRMINGHAM UNIVERSITY BILL [H.L.].
  Reports of Her Majesty's Attorney General, received, and ordered to be on the Table.

  GREAT GRIMSBY STREET TRAMWAYS BILL [H.L.]
  Examiner's Certificate of non-compliance with the Standing Orders referred to the Standing Orders Committee on Monday next.

  COWES PIER BILL [H.L.]
  GLASGOW BUILDING REGULATIONS BILL [H.L.].
  NEATH HARBOUR BILL [H.L.].
  RAWMARSH URBAN DISTRICT COUNCIL (TRAMWAYS) BILL [H.L.].
  SOUTH SHIELDS CORPORATION BILL [H.L.].
  GLYNCORRWG URBAN DISTRICT COUNCIL GAS BILL [H.L.].

  WALSALL CORPORATION BILL [H.L.]
  Committed; the Committees to be proposed by the Committee of Selection.
  BARRY RAILWAY (STEAM VESSELS) BILL [H.L.].
  BRISTOL WATER BILL [H.L.].
  BEXHILL AND ROTHERFIELD RAILWAY BILL [H.L.].
  DORKING WATER BILL [H.L.].
  LIVERPOOL OVERHEAD RAILWAY BILL [H.L.].
  MANCHESTER SHIP CANAL BILL [H.L.].
  SOUTH ESSEX WATER BILL [H.L.].
  GREAT CENTRAL RAILWAY BILL [H.L.].
  CORK, BANDON, AND SOUTH COAST RAILWAY RILL [H.L.].
  GLASGOW AND SOUTH-WESTERN RAILWAY BILL [H.L.].
  NORTH BRITISH RAILWAY BILL [H.L.].

  MIDLAND OREAT WESTERN RAILWAY OF IRELAND BILL [H.L.]
  Read 2a.
  LEITH BURGH PROVISIONAL ORDER BILL [H.L.]
  Order of the Day for the Second Reading read, and discharged.
RETURNS, REPORTS, ETC.
  EDUCATION (SCOTLAND).
  Code of Regulations for Day Schools 1900.

  TRADE REPORTS (ANNUAL SERIES).
  No. 2383. Servia.
  No. 2384. The Somali Coast.
  No. 2385. Greece (Thessaly).
  Presented [by Command], and ordered to lie on the Table.

  SUPERANNUATION
  Treasury Minute, dated 20th February, 1900, declaring that for the due and efficient discharge of the duties of the post of Head Master of the Royal College of Art, professional or other peculiar qualifications not ordinarily to be acquired in the public service are requisite.
  SEA FISHERIES REGULATION ACT, 1888.
  Order made by the Board of Trade under the provisions of the above Act for uniting the Lancashire and Western Sea Fisheries Districts; together with report by inspector on inquiry.

  SUPREME COURT OF JUDICATURE.
  Account of the receipts and expenditure of the Paymaster-General on behalf of the Supreme Court of Judicature, in respect of the funds of suitors of the Court in the year ended 28th February, 1899: also account of the National Debt Commissioners for the same period in respect of funds held by them on behalf of the Supreme Court of Judicature; together with the report of the Comptroller and Auditor-General thereon.
  Laid before the House (pursuant to Act), and ordered to lie on the Table.

  EMPLOYMENT OF RETIRED SAILORS AND SOLDIERS.
  LORD MONKSWELL: My Lords, I rise, in accordance with the notice standing in my name on the Paper, to call attention to the Report of the Select Committee, presided over by Sir George Chesney, on the Employment of Retired Sailors and Soldiers; and, in view of the probable glut in the market for unskilled labour when the term of service for Reservists and the Auxiliary forces on active service with the colours abroad has expired, to move—
  "That in the opinion of this House measures should be taken to give soldiers, on being drafted into the Reserve, the best chance of obtaining employment by providing them, previous to their discharge from the colours, while not on active service, with the opportunity of enjoying as large an amount of technical instruction as is compatible with the due performance of military duties, and that such duties should, as a temporary expedient, be lightened by the employment
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  of outside labour in the discharge of fatigue work."
  I hope it is not necessary for me to tell the noble Marquess that I am exceedingly reluctant to encroach upon his time at the present moment, when he has such a weight of responsibility and anxiety cast upon him, and I trust that the events of the last few days have lightened that anxiety. Perhaps the noble Marquess regards my motion as inopportune. I entirely agree with him that now is not the proper time to enter into the details of the scheme that he has shadowed forth for the permanent increase in the numbers and efficiency of the Army; but my motion does not deal with details at all. It goes to the root of the whole of our military system, and is, I venture to think, a pressing matter. In a short time—I hope in a very short time, namely, at the end of this war—the noble Marquess will have an excellent opportunity of putting into practice the recommendations of the Chesney Committee, and it is necessary that he should prepare the ground at once. I dare say the noble Marquess will think I am an irreclaimable faddist when I tell him that it appears to me that if he is bent upon increasing the permanent establishment of the Army there are only two courses open to him—to educate the soldier and make him fit for civil life, or else have recourse to conscription. Under the voluntary system we must popularise the Army, and, in my opinion, the only effectual way of doing that is to fit the soldier as best we can for the duties of civil life. I think that in doing so we shall make him as a soldier' not less valuable, but more valuable, than he has hitherto been. If there is one lesson more than another we have learned by this war, it is that what we want in all ranks of the Army is initiative, and that intelligence as well as bravery and discipline is absolutely necessary in modern warfare. With regard to conscription, the noble Marquess the Secretary for State has stamped heavily upon the noble Earl who sits on the cross benches, and it seems to me that, holding the view that he does, he could not have done otherwise. The Secretary of State has taken a momentous course in deciding absolutely against conscription even for home service, and I venture to repeat what I said on that subject some little time ago, namely, that

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  it is idle to suppose that, if the Secretary of State was unable to obtain the extra 25,000 men he said were necessary in 1898, he can obtain by voluntary enlistment under the terms he now proposes a much larger addition to the Army than 25,000. In July last, when the noble. Marquess made this statement, I suggested that there was an inducement I should like to see tried. I said that it would be well to be able to tell the recruit that while he was serving he would have some opportunity of receiving manual training. The noble Marquess the Secretary of State stamped upon me as heavily as he stamped upon the noble Earl on the cross benches. He told me he did not think it would be any inducement to recruiting to give soldiers several hours schooling a week. That was a travesty of what I said. When I speak of education I do not mean mere book learning. I mean education in the widest, and, I venture to say, the most correct sense; that is to say, the drawing forth of every faculty that a man possesses, whether of mind or body, in such a way that he may be able to use those faculties to the best advantage of himself and of the community. The noble Marquess has hitherto expressed some amount of sympathy with me, but a few days ago he did not express any sympathy at all. I have very often drawn his attention to this matter, but I have not thought tit to weary him by quoting any of the evidence. But, my Lords, I think it is necessary now for me to come to close quarters with the noble Marquess, and adduce, very shortly, the evidence upon which I rely in support of my proposal. I dare say the noble Marquess will tell me that the weight of military opinion is, on the whole, against my proposal. I do not know whether that is so or not; it may be so. But I have, at all events, as the noble Marquess knows very well, a great deal of military opinion in my favour, and I contend that civil opinion has a light to be consulted in this matter as well as military opinion. Officers naturally are solicitous about the soldier as a fighting machine. Their principal interest, very naturally, is with the; soldier while he is with the colours, and in making that statement I do not intend to say anything in any way against the officers. On the contrary, nobody admires more than I do the zeal and the enthusiasism with which they attempt to brighten
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  the lives of the men under their charge, but their principal interest is, as I have said, with the soldiers while they are with the colours. The Secretary of State takes a broader view. He naturally considers that the Army for those who enlist is not a profession at all. Service with the colours is merely an episode in the career of a citizen. The Secretary of State for War is usually a civilian. Why is he usually a civilian? Because it is felt that Army matters should not be looked upon exclusively from a Service point of view. But, as I have said, the Service is to a great extent with me. The first evidence I shall quote to the noble Marquess will be from a lecture which was delivered before the Aldershot Military Society on December 12th, 1889, by (as he then was) Major-General E. F. Chapman, C.B., of the Royal Artillery. On that occasion Lord Wantage was in the chair, and among those who took part in the discussion was the present Adjutant-General, Sir Evelyn Wood. This lecture, with the discussion which followed it, has been printed in a pamphlet, and is still, I believe, on sale at Aldershot. General Chapman is a man whose opinion has a right to be considered in this matter. He was for some time Chief of the Intelligence Department, and was subsequently in command of the Scottish district. I believe he commands that district now, but I am not sure. I quote General Chapman not only because he is a high authority, but because he has expressed my views very much better than I can express them myself. He said, in the course of his lecture—
  "The training of the soldier whilst he is serving with the colours may be divided into, three branches—1st. Military training proper; 2nd. Educational training; 3rd. Special teaching in preparation for employment in cull life. The two last, while they are calculated to raise the status of the Army in the country, and to promote directly the good of the individual, are very important adjuncts of the military training to which the time of the soldier is more particularly devoted, and, unless I am mistaken, they are vital to the development of those faculties and that general intelligence without which, in the present day, he cannot successfully take part in the difficult problems which modern warfare presents."
  Then, my Lords, the gallant General went on to say—
  "A full consideration of the various efforts which have already been made to secure Government employment for reserve soldiers as a matter of privilege has convinced me that

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  the only way by which remunerative civil employment under Government or in the labour market can be secured to soldiers who have completed their period of service with the colours, is by rendering the men themselves, through their Army training, better qualified than others to compete for employment in civil life."
  In the discussion which followed, Sir Evelyn Wood said—
  "We are now working the soldier's muscles more than we used—some of them think too much—and we are working his brains a good deal more. In these respects I agree with the lecturer that we are making a 1,000 per cent. better man of him for the time when he goes out of the Army. I am exceedingly obliged to General Chapman for what he has said about our soldiers, although I do not quite agree with him in everything he has advanced."
  Lieutenant-Colonel E. T. H. Hutton, Deputy Assistant Adjutant General, who also took part in the discussion, said—
  "I venture to think that this lecture is one of the most admirable and far-sighted of any we have yet heard before this society. It does appear to me that at this camp of practical instruction—almost the only one with the exception of the Curragh—it is, of all places, the place for this subject to be considered, and for any practical suggestions to be worked out by our staff, regimental and company officers, who are rightly assumed to be responsible for training our men for their further employment in civil life. I may say we all of us accept this responsibility which General Chapman rather doubtingly asks us to do; and in accepting this responsibility we can never forget that we are considering the interests of men who inarch with us, and fight with us, whose interests are wrapped up entirely with ours (luring their period of service, and who are serving in the common cause of our country. I cannot help thinking that we have in our hands, at the present moment, the power of fitting a much larger proportion of men to pass into civil life than we have done heretofore, and I feel sure that if commanding officers would develop their offices and trade shops as much as might be, it would have distinctly good results."
  Major Beresford, of the Royal Engineers, said, in the course of the same discussion—
  "As regards the technical training of soldiers in peace time, I would suggest that a science and art school, as a branch of South Kensington, should be established in the camp. Every large town in England has one, and many of the smaller ones. South Kensington gives large grants of money and sends down qualified teachers to these branches. Such a branch could be organised at once, and would give facilities for the better education of soldiers, such as is provided for artisans in other centres."
  The chairman of the evening, Lord Wantage, after guarding himself by say-
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  ing that he had not had sufficient time to consider the subject as well as he should have liked, said—
  "I think General Chapman puts his finger upon one of the difficulties. I know there is a great desire on the part of civilians to employ soldiers, but I know also that they are frequently disappointed in the soldiers who come to them. I do not say it to the detriment of the soldiers; I believe it arises from causes which have been touched upon—namely, the want of technical training which tits men for civil life. Sir Evelyn Wood has said that it would be well if we could give soldiers some teaching in regimental workshops while serving, and in this I quite agree."
  And he went on to say—
  "I do hope that the regimental officers, of whom the lecturer has spoken in such high terms, and to whom is owing almost all the improvements which have taken place in the lot of the soldier, will still persevere in this direction, and do what is possible to tit him for civil life."
  Lord Wantage concluded his remarks as follows—
  "The Russian soldier can turn his hand to anything, whereas the English soldier is comparatively helpless. This is a deficiency in our system which might be remedied by technical teaching. I very much hope that that light and ventilation so necessary to the evening class rooms may be accorded shortly, and money granted for the purpose."
  Now, my Lords, I come to the Report of Sir George Chesney's Committee. The paragraphs in the final Report are not numbered, but they are numbered in the Chairman's Draft Report: and, referring' to the numbering in the Chairman's Draft Report, the paragraph to which I would first call the noble Marquess's attention is No. 15. In the last part of that paragraph the Committee say—
  "They [the soldiers] enlist at exactly that period of their lives when they might otherwise be learning what would be most useful to them as mechanics, as craftsmen, or in other civil vocations. They have lost many opportunities for establishing connections and. interest; they have saved the rest of the community from the inconvenience and hardship of universal service; and, for a small retaining fee, they have undertaken to return to military life whenever called upon."
  And in paragraph No. 20 the Committee state—
  "Your Committee would suggest that, in the winter months especially, and subject always to the paramount duty of maintaining their military efficiency, soldiers might be given some further encouragement than that which they at present enjoy in attending any courses of instruction, including, those of the

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  National Schools of Technical Education, by which they would be likely to benefit after their term of service with the colours shall be completed. Your Committee would also recommend the further and more frequent employment of soldiers in all industrial work incidental to their daily life and calling."
  I believe the noble Marquess has tried to do something with a view to carrying into effect that recommendation, but I am afraid he has not been very successful. Captain Maud, Brigade Major in the Guards, entered into communication with the Technical Education Board of the London County Council with a view to soldiers being admitted into the Polytechnics, but in the end the Technical Education Board were obliged to reluctantly say that soldiers, or most of them, were too ignorant to profit by the education given in those institutions. The last paragraph in the Report of the Select Committee on Retired Soldiers' and Sailors' Employment is as follows—
  "The Report of the Select Committee of 1876-77, made nearly twenty years ago, dealt mainly with the problem how, in finding civil employment for soldiers and sailors, that particular portion of the community might derive some benefit, But your Committee are of opinion that since that period, during which the short service system has been fully developed, and the labour difficulty has greatly increased, the question has become a much larger one. All authorities are agreed that nothing tends so much to popularise service in the Army as a knowledge on the part of those who serve that they will not find themselves stranded and unable to find work at the end of their military career. And in view of the growing demand for higher wages, side by side with the existence of purely voluntary service, your Committee believe that the recommendations they have now made, if carried out in their integrity, will not only increase the self-respect and efficiency of the soldier, but will also be of great advantage to the State and to the country at large."
  I do not suggest, if it is impracticable to do so, that the noble Marquess the Secretary of State for War should carry out the exact recommendations of the Committee and send soldiers to National schools for technical education. I draw the noble Marquess's attention to the Report, because it proves the absolute necessity of something being done. If your Lordships will glance at the evidence you will, I think, see that the recommendations of the Committee do not err at all in being too drastic. I shall only quote from the evidence of two witnesses. One is Sir Charles Wilson, the late Director-General of Military
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  Education, and the other—even a more important witness still—Mr. C. S. Loch, the secretary of the Charity Organisation Society. Sir Charles Wilson was asked by Mr. Woodall—
  "What are the opportunities enjoyed by a soldier of acquiring anything like a technical training or manual instruction?"
  The answer given by Sir Charles Wilson was that—
  "The only opportunities are in the tailors' shops, the farriers' classes of two months at Aldershot, and the regimental workshops."
  Captain Grice Hutchinson remarked—
  "You have spoken of technical education, and you have said you thought it would be a very good thing, with regard to the soldier obtaining civil employment, if some system of training him for a trade could be carried out besides what you have mentioned?"
  To this Sir Charles Wilson replied in the affirmative. He was then asked—
  "Have you any idea as to how it could be carried out? Do you think, for instance, an establishment such as that at Aldershot would be taken up and welcomed by the soldier?"
  Sir Charles Wilson's answer was—
  "I think the soldiers would attend in winter, not in summer."
  Captain Grice Hutchinson then said—
  "You have never gone much into the question, I suppose; but what sort of technical education do you think would be most desirable—carpentering and shoemaking?"
  Sir Charles Wilson replied—
  "Carpentering, shoemaking, and smith's work."
  Mr. Woodall asked—
  "A soldier has abundant leisure and opportunity, has he not, for spending his time profitably in such homes and institutions as exist in different garrison towns?"
  The answer was—
  "Yes, in the evenings."
  With regard to what I may call the book-learning of the soldier, to which I do not attach so much importance as to manual training, Sir Charles Wilson put in an appendix which, I think, shows a deplorable state of things. He said there was a steady and satisfactory increase in the number of men who hold first and second class certificates, as naturally there would

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  be, considering the general educational progress of the country. But he went on to say—
  "On the other hand, very little move than one-third of the men hold certificates of education, and since the abolition of the compulsory education of recruits there are no means of accurately ascertaining the standard of education of the remaining two-thirds. In 1886—the last year in which the compulsory attendance of recruits at school was required—no less than 3 (i'48 per cent. of the recruits failed to obtain a fourth class certificate of education. The standard of knowledge implied by the possession of this certificate was about equal to Standard II. in civil schools, which children of eight years of age are expected to pass."
  I now come to what I consider the most important evidence of all—the evidence of Mr. Lock, the secretary of the Charity Organisation Society. It appears that the Charity Organisation Society appointed a special committee, which reported in June, 1891, on the homeless poor of London. In the course of their Report the committee said—
  "In the battle of life the soldier is a feeble combatant. He is a man who has been trained up to lean so much on authority and discipline that when turned adrift on the world he is at a loss how to shift for himself."
  That was adopted by the special committee, and quoted from the Annual Report of a House of Shelter for 1890. The Report of the special committee goes on to say—
  "It is worthy to note that, out of seventy-seven homeless soldiers who applied to the St. James's Charity Organisation Committee in 1889, no less than thirty-six had 'very good' discharges, a remarkable fact, even when allowance is made for the leniency with which such discharges are usually given. In striking contrast with the number of soldiers is the absence of naval seamen from the homeless ranks. For instance, at the St. James's Charity Organisation Committee, which has dealt during the last five years with over 1,200 homeless persons, 'a homeless able-bodied seaman from the Navy' appears to he unknown."
  The gist of this Report is that soldiers, although they are brave and disciplined, have but little initiative. The initiative has been, so to speak, drilled out of them. The Report is a scathing condemnation of our present system of training soldier's. This, however, is not the official view. The official view is that all is for the best, and that the soldier is the best possible person to get employment when he joins the Reserves. I hold in my hand a
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  little pamphlet called a "Guide to Obtaining Civil Employment," compiled for the use of soldier's about to be discharged or transferred to the Army Reserve. This, I believe, is not an official book, but it is on sale at Aldershot, and therefore, I suppose, the military authoties do not greatly object to anything that is said in it. I find in this book, which has been brought up to date—the edition I shall quote from is dated 1899—a letter from the Commander-in-Chief dated September 22, 1887. That letter still continues to be quoted, and therefore, I suppose, the Commander-in-Chief still adheres to the opinions he then expressed. This is an extract from his; letter—
  "There can be no doubt that the man who has been for six or seven years a soldier has learnt habits of discipline, obedience, tidiness, cleanliness, and punctuality, that render him most valuable in all positions. He has in our ranks been associated with men of superior position, and has learnt to be what I may term a man of the world, with his wits and intelligence brightened and quickened in a manner that his brother in civil life can never aspire to. In fact, all round, for every occupation in life, he is a far more valuable workman than, the man who has never had any military training."
  Now I would ask, my Lords, how can the Commander-in-Chief reconcile those words with the Report of the Select Committee? This book is on sale at Aldershot. What must the soldier think who buys it, and who sees his comrades experience the greatest difficulty in obtaining employment when they join the Reserve? What must he think of the knowledge of the Commander-in-Chief of the state of the soldier as regards his capacity for civil employment when the latter is constantly told by employers that "my soldiers need apply" because they are not persons fitted for a great many of the occupations of civil life? The noble Marquess now proposes to increase the Regular Army. I would point out that any increase in the numbers of the Regular Army brings not only the difficulty of recruiting, but also the difficulty of subsequent employment of the soldier, and I think that it is highly probable that the noble Marquess may have, instead of increasing the Regular Army, to fall back upon making the Auxiliary forces more efficient. I shall not be sorry if he comes to that conclusion, because it appears to me that the lesson

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  of the war is that there is not such a very great difference in efficiency in the field between the Volunteers and the Regular Army as some people, have supposed. The end of the war will bring the noble Marquess into contact with a very unpleasant labour problem. With regard to the Reservists who will come back, their situations are mostly kept open, but they will displace a certain number of persons who will be cast upon the labour market, which, after a great war, is nearly always in a very glutted condition for unskilled labour; and for Regulars the privileged employment which the noble Marquess is able to give is insufficient now and will be, I am afraid, at the end of the war, very insufficient indeed. What a spectacle it will be for the Secretary of State for War, relying on voluntary enlistment, to see soldiers after an arduous campaign compelled to take refuge in the workhouse or the casual ward. Such a scandal as that must be avoided at any cost. Some of the soldiers will remain in the ranks one, two, three, four, or even five years, and they would welcome any instruction which fitted them for skilled labour when they left the colours. My suggestion that fatigue duties should be done by outside labour would relieve the pressure on the labour market, and. by giving more leisure to the soldier, would facilitate manual instruction. Expediency is not the only argument upon which I base my case. I call in aid of my motion the principle of justice. I say that a man who has voluntarily served for seven years in the Army the best seven years of his life is entitled, even if it is inconvenient and expensive, to have the opportunity in his leisure of getting the best available instruction in the best trades which it is possible to teach. I deeply regret that it should be left to me to take up the question of the education of the soldier. It is such an important and such a far reaching matter that I should have wished, and earnestly wished, that somebody of position and importance in your Lordships' House had taken up the matter: but as it is pressing, and as the noble Marquess will have the opportunity I have stated in a short time of carrying into effect some of the recommendations I have read to him, I feel that it is absolutely incumbent on me to take up this matter even at the expense of occupying a good deal of the time of the noble Marquess.
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  Moved to resolve, That, in the opinion of this House, measures should be taken to give soldiers, on being drafted into the Reserve, the best chance of obtaining employment by providing them, previous to their discharge from the colours, while not on active service, with the opportunity of enjoying as large an amount of technical instruction as is compatible with the due performance of military duties, and that such duties should, as a temporary expedient, be lightened by the employment of outside labour in the discharge of fatigue work.—(The Lord Monkswell.)
  *THE SECRETARY OF STATE FOR WAR (The Marquess of LANSDOWNE): My Lords, it will not be necessary for me to reply at any great length to the speech which has been delivered by the noble Lord opposite, because I may say, without affectation, that I should think as regards five-sixths of that speech I am entirely in agreement with him. I have always chought it would be of the utmost value to the Army if, while soldiers are serving with the colours, we could give them some instruction in the rudiments of a track;, and thereby render them better fitted for civil employment after they have left the colours. I must say that I was surprised when the noble Lord charged me with having stamped upon him when he made a proposal of this kind on some former occasion. I certainly am unconscious of having done so. My own views have been very much in accord with those of the noble Lord, and I may add that the views of almost every soldier of experience with whom I have discussed this question, have been such as those which he has quoted. But, my Lords, the question is a practical one. We have shown our desire to do what the noble Lord recommends in a very practical way, because last year we provided £75 in the case of each of a number of battalions which seemed to us suitable subjects for an experiment of the kind, and we gave directions that an attempt should be made to give technical instruction as recommended by the noble Lord. I am sorry to say that the result of the experiment was not encouraging. We have had reports on

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  the subject, and none of them have been of a very favourable character. I will take one case as an illustration. At Woolwich there were exceptional facilities for carrying on work of this kind. But what happened at Woolwich? At the beginning of the season we had forty-one men on the roll there for a course of instruction of this kind, but I am sorry to tell the House that at the end of the season forty out of the forty-one men had withdrawn, and there was left one solitary student as a monument of OUT' disappointed hopes. We shall, however, continue the experiment, and shall spare no pains to make it successful. But the fact remains that it is exceedingly difficult to induce private soldiers, whose time is pretty fully taken up, to attend classes of this kind. I cannot help thinking that the feelings of the private soldier are very much what I remember the feelings of schoolboys were at the time when I was a schoolboy. We were all of ns delighted to attend classes in extra subjects so long as those classes were substituted for a part of the regular curriculum of the school, but the moment they involved any inroad on our leisure the whole of our desire for that particular form of instruction vanished most completely. I think that is the case with the soldier, and when I made the observation the other evening that I did not think the introduction of instruction of this kind was likely to be popular with the Army, or to encourage recruiting, that was what I meant. I have no doubt it is an excellent thing for soldiers if you can induce them to take it up. The difficulty is to find a means of inducing them to submit themselves to instruction. I heard with regret a suggestion in which the noble Lord seemed to imply that ex-soldiers, and particularly Reservists, were to a great extent to be found among the homeless and destitute part of the population. I believe that nothing is further from the truth. There may, of course, always be found a broken-down ex-soldier in the casual ward of a workhouse, but it is more than likely that the man found in such a condition has been discharged from the Army with ignominy, and it is within our knowledge that when, a few weeks ago, we called upon the Army Reserve, by far the greater number of the men were in regular and well-remunerated employment.
  LORD MONKSWELL: I am very glad to find that the noble Marquess has done something to endeavour to train the soldier, but he does not seem, as he says, to have been particularly successful. Of course, I shall not press my motion, but I should like to know whether the classes at Woolwich were started in the summer, because, if they were, it is only natural that soldiers would not attend.
  *THE MARQUEES OF LANSDOWNE: I am afraid I cannot answer that question.
  LORD MONKSWELL: It would make all the difference. They would not attend in the summer, when they have excessively hard work, but I suggest that there are dark months in the winter when they would be glad to attend, and some inducement might be given in the way of increased pay, prizes, etc. As the noble Marquess has referred to his school days, I should like to remind him that it was a very popular form of recreation in the school to which he belonged to make use of the turning lathe. I find it difficult to think that soldiers will never take kindly to manual instruction, because I remember that at the Chelsea Military Exhibition, where there were a lot of exhibits made by the soldiers at Aldershot in workshops which were partly fitted up at the expense of the officers, those exhibits were sold for more than enough to pay all the expenses. I do not for a moment contend that the great majority of Reservists are homeless people. I only say that there were a considerable number of Reservists with good characters who were proved to be homeless people in the year 1890. I hope matters have improved since then. In 1890, while out of seventy-seven homeless Reservists thirty-six were found to have had very good characters, at the same period out of 1,200 persons not one was found to be a sailor, and I commend that to the serious consideration of the noble Marquess. I withdraw my motion.
  Motion (by leave of the House) withdrawn.

  LAND CHARGES BILL [H.L.]
  Amendments reported (according to order); and Bill to be read 3a Tomorrow.

  SOUTH AFRICAN WAR—ROYAL GARRISON ARTILLERY—ARMAMENT PAY.
  VISCOUNT TEMPLETOWN: My Lords, I rise to ask the noble Marquess the Secretary of State for War whether it is the case that officers of the Royal Garrison Artillery ordered on service to South Africa are deprived of armament pay, which is issued to all officers of this branch of the service both in England and India; whether officer's of any other branch of Her Majesty's forces are deprived of any portion of their pay whilst in South Africa; and whether he will consider the advisability of continuing the issue of armament pay to the officers concerned during their absence on active service in South Africa.
  *THE MARQUESS OF LANSDOWNE: My Lords, the armament pay to which the noble Lord refers was given to the Garrison Artillery as, I understand, a kind of solatium for the comparative irksomeness of employment in fortresses, and with the object of making the dismounted branch of the Artillery less unattractive than it might otherwise be. According to the letter of the Regulations, armament pay can only be drawn by an officer of the Garrison Artillery when he is employed on the duties of his corps, and there was consequently some doubt whether-, when a Garrison Artillery officer was for a time employed with field artillery, he could be allowed to draw the armament pay. But I have made inquiries into the matter, and I find that when the particular officers to whom the noble Lord refers were selected for employment with the Field Artillery, no special arrangement was made with them in regard to the abandonment by them of their armament pay. That being so, I think there would perhaps be some hardship in depriving them of what they no doubt look upon as a permanent and well-assured part of their emoluments, and I have therefore arranged that their armament pay shall be given to them.
  VISCOUNT TEMPLETOWN: I beg to thank the noble Marquess for his very satisfactory reply.

  TREATMENT OF WOUNDED SOLDIERS EROM THE FRONT.
  EARL CARRINGTON: Before the House adjourns I venture to interpose for
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  one moment to call the attention of the Secretary of State for War to the treatment of certain convalescent soldiers returned home from the front. The troopship "Dunera" arrived home on 25th January with two hundred men on board from Wynberg Hospital. They had lost all their clothing, kit, and necessaries, and practically landed with nothing except the clothes they stood up in, and those clothes were the colonial suits that had been supplied to them at the Cape. When the men left Wynberg Hospital they were told that when they went to Netley they would receive their proper equipment to make good their losses. Orr their arrival they were provided with four shirts and four pairs of socks, each out of the Daily Mail "Absent-minded Beggar" Fund. On Saturday two of those men, Guardsmen, named Carey and Castle, were sent down from Netley to the convalescent hospital which has been started by Lady Carrington at Wycombe, appearing in the same clothes that they landed in on 25th January. All that was given them by the authorities at Netley was a railway pass—no money and no food. Having been travelling from 7 a.m. till 5 p.m., they arrived at the convalescent hospital in a state of exhaustion, one man particularly so, as he had been severely wounded in the head. I have communicated with the commanding officer at Windsor, and asked him to send the men the proper necessaries, as they arrived without a hairbrush, without a sponge, and without any of the ordinary articles of a soldier's kit. I call attention to these cases because I feel certain the noble Marquess will at once give orders which will prevent other convalescent soldiers being subjected to similar treatment. This, I believe, is not an individual case.
  *THE MARQUESS OF LANSDOWNE: I will gladly make inquiries into the case, but it must be obvious that, not having received notice of the question, I am not in a position to state what the facts are. I would venture to suggest that it would have been better if the noble Earl had given notice of the question.
  House adjourned at Twenty minutes past Five of the clock, till To-morrow, half-past Ten of the clock.