Lords Sitting of 6 August 1900

ROYAL ASSENT.

  COMMISSION.
  The following Bills received the Royal Assent:—

  1. Merchant Shipping (Liability of Shipowners and others).

  2. Cruelty to Wild Animals in Captivity.

  3. Customs Duties (Isle of Man).

  4. Ancient Monuments Protection.

  5. Oil in Tobacco.

  6. Members of Local Authorities Relief.

  7. Reserve Forces.

  8. Volunteers.

  9. Prohibition of Exportation of Arms.

  10. Intermediate Education (Ireland).

  11. Poor Relief (Ireland).

  12. Elementary School Teachers Superannuation (Isle of Man).

  13. Elementary School Teachers' Superannuation (Jersey).

  14. Expiring Laws Continuance.

  15. Public Works Loans.

  10. Local Government (Ireland) (No. 2).

  17. Local Government Provisional Orders (No. 7).

  18. Local Government Provisional Orders (No. 15).

  19. Education Board Provisional Order Confirmation (London).

  20. Tramways Orders Confirmation (No. 1).

  21. Tramways Orders Confirmation (No. 2).

  22. Tramways Orders Confirmation (No. 3).

  23. Tramways Orders Confirmation (No. 4).

  24. London (St. Marylebone) Provisional Order.

  25. Paisley Waterworks Provisional Order Confirmation.

  26. Edinburgh (Housing of the Working Classes) Improvement Scheme Provisional Order.

  27. Local Government (Ireland) Provisional Orders (No. 4).

  28. Post Office Sites.

  29. Electric Lighting Provisional Orders (No. 10).

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  30. Tramways Provisional Orders (No. 5).

  31. North British Railway.

  32. Costa Rica Railway Company, Limited.

  33. Blackpool, St. Annes, and Lytham Tramways.

  34. East London Water.

  35. Ilfracombe Improvement.

  36. London and North Western Railway (Wales).

  37. London and North Western Railway.

  38. London County Council (Money).

  39. Buenos Ayres and Rosario Railway.

  40. Ipswich Corporation Tramways.

  41. Rotherhithe and Ratcliff Tunnel.

  42. Salford Corporation.

  43. Withington Urban District Council.

  44. Sheffield Corporation.

  45. Clontarf Urban District Council.

  46. Aberdeen Police and Improvement.

  47. Baker Street and Waterloo Railway.

  48. Bradford Corporation.

  49. Charing Cross and Strand Electricity Supply.

  50. City of London (Various Powers).

  51. Croydon Tramways and Improvements.

  52. Cumberland County Council (Bridges).

  53. Durham (County of) Electric Power Supply.

  54. Exeter Corporation.

  55. Farnworth Urban District Council.

  56. Halifax Corporation.

  57. Lancashire Electric Power.

  58. Lancaster Corporation.

  59. Liverpool Corporation.

  60. London County Tramways (No. 2).

  61. Market Weighton Navigation.

  62. Newcastle-upon-Tyne Supply.

  63. Oldham Corporation.

  64. Rickmansworth and Uxbridge Valley Water.

  65. South Lancashire Tramways.

  66. Wandsworth and Putney Gas.

  67. West Bromwich Corporation.

  68. West Ham Corporation.

  69. Great Southern and Western and Waterford, Limerick, and Western Railway Companies Amalgamation.

  70. Great Southern and Western and Waterford and Central Ireland Railway Companies Amalgamation.

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  71. Caledonian Railway.

  72. Margate Corporation.

  73. Midland Great Western Railway of Ireland.

  74. London, Walthamstow, and Epping Forest Railway (Abandonment).

  75. Muirkirk, Mauchline, and Dalmellington Railways (Abandonment).

  76. Hemel Hempstead Corporation (Water).

  77. Morley Corporation.

  78. South Eastern and London, Chatham, and Dover Railways.

  79. Bexhill and Rotherfield Railway.

  80. Sunderland Corporation.

  81. Alexandra Park.

  82. Bray and Enniskerry Railway.

  83. Christchurch and Bournemouth Tramways.

  84. Coventry Corporation.

  85. Devonport Corporation.

  86. Dublin Corporation.

  87. Great Northern Railway (Ireland).

  88. Hastings Corporation.

  89. Huddersfield Corporation Tramways.

  90. London County Council (General Powers).

  91. London County Council (Improvements).

  92. London County Tramways (No. 1).

  93. London United Tramways.

  94. Metropolis Gas (Prepayment Meter).

  95. Metropolitan District Railway.

  96. Mid-Kent Water.

  97. Newry, Keady, and Tynan Light Railway.

  98. North Metropolitan Electric Power Supply.

  99. Plymouth, Stonehouse, and Devonport Tramways.

  100. Rochdale Corporation.

  101. Scarborough Corporation.

  102. Southport and Lytham Tramroad.

  103. Southport Corporation.

  104. South Wales Electrical Power Distribution.

  105. Taunton Corporation.

  106. Tottenham Urban District Council.

  107. Workington Railways and Docks.

  108. Bournemouth Corporation.

  109. Walsall Corporation.

  110. Liverpool Overhead Railway.

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  111. Saint David's Railway Abandonment.

  112. Fraser Settled Chattels.

  HIS MAJESTY THE KING OF ITALY.
  The Queen's Answer to the Address of Tuesday last, delivered by the Lord Steward (E. Pembroke and Montgomery), and read as follows:—
  "I thank you for your loyal and dutiful address. I unite with you in the expression of indignation and deep concern at the tidings of the assassination of my illustrious ally His Majesty the King of Italy, and I will not fail to convey to His Majesty's successor on the throne your sentiment and abhorrence at the perpetration of such a crime, and your sympathy with the Royal Family of Italy and with the Government and people of that country."

  HIS ROYAL HIGHNESS THE DUKE OF SAXE-COBURG AND GOTHA.
  The Queen's Answer to the Address of Thursday last, delivered by the Lord Steward (E. Pembroke and Montgomery), and read as follows:—
  "I return you my most sincere thanks for your loyal and dutiful address, expressing sympathy with me in the great loss which I have sustained by the death of my beloved son the Duke of Saxe-Coburg and Gotha. The assurance of your warm interest in all that concerns my family, and the declaration of your cordial feelings towards both myself and them, are a source to me of true gratification and comfort."

PRIVATE BILL BUSINESS.
  MANCHESTER CORPORATION TRAMWAYS BILL [H.L.]
  Commons Amendments considered, and agreed to.
  KINGSCOURT, KEADY, AND ARMAGH RAILWAY BILL.
  Returned from the Commons with the Amendments agreed to.
RETURNS, REPORTS, ETC.

  BOARD OF EDUCATION.
  I. Report, for 1899–1900—
  Vol. 1. The Report;
  Vol. 2. Appendix to the Report (Secondary Education);
  Vol. 3. Appendix to the Report (Elementary Education).
  II. Reports from University Colleges, 1900.
  III. Schools in receipt of Parliamentary grants (1899–1900).
  IV. Grants paid to School Boards under Section 97 of the Elementary Education Act, 1870 (1899–1900).
  V. School Board accounts and list of loans (1899–1900).

  Forty-sixth Report of the Postmaster General on the Post Office.
  ORDNANCE SURVEY.
  Report of the progress of the, to the 31st March, 1900.
  TRADE AND SHIPPING OF SOUTHEAST ASIA.
  Trade, shipping, railways, and economic condition generally of French Indo-China, Siam, Straits Settlements, and Malay Federated States, and the British and Dutch possessions in the East Indian Archipelago, a series of articles containing information collated from various sources including the Board of Trade Journal.
  IRISH LAND COMMISSION (JUDICIAL RENTS).
  Return for the month of December, 1899.
  BANKING, RAILWAY, AND SHIPPING STATISTICS (IRELAND).
  Report for June, 1900.

  LAND LAW (IRELAND) ACT, 1887 (EVICTION NOTICES).
  I. Return of the number of eviction notices filed during the quarter ended 30th September, 1900,
  II. Return of the number of eviction notices filed during the quarter ended 31st December, 1900.

  LOCAL GOVERNMENT BOARD (IRELAND).
  Annual Report, for the year ended 31st March, 1900.

  AGRICULTURAL STATISTICS (IRELAND).
  I. General Abstracts showing the acreage under crops, also the number and description of live stock in each county and province, for 1899–1900.
  II. Tables showing the extent in statute acres, and the produce of the crops, for the year 1900.
  III. (Migratory Labourers). Report and tables relating to migratory agricultural labourers, for the year 1900.

  BANKING AND RAILWAY STATISTICS (IRELAND).
  Report for December, 1900.
  Presented (by Command), and ordered to lie on the Table.

  SECONDARY EDUCATION (SCOTLAND).
  Report for the year 1900, by Sir Henry Craik, K.C.B., on the inspection of higher class schools and the examination for leaving certificates.
  PRIVATE LEGISLATION PROCEDURE (SCOTLAND) ACT, 1899.
  General Orders for the regulation of proceedings under and in pursuance of the Private Legislation Procedure (Scotland) Act, 1899, fixing a scale of fees to be paid by petitioners and opponents of Provisional Orders, and amending the General Orders already issued, made by the Chairman of Committees of the House of Lords and the Chairman of Ways and Means in the House of Commons acting jointly with the Secretary of Scotland.
  POLLING DISTRICTS (BOROUGH OF PRESTON).
  Order made by the Council of the borough of Preston, in the county of Lancaster, re-dividing the borough into convenient polling districts for the purposes of Parliamentary elections.

  PENAL SERVITUDE ACTS, 1853 to 1891 (CONDITIONAL LICENCE).
  Licence granted by Her Majesty to Emily de Charante Lester, a convict under detention in Aylesbury Prison, permitting the said Emily de Charante

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  Lester to be at large, on condition that she enter St. Mary's Home, Wantage, Berkshire.
  Laid before the House (pursuant to Act), and ordered to lie on the Table.

  EXECUTORS (SCOTLAND) BILL.
    LUNACY BOARD (SCOTLAND) (SALARIES, ETC.) BILL.
    Returned from the Commons with the Amendment agreed to.
  ELEMENTARY EDUCATION BILL.
    NAVAL RESERVE BILL.
    Returned from the Commons with the Amendments agreed to.
  MILITARY LANDS BILL [H.L.]
  Returned from the Commons agreed to, with Amendments. The said Amendments considered (on motion), and agreed to.

  MONEY-LENDING BILL [H.L.]
  Commons Amendments considered, according to Order.
  LORD JAMES OF HEREFORD: My Lords, in moving that the Commons Amendments be agreed to, I may point out that, though numerous, they do not materially affect the Bill. My hon. friends the Attorney General and Mr. Russell, who had charge of the Bill in the House of Commons, have had a very difficult task in carrying it through that House, but they have done their utmost to maintain the Bill in a condition which will not cause it to be less efficient than when it left your Lordships' House. During the passage of the Bill through this House the Government, and, I think, every Member, were anxious that none of the provisions should interfere with legitimate trading in money, and safeguards were put into the Bill with this object. Some of the Amendments which have been made in the House of Commons are not such as I myself should have suggested, because they remove in part the safeguards which were inserted by your Lordships. But the removal of these safeguards was moved in the House of Commons by a gentleman representing the banking interest, and, having regard to the origin of the Amendments,
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  I do not think they ought to be rejected. The Bill will give considerable benefit to those who deserve protection, and cannot materially injure those who carry on a legitimate business.
  Commons Amendments agreed to.

  COUNTY COURTS (INVESTMENT OF DEPOSITS) BILL [H.L.]
  Commons Amendments considered (according to Order), and agreed to.

  LOCAL GOVERNMENT (IRELAND) BILL.
  House in Committee (according to Order).
  Clause 1 agreed to.
  Clause 2:—
  VISCOUNT TEMPLETOWN: My Lords, the Amendment standing in my name to Clause 2 is intended to remove doubts which have arisen as to whether the summary jurisdiction proceedings which were available for the recovery of poor rate before the passing of the Irish. Local Government Act of 1898 can still be legally adopted. In consequence of these doubts, magistrates in Ireland are beginning to refuse to make orders at petty sessions enabling a poor-rate collector to seize a defendant's goods. They prefer to wait for some clear statement of the law, by Parliament or by a. court competent to decide the question, rather that run the risk of making themselves liable to an action for damages by the defendant. The doubt as to a magistrate's present powers are due to the fact that the Irish Poor Relief Act of 1838 (Section 73) directs that the poor rate—
  "shall and may be collected and levied, sued for and recovered, by such and the same ways and means as the grand jury cess, or the money applotted on the several persons liable to pay the same may be collected and levied."
  At that time (1838) the ways and means for recovering grand jury cess were contained in Section 152 of the Grand Jury Act of 1836. Subsequently these powers were extended in 1850, by 13 and 14 Vict., cap. 82. Additional powers for the collection of poor rate only were also conferred by subsequent Acts, which are mentioned in a footnote an pages 34 and 35 of Mooney's Compendium of the Irish

  749
  Poor Law. It appears, however, that the Irish Local Government Act of 1898 has repealed Section 152 of the Grand Jury Act of 1836 and the whole of the Grand Jury Act of 1850, but has left unrepealed Section 73 of the Poor Relief Act of 1838 and the Acts relating to the recovery of poor rate mentioned in Mooney's Compendium. It is contended by some that the provisions of the Grand Jury Acts are only repealed in respect of the recovery of grand jury cess, and that the provisions of Section 38 of the Interpretation Act, 1889, would operate to keep them alive for the recovery of poor rate. On the other hand, it is contended that Parliament must be held to have had a special object in view in absolutely repealing some of the powers formerly in force for the recovery of poor rate, and leaving others absolutely unrepealed. As the matter stands, magistrates cannot reasonably be expected to decide such a doubtful question at their personal risk, and the object of this Amendment is to provide them with a definite statement as to their legal powers in such cases.
  Amendment moved—
  "In page 1, after line 14, to add, a new subsection as follows; '(2.) For the purpose of raising the amounts required to be raised by Section 51 of the principal Act, every collector of poor rate shall be deemed to have had and shall have the same powers to collect, levy, sue for, and recover all money which be has been or shall be authorised to levy under his warrant as he would have had if said principal Act had not passed.'"—(Viscount Templetowm.)
  THE LORD CHANCELLOR OF IRELAND (LORD ASHBOURNE): My Lords, I did not like to interrupt the noble Lord in the course of his speech, but the Amendment is out of order. This is not a Bill brought in to amend generally the Local Government (Ireland) Act of 1898, but to amend certain specific sections, and the topic referred to by the noble Viscount is not one connected with any of the sections with which the Bill is concerned. I may add that my right hon. friends the Chief Secretary and the Attorney General have considered the point, and do not think the sub-section at all necessary.
  VISCOUNT TEMPLETOWN: Will the noble and learned Lord say whether the magistrates in Ireland are safe at this moment in making such orders?
  LORD ASHBOURNE: I cannot give a legal opinion as to a matter which it is for the Courts to decide.
  Amendment, by leave of the House, withdrawn.
  Clause 2 agreed to.
  Clause 3: —
  THE EARL OF PEMBROKE AND MONTGOMERYcalled attention to the fact that the first section of this clause provided that Section 54 of the principal Act—
  "shall be deemed to have had effect as from the gale day last before the appointed day under that Act in the case of any tenancy one of the gale days of which is the twenty-fifth day of March."
  The gale day might not always take place on the 25th day of March, and he therefore moved an Amendment to omit the words "the twenty-fifth day of" and to insert "in."
  Amendment moved—
  "In page 1, line 18, to leave out 'the twenty-fifth day of' and to insert 'in.'"—(The Earl of Pembroke and Montgomery).
  LORD ASHBOURNE: Everyone knows that the general gale day is the 25th day of March, but there are some cases in which the date differs, and this Amendment will deal with those cases. I am quite willing to accept it.
  Amendment agreed to.
  VISCOUNT TEMPLETOWN: My Lords, I beg to move the insertion of a new subsection in Clause 3. The object of this Amendment is to enable a middleman to obtain from his superior landlord a reduction or allowance in respect of rates if the middleman's tenants have obtained such a reduction or allowance from him under the provisions of Section 54 of the principal Act. The middleman is entitled to this privilege if or so far as his holding is not agricultural land. For instance, if his holding is in a rural district, he is entitled in respect of the buildings, but not in respect of the land. No satisfactory reason can apparently be shown for this distinction.
  Amendment moved—
  "In page 1, after line 18, to insert a new I sub-section as follows:—' (2) In Sub-section

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  4 of said Section 54 the words "which is not agricultural land" shall be and are hereby repealed.'"—(Viscount Templetown.)
  LORD ASHBOURNE: My noble friend has stated very clearly the grounds upon which he moves this Amendment, but I doubt if he quite realises what its result would be if your Lordships adopted it. I suppose there was no question more discussed, when the principal Bill was under consideration, than that of the inclusion and exclusion of agricultural land; and in my opinion there are wise and obvious reasons for making the distinction to which he has referred. The Amendment would have the effect of transferring the benefit of the agricultural grant from the landlord to the middleman, which I do not think is generally desired. I trust that my noble friend will not press his Amendment.
  VISCOUNT TEMPLETOWN: If the noble and learned Lord's argument is that landlords are not to move anything which is to the advantage of the tenants, of course I withdraw the Amendment.
  LORD ASHBOURNE: That is not what I said, and I do not think any such impression can be drawn from my remarks.
  Amendment, by leave of the House, withdrawn.
  THE EARL OF PEMBROKE AND MONTGOMERY: The next Amendment stands in my name. It is drawn with the object of removing ambiguity in the clauses of the principal Act, and it has the sanction of those in charge of the Bill.
  Amendment moved—
  "In page 2, line 3, at end, to insert 'Provided that where a person receiving and paying rent in respect of the same holding would not, if the principal Act or this Act had not passed, have been entitled to deduct more than half the poor rate from the rent paid by him, the reduction or deduction which may be made under the said Sub-section (4), either as extended or not, shall be calculated on the assumption that the occupier was entitled to deduct half the standard amount for poor rate in the standard financial year.'"—(The Earl of Pembroke and Montgomery.)
  LORD ASHBOURNE: I have consulted my right hon. friend the Chief Secretary, and he thinks this Amendment would be
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  an improvement to the Bill. Personally, I am not aware that there is any serious ambiguity in the principal Act, but I think the Amendment will meet a point which it is desirable should be made plain.
  Amendment agreed to.
  Clause 3, as amended, agreed to.
  Clause 4:—
  LORD TEMPLETOWN: My Lords, the provisions of Clause 4 are understood to be intended to facilitate the raising of rates, or portions of rates, which represent small and practically uncollectable fractions of a penny, in respect of the "excluded charges" mentioned in Sections 56 and 57 of the Irish Local Government Act of 1898. These excluded charges consist of expenses for extra constabulary, compensation for criminal injuries, charges for railways, tramways, harbours, piers, or quays under various Acts, for works under the Relief of Distress Acts, and navigation and public health charges. In these cases the clause proposes that where it would be necessary, for the purpose of raising the exact amount of any charge, to make a rate in the pound less than a farthing, or not being a multiple of a farthing, the rate in the pound actually made for that purpose shall be a farthing, or the next highest multiple of a farthing, as the case may be. So far, the provisions of the clause are not open to objection, and the general object in view is entirely to lie commended. The clause, however, proceeds to provide that the surplus, or sum in excess of the amount actually required, which would in this way be raised in every case, is to be carried to the credit of the district fund of the county district comprising the area on which the rate is made. In other words, it is to be applied in aid or reduction of the general district poor rate. There would be no objection to this if all these charges, like the general district poor rate, were payable by the occupier, because the surplus or excess sum paid by him in one form would be given back to him in another form. The landlord, however, has hitherto in most cases been required to allow the occupier a proportion, usually one-half, of any rate paid by the latter in respect of railway, tramway, harbour,

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  navigation, and public health charges; and under Section 54 (9) of the principal Act the landlord must continue to make these allowances so long as the existing tenancy in the holding continues, or until a new statutory term therein begins. It seems, therefore, only fair that every surplus raised in respect of such rates should be so applied as to secure that both owner and occupier should derive equal benefit from it. The Amendment which I am about to move proposes that every such surplus should be carried to a separate account, and applied towards future levies of the same or a similar charge. The Amendment is also so worded as to permit the Local Government Board to sanction the raising of an extra rate representing more than the next highest farthing in the pound, thus providing a fund sufficient to pay the whole of the present levy, and also one or more future levies of the charge. This would be a convenient and economical course where the amount required for a single levy represents a rate of a small fraction in the pound. Further, the Amendment is so drawn as to permit of the clause being applied to charges leviable off the county at large, as well as those chargeable to county districts and other smaller areas. Some county-at-large excluded charges—for instance, for extra police or for a criminal injury—represent such fractional rates in the pound that it is impossible to raise a single levy for them. It may lie said that as any surplus raised under the clause as it stands in the Bill would represent a rate of less than a farthing in the pound, the owner would suffer only small damage by the surplus being credited to the general district poor rate. But this is not the only question at issue, for the application of the surplus in the way proposed in the clause would not only result in relieving the tenant of any payment whatever in respect of many of the smaller excluded charges, but would actually make them a source of profit to him at the expense of the landlord. For example, many of the public health charges referred to in Section 54 (9) of the principal Act are for small sums, and, even when several of them are consolidated under an Order made by the Local Government Board for Ireland on the 15th of May, 1899, each levy in respect of them would not represent a rate of half a farthing in the pound on the county district. If, however,
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  you raise a rate of a farthing in the pound to pay half that amount, the landlord must allow half the amount raised—not half the amount of the rate, but half the amount raised—to the tenant; and if the surplus is then, as proposed by Clause 4, carried to the credit of the general district poor rate, it is evident that the practical effect is to make the landlord pay the whole amount required for these charges, and to exempt the tenant from any chargeability in respect of them. Similarly, if these charges represented a rate of only one quarter of a farthing in the pound, and if you raise a rate of a farthing for them in each levy, and apply the excess amount in the way proposed in the clause, you will make the landlord allow to the tenant on each levy a sum equal to double the total rate required to pay the whole charge, and the tenant will not only escape any payment in respect of it, but his general district poor rate will be reduced at the landlord's expense by a poundage rate equivalent to a full year's levy of the excluded charge in question. This seems to show that the proposal in the clause can hardly be said to work fairly to the landlord's interest.
  Amendment moved—
  "In page 2, line 28, after 'or' to leave out all the words to the end of line 31, and to insert ' any higher rate approved of by the Local Government Board; and any sum in excess of such exact amount shall he carried to credit of a separate account, and shall he applied towards paying any future levy or levies that may be required to be raised off the same area in respect of the same or any similar charge. Provided always that when any such charge is no longer required to be raised, any balance then remaining to credit of such separate account shall be transferred—(a) To credit of the County Fund if it was originally raised off the county at large; or (b) If it was originally raised off any smaller area, then to credit of the District Fund of any county district or districts in which such smaller area is comprised.'"—(Viscount Templetown.)
  THE EARL OF ARRAN: I confess that this Bill has taken me somewhat unawares. Having just returned from Scotland, I have had no time to look into it, and therefore I can only speak with regard to it at third hand. I have had a paper handed to me explaining the working of the clause, and it certainly does seem that it would be much better if the noble and learned Lord would withdraw the Bill for the present session. It is scarcely right to bring forward a Bill of such importance, and containing clauses

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  seriously affecting landlords and tenants, at such a late period of the session, when there is so little opportunity for discussion. I am told that the working of the clause will be as follows:—If the sum to be raised represented one twentieth of a penny—a common case—then by raising a farthing, that is, five twentieths, you raise five times the necessary amount each time, and, as the landlord must allow the tenant one-half the amount raised in the cases—which are very numerous—mentioned in Section 54 (9), he will have on every levy to pay five times the amount intended by the principal Act to be paid by him, or, in other words, two and a half times the total annual charge required to be raised. I do not think this is a provision that would commend itself to your Lordships, and I would therefore appeal to my noble and learned friend to withdraw the Bill.
  LORD ASHBOURNE: The suggestion of my noble friend is one which obviously the Government cannot accept. This Bill has been brought in for the purpose of making the machinery of the Local Government Act of 1898 work more smoothly and in a more businesslike way, and it is one which must be regarded from a practical point of view. The speeches of the noble Viscount behind me and of the noble Lord who has just sat down convey an idea of magnitude quite out of proportion to the intention of the clause. The particular matter dealt with in Clause 4 is this: Whenever the rate or tax to be raised is only a fraction of a farthing, a rate of a farthing is to be levied, and the balance carried forward in a particular way. The farthing is fixed upon as being the smallest coin we use and for convenience of collection. The Amendment would be infinitely more dangerous, because it contains no limit whatever. It would enable the limit of a farthing to be exceeded, and would also necessitate the keeping of a separate account in respect of every area in the country, however small. The matter has been very carefully considered, and the clause is framed in a way that is deemed to be most workable. I trust, therefore, that the noble Viscount will withdraw the Amendment.
  VISCOUNT TEMPLETOWN: I am afraid I must press my Amendment. The
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  noble and learned Lord said the object of the clause was to make the machinery of the Act work more smoothly, but it is to do so at the expense of the landlords. The maguitude of this clause has been questioned by the noble and learned Lord. I admit that a fraction of a farthing is not a very large sum, but when you come to multiply it on thousands of tenancies it becomes a serious matter. If the bookkeeping qualifications of the officers of the county councils are not sufficient to enable them to keep a separate account for this money, then the sooner more efficient officers are appointed the better.
  LORD ASHBOURNE: I have given my noble friend fairly, and I hope courteously, the reasons that were in the Government's mind when the clause was drafted, and I hope the Amendment will not be persisted in. It is obvious that if you deal with fractions of a farthing it will be impossible to work the rate. Since the Amendment was placed upon the Paper it has been carefully considered with an earnest desire to arrive at the best arrangement possible, and the Government are advised that the clause as it stands will work infinitely better than the Amendment, which, personally, I do not think would work at all. If the noble Lord persists in his Amendment the only result will be that either the prorogation will have to be postponed or else the Bill will be wrecked for this session.
  VISCOUNT TEMPLETOWN: I must take a division on the Amendment.
  LORD ASHBOURNE: I do not think; my noble friend contemplates all the possibilities of a division. The Government cannot give way on a Bill of this kind, and a division would work out no practical result. It would simply lead to I considerable delay and misunderstanding. Therefore, I hope my noble friend will reconsider the matter, and be satisfied with the discussion which has taken place.
  VISCOUNT TEMPLETOWN: I must insist on my Amendment.
  THE LORD CHANCELLOR (The Earl of HALSBURY): I would suggest that what we are doing is not altogether

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  dignified. We all of us know that if the Amendment is pressed and a division challenged, the whole thing, by the Standing Orders of the House, will have to be adjourned till to-morrow. If there was a possibility of any practical result following, that might be justified; but when your Lordships assemble to-morrow Ave shall be in exactly the same position. Precisely the same thing will occur, and we might go on in that way the whole week until the session comes to an end summarily. I do suggest that it is not quite to the dignity of the House to do that.
  VISCOUNT TEMPLETOWN: Is there any reason why the clause should not be withdrawn altogether?
  LORD ASHBOURNE: Well. I have no option. In the exigencies of my position, and under pressure, I will withdraw the clause, but I cannot say what will be done elsewhere.
  VISCOUNT TEMPLETOWN: With the best intentions in the world, I am sorry the position is one that has led to an impasse.
  LORD ASHBOURNE: I have endeavoured to meet the noble Viscount in the fairest possible way. He must recognise that time is of priceless value at this period of the session. The Bill was put down for Friday, but my noble friend was not in attendance, and it was in deference to an intimation made to me to the effect that he desired to make a statement that I postponed it till to-day, in order to give him an opportunity of doing so. I did everything that was humanly possible at this period of the session to enable the Bill to be discussed and examined.
  Amendment, by leave of the House, withdrawn.
  Clause 4 struck out of the Bill.
  Remaining clauses agreed to.
  Standing Committee negatived. Then (Standing Order No. XXXIX. having been suspended) Amendments reported, and Bill read 3a, with the Amendments, and passed, and returned to the Commons.

TRAMWAYS (IRELAND) ACTS AMENDMENT BILL.
[SECOND READING.]
Order of the Day for the Second Reading read.
THE EARL OF DENBIGH: My Lords, this Bill was originally introduced by a private Member in the other House, but on account of the importance of the matters at issue, it has received the sanction of the Government, and comes up to your Lordships' House with the Government's support. The object of the Bill is to amend the Tramways (Ireland) Acts, 1860 to 1896, and to assimilate legislation relating to light railways and tramways in Ireland to that already existing in England.
Moved, "That the Bill be now read a second time."—(The Earl of Denbigh.)
The CHAIRMAN of COMMITTEES (The Earl of MORLEY): I would point out that this Bill has only just been printed, and it is quite impossible, therefore, for the House to know what is in it. I only succeeded in getting a copy a quarter of an hour before the House met do not wish to place any impediment in the way of the Bill passing, if the noble Earl assures us that there are no matters of importance involved.
The Earl of ARRAN: It is most unreasonable on the part of the Government to bring forward at the end of the session a Bill of this important character. I think it would be extremely advisable to postpone it until next session.
LORD ASHBOURNE: My noble friend does not indicate any particular ground of objection. The fact that the Bill comes up from the House of Commons at the end of the session cannot, I think, be urged as a reason for postponing it till another session. If there is any point my noble friend wishes to have explained I shall be glad to hear it.
THE EARL OF ARRAN: My principal objection is to Clause 3 of the Bill. Section 43 of the Tramways (Ireland) Act, 1860, prohibits a house wholly built of stone or brick with lime, or any of the outbuildings or offices thereof, or any part of any yard, haggard, orchard, or plantation attached or belonging thereto,

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from being taken for the purpose of the undertaking without the consent in writing of the owner respectively. This clause will repeal that portion of Section 43 if an Order in Council is obtained to prevent it so applying. I think this is a very important point.
LORD ASHBOURNE: Clause 3 of this Bill has to be read in connection with the provision in the existing legislation which it seeks to amend. Section 43 of the Tramways (Ireland) Act, 1860, provides that—
"Nothing in this Act, or in any Order under it, shall be deemed to authorise to be taken for the purposes of the undertaking any mansion honse, or house wholly built of stone or brick, with lime, or any of the outbuildings or offices thereof, or any part of any yard, haggard, garden, orchard, or plantation attached or belonging thereto, or any part of any deer park or other park or demesne, or planted or ornamental walk, drive, approach, or avenue, or of any ground ornamentally planted, or of any lawn or bleach green, without the consent in writing of the owner thereof respectively, although the same may lie within such distance as in the last preceding section is mentioned."
Clause 3 of the Bill now before your Lordships is as follows—
"Any Order in Council under the Tramways (Ireland) Acts, 1860 to 1S96, may provide that so much of Section 43 of the Tramways (Ireland) Act, 1860, as prohibits a house wholly built of stone or brick with lime, or any of the outbuildings or offices thereof, or any part of any yard, haggard, orchard, or plantation attached to or belonging thereto, from being taken for the purpose of the undertaking without the consent in writing of the owner respectively, shall not apply to the tramway authorised by the Order."
This clause does not authorise to be taken for the purposes of the undertaking any mansion house, or any part of any deer park or other park or demesne, or planted or ornamental walk, drive, approach, or avenue, or of any ground ornamentally planted, or of any lawn or bleach green without the consent in writing of the owner respectively. These are all left untouched, and cannot be meddled with without the sanction of the owner. Your Lordships will at once appreciate the wide distinction. This Bill deals with matters which are obviously of much smaller importance, and the Privy Council, before whom the spplication will come, will closely examine the evidence with an earnest desire to do only that which is just and fair.
THE EARL OF ARRAN: But Clause 3 gives power to the promoters of a tramway under the Bill to take a plantation attached to a house without the sanction of the owner.
LORD ASHBOURNE: I would point out that, as all schemes must be sanctioned, by the Privy Council, the rights of the owners are safeguarded.
THE EARL OF ARRAN: I do not think the explanation of my noble and learned: friend is sufficient——
THE EARL OF HALSBURY: I am afraid I must interpose. This is the Second Reading of the Bill, and the noble Lord has made three speeches.
On Question, agreed to; Bill read 2a accordingly.
Standing Order No. XXXIX. having been suspended, Bill committed to a Committee of the Whole House forthwith; House in Committee accordingly.
Clause 1 and 2 agreed to.
Clause 3:—
THE EARL OF ARRAN: With the permission of your Lordships I will move to amend the clause by striking out the words "or plantation attached to or belonging thereto."
Amendment moved—
"To omit from 'orchard' in line 11, to 'from' in line 12."—(The Earl of Arran.)
THE MARQUESS OF LANSDOWNE: I take it that, as the law now stands, any person owning a plantation, haggard, or orchard has the right, before that plantation or any part of it can be taken for the purpose of constructing a tramway, of being fully heard before the Privy Council. If he is dissatisfied he has an appeal from the decision of the Privy Council. The Amendment which my noble friend proposes would, as I understand it, have this result: that anyone owning a tiny corner of a plantation, with half a dozen stunted trees upon it, could absolutely put a stop to a useful tramway scheme by withholding his consent in writing to the scheme. That is an exaggerated precaution. I think those

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whose interest the noble Earl has at heart are amply protected by the law as it stands.
THE EARL OF ARRAN: The case instanced by the noble Marquess is an extreme one, and one not likely to occur. I have in my mind a long public road, fringed with plantations, which is too narrow to allow of a tramway being constructed. Under the clause the whole four or five miles of plantation running along the road might be destroyed for the purpose of the tramway.
LORD ASHBOURNE: Such a case would come under that part of Section 43 which is left untouched.
THE EARL OF ARRAN: I understand that would be so in the case of a plantation within a demesne, but a plantation outside a demesne would, I think, be affected by this clause.
Amendment agreed to.
Consequential Amendment agreed to.
Clause 3, as amended, agreed to.
Remaining clauses agreed to.
Standing Committee negatived; Amendments reported; Bill read 3a, with the Amendments, and passed, and returned to the Commons.

SUPPLEMENTAL WAR LOAN BILL.
Brought from the Commons, and read 1a; then (Standing Order No. XXXIX. having been suspended) Bill read 2a; Committee negatived; Bill road 3a, and passed.
House adjourned at half-past Five of the clock, till To-morrow, a quarter past Four of the clock.