Lords Sitting of 18 May 1899

PRIVATE BILL BUSINESS.
The LORD CHANCELLOR The LORD CHANCELLOR acquainted the House that the Clerk, of the Parliaments had laid upon the Table the Certificates from the Examiners that the further Standing Orders applicable to the following Bills have been complied with:—
KENSINGTON AND NOTTING HILL ELECTRIC LIGHTING.
  MIDLAND AND SOUTH-WESTERN JUNCTION RAILWAY.
    AYR BURGH.
    And also the Certificates that the Standing Orders applicable to the following Bills have been complied with:—
GAS ORDERS CONFIRMATION (No. 1) [Lords].
  GAS ORDERS CONFIRMATION (No. 2) [Lords].
    WATER ORDERS CONFIRMATION [Lords].
    The same were ordered to lie on the Table.
    YORKE ESTATE BILL [Lords].
    The LORD CHANCELLOR The LORD CHANCELLOR acquainted the House that, in pursuance of Standing Order No. 163A, relating to Private Bills, he had, on the requisition of the Chairman of Committees, appointed William Howard Winterbotham, Official Solicitor to the Supreme Court of Judicature, as guardian or protector of the infant James Hamilton Langdon Yorke, named in the Bill, to represent such infant before the Committee on the Bill.
    STRETFORD URBAN DISTRICT COUNCIL (TRAMWAYS) BILL [Lords].
    Reported with Amendments.
    MOSS SIDE URBAN DISTRICT COUNCIL (TRAMWAYS) BILL [Lords].
    Reported with Amendments.
    LOWESTOFT WATER AND GAS BILL [Lords].
    Reported with Amendments.
    WITHINGTON URBAN DISTRICT COUNCIL (TRAMWAYS) BILL [Lords].
    Reported with Amendments.
    GROSVENOR CHAPEL (LONDON) BILL [Lords].
    Reported with Amendments.
    WHITEHAVEN CORPORATION BILL [Lords].
    Reported from the Select Committee, with Amendments.
    EDINBURGH CORPORATION BILL.
    Read 2a, and committed; the Committee to be proposed by the Committee of Selection.
    GATESHEAD AND DISTRICT TRAMWAYS BILL.
    Read 2a, and committed.
    GOOLE URBAN DISTRICT COUNCIL BILL.
    Read 2a, and committed; the Committee to be proposed by the Committee of Selection.
    TENTERDEN RAILWAY BILL.
    Read 3a, and passed.
    LOUGHBOROUGH CORPORATION BILL [Lords].
    Read 3a, and passed, and sent to the Commons.
    COLONIAL AND FOREIGN BANKS GUARANTEE FUND BILL [Lords].
    Read 3a, and passed, and sent to the Commons.
    BRIGHTON MARINE PALACE AND PIER BILL [Lords].
    Read 3a, and passed, and sent to the Commons.
    FURNESS RAILWAY BILL [Lords].
    Read 3a, and passed, and sent to the Commons.
    STRETFORD GAS BILL [Lords].
    Read 3a, and passed, and sent to the Commons.
    PAISLEY AND BARRHEAD DISTRICT RAILWAY BILL [Lords].
    Read 3a, and passed, and sent to the Commons.
    BRIGG URBAN DISTRICT GAS BILL.
    Read 3a, with the Amendments, and passed, and returned to the Commons.
    AIRE AND CALDER NAVIGATION BILL
    Brought from the Commons; read 1a and referred to the Examiners.
    BAKER STREET AND WATERLOO RAILWAY BILL.
    Brought from the Commons; read 1a and referred to the Examiners.
    BELFAST WATER BILL.
    Brought from the Commons; read 1a and referred to the Examiners.
    BIRMINGHAM CORPORATION BILL.
    Brought from, the Commons; read 1a and referred to the Examiners.
    CORK CORPORATION (FINANCE) BILL.
    Brought from the Commons; read 1a; and referred to the Examiners.
    DUBLIN CORPORATION (MARKETS) BILL.
    Brought from the Commons; read 1a; and referred to the Examiners.
    EAST LONDON WATER BILL.
    Brought from the Commons; read 1a; and referred to the Examiners.
    GREAT WESTERN AND GREAT CENTRAL RAILWAY COMPANIES BILL.
    Brought from the Commons; read 1a; and referred to the Examiners.
    LINCOLN AND EAST COAST RAILWAY AND DOCK BILL.
    Brought from the Commons; read 1a; and referred to the Examiner's.
    LONDON AND NORTH WESTERN RAILWAY (ADDITIONAL POWERS) BILL.
    Brought from the Commons; read 1a; and referred to the Examiners.
    LONDON, BRIGHTON, AND SOUTH COAST RAILWAY (VARIOUS POWERS) BILL.
    Brought from the Commons; read 1a; and referred to the Examiners.
    LONDON, CHATHAM, AND DOVER RAILWAY BILL.
    Brought from the Commons; read 1a; and referred to the Examiners.
    MANCHESTER CORPORATION (GENERAL POWERS) BILL.
    Brought from the Commons; read 1a; and referred to the Examiners.
    MILTON CREEK CONSERVANCY BILL.
    Brought from the Commons; read 1a; and referred to the Examiners.
    NORTH PEMBROKESHIRE AND FISHGUARD RAILWAY BILL.
    Brought from the Commons; read 1a; and referred to the Examiners.
    UXBRIDGE AND RICKMANSWORTH RAILWAY BILL.
    Brought from the Commons; read 1a; and referred to the Examiners.
    SURREY COMMERCIAL DOCKS BILL [Lords].
    Returned from the Commons agreed to.
    HORSFORTH URBAN DISTRICT COUNCIL (WATER) BILL.
    Returned from the Commons with the Amendments agreed to.
    COALVILLE URBAN DISTRICT GAS BILL [Lords].
    Returned from the Commons agreed to, with Amendments.
    WEST HIGHLAND RAILWAY BILL [Lords].
    Returned from the Commons agreed to, with Amendments.
    WESTON - SUPER - MARE, CLEVEDON, AND PORTISHEAD TRAMWAYS COMPANY (LIGHT RAILWAY EXTENSIONS) BILL [Lords].
    Reported from the Select Committee, with Amendments.
    ELECTRIC LIGHTING PROVISIONAL ORDERS (No. 1) BILL.
    Committed to a Committee of the Whole House.
    JONES'S DIVORCE BILL [Lords].
    House in Committee (according to order): An Amendment made: Standing Committee negatived: The Report of Amendment to be received on Thursday the 1st of June next.
    GAS ORDERS CONFIRMATION (No. 1) BILL [Lords].
    Read 2a (according to order).
    GAS ORDERS CONFIRMATION (No. 2) BILL [Lords].
    Read 2a (according to order).
    WATER ORDERS CONFIRMATION BILL [Lords].
    Read 2a (according to order).
    ELECTRIC LIGHTING PROVISIONAL ORDERS (No. 3) BILL.
    Brought from the Commons; Read 1a; to be printed; and referred to the Examiners. [No. 96.]
PORTSMOUTH CORPORATION BILL [Lords].
  MARYPORT HARBOUR BILL [Lords].

    WATERMEN'S AND LIGHTERMEN'S ACTS AMENDMENT BILL [Lords].
    WORKINGTON CORPORATION WATER BILL [Lords].
    GREAT EASTERN RAILWAY (GENERAL POWERS) BILL [Lords].
    SOUTHPORT AND LYTHAM TRAM-ROAD BILL [Lords].
    SOUTHPORT TRAMWAYS BILL [Lords].
    NORTH STAFFORDSHIRE RAILWAY BILL [Lords].
    LONDON AND SOUTH-WESTERN RAILWAY BILL [Lords].
    Report from the Committee of Selection, That the following Lords be proposed to the House to form the Select Committee for the consideration of the said Bills, viz.:—

    M. Hertford,

    V. Powerscourt,

    L. Farnham,

    L. Monck (V. Monck),

    L. Herries (chairman);

    agreed to; and the said Lords appointed accordingly: The Committee to meet on Tuesday, 6th of June next, at Eleven of the clock; and all petitions referred to the Committee, with leave to the petitioners praying to be heard by counsel against the Bills to be heard as desired, as also counsel for the Bills.

    METROPOLITAN WATER COMPANIES BILL.
    Amendment considered.
    EARL CARRINGTON: Lord Tweed-mouth has explained the Amendment which stands on the Paper in my name so thoroughly that I will content myself on this occasion by formally moving it:—
    Amendment moved, "At end of Clause 2 to add, `and provided that the total amount of such stock shall not exceed five hundred thousand pounds.'"—(Earl Carrington.)
    LORD JAMES OF HEREFORD: I promised Lord Tweedmouth that I would communicate with the President of the Local Government Board to find out whether he could see his way to agree to the insertion of these words, and I have done so. I am sorry that the right honourable Gentleman cannot agree to the Amendment. When it was introduced in the House of Commons he fought it tooth and nail, and he says he cannot now eat his words.
    EARL CARRINGTON: If the President of the Local Government Board is unable to eat his words, I have not another word to say, except to express my regret that the noble Lord is unable to accept the Amendment. The majority of the electors of London must bow to the inevitable. All that we have been able to do is to make a gallant but somewhat unsuccessful attempt to save the money of the ratepayers in days to come.
    THE EARL OF KIMBERLEY: I regret that the noble Marquess at the head of the Government is not here to-night. I had cherished the hope, after hearing the speech of the Prime Minister the other evening, that this Amendment would be accepted. The argument of the noble Marquess tended in the direction of showing that the Bill would not do much harm, and that in all probability there would be no further water famine. If this is the case, then I regret that the Amendment has not been accepted, for I am not so sanguine as to expect that there may not be a considerable expenditure entailed.
    LORD JAMES OF HEREFORD: The expenditure can only take place in cases of great emergency. There is a second protection—that until seven years have elapsed, if any purchase of the undertakings of these companies takes place, no credit can be given to the companies for any expenditure under this Bill.
    EARL CARRINGTON: The Bill leaves a loophole for a great expenditure which the ratepayers of London wish to avoid, and which they will have to pay for in the future.
    Amendment negatived.
    An Amendment made: Then Standing Order No. 39 considered (according to order), and dispensed with: Bill read 3a with the Amendments, and passed, and returned to the Commons.

OYSTERS BILL [Lords].

  SECOND READING.
  Order of the day for the Second Reading read.
  LORD HARRIS: My Lords, I have to ask your Lordships to give a Second Reading to this Bill, which I may, perhaps, describe as another step in the legislative process which endeavours to make more sanitary the surroundings of creatures which supply food for man, and I may point out that there are precedents for legislation of this character in the Contagious Diseases (Animals) Act of 1878. There are also several Acts of Parliament which apply to oysters, in particular the Fisheries Act of 1877, which empowered the Board of Trade to prohibit the dredging of oysters on certain banks. The county council or the Local Government Board were empowered to have the water examined in which oysters were laid in order to see whether there were any insanitary conditions affecting them. The causes which rendered it necessary in the opinion of the Government to bring forward this Bill were primarily the grave suspicions that have attached to the oyster of late years. As long ago as 1880 Sir Charles Cameron, the Medical Officer of Health for Dublin, read a paper on the possible relations of typhoid fever to the consumption of polluted oysters, and the risk of sewage contamination to oysters laid down in Dublin Bay. In 1889 cases of enteric in Dublin were regarded as possibly due to oysters. In 1893 an outbreak of cholera in this country raised a very strong suspicion that it was due to oysters, and official representations were made to the Local Government Board in 1894 respecting the condition of storing oysters
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  in readiness for market. In 1894 also an outburst of enteric fever at the Wesleyan University, Connecticut, was traced undoubtedly to oysters fattened in an estuary near the outfall of a specifically infected drain. In 1896 the Acadéemie de Médicine in Paris received a paper from Dr. Chantemesse dealing with the cause of the outbreak of typhoid in a town in France, and passed a resolution to the effect that the consumption of oysters kept in polluted layings might cause typhoid fever, and demanded that oysters derived from localities known to be contaminated should be deposited for a period of eight days before their sale at some point on the coast washed by pure sea water. In 1898 an outbreak in Essex induced the Local Government Board to cause an inquiry to be made by Dr. Buchanan, who was satisfied that the outbreak was due to oysters which had been taken up from certain layers at a noted town on the Essex coast. In consequence of these suspicions and some representations made by medical men, as well as from the pressure brought to bear by local authorities and dealers in oysters whose trade was seriously affected by these suspicions, the Local Government Board determined in 1895 that its medical department should undertake a comprehensive inquiry into the circumstances in which the oyster was cultivated, and stored around our coast. Dr. Bulstrode examined every one of the oyster beds on the coast of England and Wales. In the course of his investigations he found that in many cases oysters are laid in dangerous proximity to the mouths of drains, where it is possible for the sewage effluent to flow over the oyster bed. In order to prove my case, I will read to your Lordships the description he gives of the conditions under which he found oysters being removed for human consumption. I think it would be only fair that I should not give the names of these places, because this report was made in 1896, and it is possible that in the interval the condition of things may have been improved. The Local Government Board have no information on that point, but we hope it may be so. Writing of one place, Dr. Bulstrode said:
  "Several of the merchants possess floating boxes, in which oysters not required for immediate sale are from time to time deposited. These boxes are moored a short distance south of the pier pavilion, one of them at the time of

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  my visit being 36 yards from the nearest lavatory closet drain pipe, at the foot of which pipe I discovered solid fœcal matter."
  Of another place Dr. Bulstrode said:
  "The storage pits belong to divers owners. The position of each pit is such as to court contamination by sewage of the oysters contained therein. In each instance there is, within a few yards, a drain serving a considerable number of houses."
  After describing the discharge of the sewage on the foreshore of the creek, at another place, he says:
  "Under these circumstances it is difficult to understand how the oysters near can fail to be polluted thereby. There can be little doubt that the oyster layings near the outfalls are in especial danger of sewage pollution."
  Of another place Dr. Bulstrode said:
  "These layings for oysters form a close pool of water containing numerous fishing craft; in other words, it is often a pond 23 acres in extent, containing moveable habitations, each with its own drain."
  In describing the arrangements at other places, Dr. Bulstrode said:
  "A considerable part of the water passing down the bed of the stream when the tide is out must be composed of sewage, and this cannot fail to pass over some of the oyster layings."
  "These drains receive, in some instances, the overflows from cesspools, and they cannot fail to afford substantial risk of contamination to the oysters contained."
  "Having regard to the relation of the several outlets in question to the oyster ponds, oysters stored here must be liable, in a high degree, to the danger of sewage pollution. The oyster ponds are in a most improper and unsafe position."
  There are three kinds of oysters to be considered—oysters bred in England, oysters imported for the purpose of laying down for fattening, and oysters imported for immediate consumption. Oysters are imported in very large quantities even from America, and consumed without being laid down in English waters. They are imported from France, Portugal and Holland. As regards oysters born and bred in this country, and foreign, oysters, the chief risk is in the case of the layings used as fattening pits and storage ponds, and the same grounds are used for both breeding purposes and for fattening. An investigation was made by Dr. Klein, partly in the ordinary course of a systematic inquiry instituted by the Local Government Board, and especially in furtherance of this oyster inquiry, and he summed up the series of experiments thus:
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  "It follows therefore from these experiments that oysters from various localities and of divers origin, which are kept for a while in sea water previously infected with culture of the typhoid bacillus, and which remain living and fresh, may and do harbour in their interior the living typhoid bacillus at intervals of four, nine, sixteen, and even 18 days from commencement of experiment, and that the oysters on being opened show no abnormal condition, but appear fresh and quite unaltered. Further, it appears that the typhoid bacillus which was recovered from these oysters, as also from the tank water, retains unimpaired all the characters of the typical typhoid bacillus that was used for the experiment."
  Sir William Broadbent, in 1895, announced through one of the principal medical journals of England that
  "the evidence of communication of typhoid by means of oysters had come to be of such a character as to produce conviction in his mind."
  Professor Conn, in summarising a case of typhoid in Connecticut, says—
  "These facts taken together form a chain of evidence practically complete at every point and leaving no room for doubt. Whatever may be said in regard to oysters in general, the Wesleyan outbreak of typhoid was caused by a special lot of contaminated oysters."
  And also:
  "One thing is sure—the public health is placed in jeopardy when oyster dealers, for the sake of producing plumpness, place oysters in the mouths of fresh water creeks in close proximity to sewers."
  Dr: News Holms, Medical Officer of Health for Brighton, has, in his official capacity, reported that cases of enteric in Brighton have, in more than one case, been due to the consumption of oysters. He says:
  "The following is the chain of evidence which has enabled the Medical Officer of Health to establish the connection between cases of enteric fever and the consumption of oysters and other shell fish:—(a) Most of the oysters and mussels consumed in Brighton are derived from a particular source, concerning which it is only necessary to quote Dr. Bulstrode's remark—`Sufficient has come to light for the purpose of demonstrating that these particular oyster ponds are in a most improper and unsafe position.'
  "(b) Enteric fever is endemic in the population whose drains and cesspools discharge near the oyster ponds and mussel beds in question.
  "(c) Sewage-derived organisms were found in the mud of the oyster ponds, and in the interior of oysters obtained from them by Dr. Klein, F.R.S., and by Professor Boyce, of University College, Liverpool.
  "(d) In a large proportion of the cases the one person taking oysters or mussels from the above source within three weeks preceding the date of onset of illness is the one person subsequently taken ill with enteric fever.

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  "(e) When other persons in the same house had eaten shell-fish they had diarrhœa or other evidence of illness, although this did not develop into typical enteric fever."
  These are the inquiries and the export opinions which justify the Local Government Board in introducing this Measure, and they have boon urged by an extremely powerful deputation representative of twenty-eight of the largest towns in the kingdom, to introduce some legislation on the subject. The evidence in favour of legislation is overwhelming, and many of those engaged in the oyster trade will welcome it as tending to remove suspicion from their beds. The Bill empowers the county councils to test the water in which oysters are laid, and to prohibit the removal of oysters for ten days if they discover contamination. The owner has an appeal to the Local Government Board, and the Local Government Board has power to act if the County Council fail to do so. There is a very important clause with regard to the importation of oysters, which provides that
  "If it is made to appear to Her Majesty in Council that any oyster laying situate in any foreign country or British possession is so situate with reference to an outfall of sewage that there is serious risk of disease being communicated by the consumption of oysters taken from that oyster laying, it shall he lawful for Her Majesty in Council, by order, to prohibit the importation into the United Kingdom of oysters brought from that oyster laying, or from any specified part of that country or possession which includes that laying, except on such terms with respect to the temporary deposit of the oysters or otherwise as may appear to Her Majesty in Council expedient for the purpose of removing the risk of communicating disease."
  The Bill applies to Scotland and Ireland with certain modifications. There is, in my opinion, sufficient evidence to show that there is a demand for legislation of this kind, and I trust that the Bill will be accepted. I do not wish to hurry it through, but the President of the Local Government Board desires that it should be read a second time so that there may be an opportunity of considering it before the Committee stage.
  Bill read 2a (according to order), and committed to a Committee of the Whole House.

MONEY LENDING BILL [Lords].

  THIRD READING.
  Bill read 3a (according to order).
  LORD LUDLOW: My Lords, I Move to Insert After "Provided that nothing in the foregoing provisions of this Bill shall affect the rights of any bonâ fule assignee or holder for value," the words "without notice." I think my noble friend, the Chancellor of the Duchy, approves of this Amendment.
  Amendment moved, in Clause 2, Subsection 4, to add at end of clause "without notice."—(Lord Ludlow.)
  LORD JAMES OF HEREFORD: I accept the Amendment, which strengthens the Bill.
  Amendment agreed to.
  VISCOUNT KNUTSFORD: Since the clause defining "money-lenders" has been revised and very much improved, a case has been brought to my notice, and, I think, to the notice of the noble and learned Lord the Chancellor of the Duchy, of a society which has power given to it by a private Act of Parliament to lend money; and it is thought, and I believe, rightly thought, that a society which is incorporated for one purpose and subsequently has its powers enlarged by the Act of Parliament, and power given to it to lend money, ought not to come within the definition. I therefore move the Amendment which stands in my name.
  Amendment moved, in Clause 7, page 4, after line 3, insert—
  (c) "Any body corporate, incorporated or empowered (before the passing of this Act), by a Special Act of Parliament to lend money in accordance with such Special Act; or"—(Viscount Knutsford.)
  LORD JAMES OF HEREFORD: I believe the society referred to is the only one existing under the same conditions. It has power by Act of Parliament to lend money under certain conditions and ought to be protected. I accept the Amendment.
  Amendment agreed to.
  Bill passed, and sent to the Commons.

  LINCOLNSHIRE CORONERS BILL [Lords].
  Amendments reported (according to order), and Bill to be read 3a on Friday the 9th of June next.
  PARISH COUNCILLORS (TENURE OF OFFICE) BILL.
  Amendment reported (according to order), and Bill to be read 3a on Friday the 2nd of June next.
  PUBLIC LIBRARIES (SCOTLAND) ACTS AMENDMENT BILL.
  Read 3a (according to order), and passed.
  LICENSING (DISQUALIFICATION OF JUSTICES REMOVAL) BILL [Lords].
  Read 3a (according to order), and passed, and sent to the Commons.
  HOUSE OF LORDS OFFICES.
  First Report from the Select Committee considered (according to order), and agreed to.
  MARINE INSURANCE BILL [Lords].
  A Bill for codifying the law relating to Marine Insurance—was presented by the Lord Chancellor; read 1a; and to be printed. (No. 97.)

  COMPANIES BILL [Lords].
  Report from the Select Committee (with Proceedings of the Committee) made, and to be printed. No. 98; Bill reported with Amendments, and committed to a Committee of the whole House; and to be printed as amended. (No. 99.)
  House adjourned at ten minutes past five of the clock, to Thursday the 1st of June next, a quarter past four of the clock.