Lords Sitting of 16 May 1899

PRIVATE BILL BUSINESS.

  JONES'S DIVORCE BILL.
  Order of the Day for the Second Reading, read: Counsel called in: Witnesses examined: Moved that the Bill be now read 2a; the same was agreed to: Bill read 2a; accordingly; and committed to a Committee of the Whole House on Thursday next.
  THE LORD CHANCELLOR THE LORD CHANCELLOR: acquainted the house that the Clerk of the Parliaments had laid upon the Table the Certificates from the Examiners that the further Standing Orders applicable to the following Bills have been complied with:

GREAT CENTRAL RAILWAY. SOUTH-EASTERN AND LONDON, CHATHAM, AND DOVER RAILWAY COMPANIES.
  SOUTH-EASTERN RAILWAY.
  Also the Certificate that no further Standing Orders are applicable to the following Bill:
GAS LIGHT AND COKE COMPANY.
The same were ordered to lie on the Table.
SUNDERLAND CORPORATION BILL [Lords].
Reported from the Select Committee, with Amendments.
COBHAM GAS BILL [Lords].
Reported, with Amendments.
GROSVRNOR CHAPEL (LONDON) BILL [Lords].
Committee to meet on Thursday next.
OWEN'S COLLEGE, MANCHERSTER BILL [Lords].
To be read 2a on the first sitting day after the recess at Whitsuntide.
BROOKE'S PARK (LONDONDERRY) BILL [Lords].
Read 2a,
TAFF VALE RAILWAY BILL.
Read 2a, and committed.
LISBURN TOWN COMMISSIONERS BILL.
Read 2a, and committed.
SCUNTHORPE URBAN DISTRICT GAS BILL.
Read 2a, and committed: The Committee to proposed by the Committee of Selection.
PORT TALBOT RAILWAY AND DOCKS BILL [Lords].
Read 3a, and passed, and sent to the Commons.
SALFORD CORPORATION BILL [Lords].
Read 3a, and passed, and sent to the Commons.
WAKEFIELD CORPORATION BILL [Lords].
Read 3a, and passed, and sent to the Commons.
FISHGUARD AND ROSSLARE RAILWAYS AND HARBOURS BILL, SHIREBROOK AND DISTRICT GAS BILL.
Brought from the Commons; read 1a; and referred to the Examiners.
ST. ANDREW,S BURGH PROVISIONAL ORDER CONFIRMATION BILL [Lords].
Returned from the Commons, agreed to.
NORTHERN ASSURANCE COMPANY BILL [Lords].
Returned from the Commons agreed to, With Amendments; the said Amendments considered, and agreed to.
ELECTRIC LIGHTING PROVISIONAL ORDERS (No. 1) BILL.
  ELECTRIC LIGHTING PROVISIONAL ORDERS (No. 10) BILL [Lords].
    ELECTRIC LIGHTING PROVISIONAL ORDERS (No. 11) BILL [Lords].
    Read 2a (according to order).
    ELECTRIC LIGHTING PROVISIONAL ORDERS (No. 4) BILL [Lords].
    Brought from the Commons; read 1a; to be printed; and referred to the Examiners. (No. 93).
GAS ORDERS CONFIRMATION (No. 1) BILL [Lords].
  GAS ORDERS CONFIRMATION (No. 2) BILL [Lords].
    WATER ORDERS CONFIRMATION BILL [Lords].
    To be read 2a, on Thursday next.
    WATERMEN'S AND LIGHTERMEN'S ACTS AMENDMENT BILL [Lords].
    The order made on the 5th instant appointing certain Lords the Select Committee to consider the Bill, discharged.
  RETURNS, REPORTS, &c.
    ARMY(PRELIMINARY RETURN).
    Preliminary Return of the British Army for 1898; with abstracts, &c.
    EDUCATION (SCOTLAND).
    Report of the Committee of Council on Education in Scotland; with appendix, 1898ߝ99.
    POLICE (SCOTLAND).
    Forty-first Annual Report of Her Majesty's Inspector of Constabulary for Scotland, for the year ended 31st December, 1898.

    TRADE REPORTS.
    Annual Seriesߞ
    No. 2,259. France (Dunkirk).
    No. 2,260. Persia (Ispahan and District).
    No. 2,261. Italy (Sardinia).
    No. 2,262. Turkey (Aleppo).

    IRISH LAND COMMISSION.
    Rule dated 29th of April, 1899.

    POST OFFICE (PARCEL POST WITH PORTUGAL, INCLUDING MADEIRA AND THE AZORES.)
    Agreement for the express delivery of parcels exchanged between the United Kingdom of Great Britain and Ireland and Portugal, including Madeira and the Azores.
    Presented [by Command], and ordered to lie on the Table.

    PRISONS (IRELAND).
    Order in Council, approving of a rule made by the General Prisons Board, dated 5th May, 1899; laid before the House (pursuant to Act), and ordered to lie on the Table.
  PETITIONS.
    VACCINATION ACTS.
    Petition for repeal of; of Guardians of the Poor of St. Mary's, Islington; read, and ordered to lie on the Table.
    MUNICIPAL CORPORATIONS (BOROUGH FUNDS) ACT, 1872.
    Petition for amendment of; of Urban District Council of Wimbledon; read, and ordered to lie on the Table.
    HOUSE OF LORDS OFFICES.
    First Report from the Select Committee, made; and to be printed; and to be considered on Thursday next. (No. 91.)
    SUPREME COURT (APPEALS) BILL.
    Returned from the Commons and agreed to, with Amendments; Commons Amendments considered (on motion), and agreed to, with an amendment; and Bill returned to the Commons.
    LINCOLNSHIRE CORONERS BILL [Lords].
    Reported from the Standing Committee with Amendments. The Report thereof to be received on Thursday next; and Bill to be printed as amended. (No. 94.)
    PARISH COUNCILLORS (TENURE, OF OFFICE) BILL.
    Reported from the Standing Committee with an Amendment. The Report thereof to be received on Thursday next; and Bill to be printed us amended. (No. 95.)
    INFECTIOUS DISEASE (NOTIFICATION) ACT (1889) EXTENSION BILL.
    Reported from the Standing Committee with out amendment, and to be read 3a on Thursday next.
    PUBLIC LIBRARIES (SCOTLAND) ACTS AMENDMENT BILL.
    Reported from the Standing Committee with out amendment, and to be read 3a on Thursday next.
    LICENSING (DISQUALIFICATION OF JUSTICES REMOVAL) BILL [Lords].
    Reported from the Standing Committee without amendment, and to be read 3a on Thursday next.
  ISOLATION HOSPITALS ACT (AMENDMENT)BILL [Lords].

    SECOND READING
    Order for Second Reading read.
    THE EARL OF LICHFIELD: My Lords, the Hill which I am now asking your Lordships to read a second time has been introduced with the object of amending certain recently-discovered flaws in the Isolation Hospitals Act of 1893. That Act applies to England and Wales, but not to Scotland, Ireland, the County of London or County Boroughs. It empowers County Councils to provide or cause to be provided within their respective administrative areas isolation hospitals to serve the district, and it also empowers the County Councils to contribute out of the county rate towards the maintenance of these hospitals. Though the Public Health Act of 1875 has been in operation for 24 years, it has not succeeded in covering the country with isolation hospitals to anything like the extent which is now thought necessary. That is no doubt owing to the fact that the Act is entirely permissive. In Staffordshire we have only one-sixth of the necessary hospital accommodation, provided under the Act of 1875, and to remedy this state of affairs our County Council has lately promulgated a scheme whereby, under certain conditions, they agree to contribute towards the annual expenses of hospitals established under the Act of 1893, and they have also prepared a tentative plan under which the county is divided into suitable hospital districts. We have in our county something like 57 authorities, urban and rural, but under the scheme now proposed we hope to divide the county into only 16 suitable hospital areas. These hospitals are intended to serve a very large population, but in almost every case, except where there are scattered rural districts, they will not be more than five miles from any part of the population they are intended to serve. It seems obvious that a scheme of grouping, such as I have mentioned must he conducive lour to economy and efficiency. It will be conducive to economy, because where you have a large hospital the expense per bed for construction is less than it would he in a small hospital; and where you have a large hospital serving a large district, the number of beds pro rata of the popu-
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    lation necessary, is less than the number of beds required in a small hospital serving a small district. This grouping also contributes to efficiency, because in a large hospital the staff would be more likely to be up to the times and efficient, than the staff of a small hospital where cases may only be admitted perhaps at intervals of weeks or months. What is occurring in my own county is also taking place throughout the whole of England and Wales. County Councils are desirous of taking advantage of the Act of 1893, and in some cases, indeed, they have already taken partial advantage of that Act, but unfortunately a serious flaw has recently been discovered in it. It had been assumed that where efficient Hospitals were in existence, built under the Act of 1875, with the assent of the local authority and the Local Government Board, they might be transferred to the new Hospital Committees, and that the County Councils might contribute to such hospitals if they so pleased. Unfortunately, the Local Government Board have decided that in neither of these cases is it legal so to act, and thus the operations of the Act of 1893 are seriously imperilled. In fact, at the present time there is a deadlock existing in many counties. It will be obvious that, where a comprehensive scheme is initiated by the County Council, in all fairness the Council should he able to give assistance to all parts of the county throughout the administrative area; but the effect of the decision of the Local Government Board will be that where the local authorities have done their duty and have established efficient hospitals, they will he doubly penalised. In the first place, they will be unable either to sell their hospital or obtain a contribution from the County Council. In the second place, they will have to pay their proportion of the county rate to maintain hospitals in other districts in their county which have not been so forward as they have been in providing proper hospital accommodation. Under these circumstances it is cry essential that there should be some alteration in the law. I should not have brought this matter forward on my own responsibility or for the benefit only of my county. But this is a matter of great importance to the whole of England and Wales, and I am bringing in this Bill with the assent and the

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    full support of the County Councils Association of England and Wales, who are most anxious that a change should be made in the law as speedily its possible. I will very briefly refer to the provisions of this Bill. Clause 2 provides that any district council and any joint board constituted under the Public Health Act, 1875, which has provided or acquired under the Public Health Act, 1875, or under any local Act of Parliament, a hospital for the reception of the sick may, with the sanction of the Local Government Board, agree to and carry into effect a transfer and conveyance to the council of the county within which their district is situate, of such hospital and its appurtenances upon such terms and conditions as may be sanctioned by the Local Government Board. Under Clause 4 power is also given to county councils, where they deem it expedient so to do for the benefit of the county, to contribute out of the county rate, on such conditions as they may prescribe, a capital or annual sum towards the structural and the establishment expenses of an isolation hospital or hospitals provided either before or after the passing of this Act by a District Council or a joint board under the Public Health Act, 1875, or under any local Act of Parliament, or to either class of such expenses. Clause 5 gives power to County Councils to borrow money, which they have not the power to do under the Act of 1893. Many County Councils prefer to contribute to the building of these hospitals rather than to give an annual grant, and it is very much desired that they should have the power to borrow money. I am afraid I have troubled your Lordships at some length, but I was anxious to explain the position as best I could. I hope my noble friend who represents the Local Government Board will be able to advise the House to allow the Bill to be read a second time. If there are any points on which we may not be quite agreed, they may be left over for discussion, and, I hope, settlement, in committee If the Bill is read a second time I do not propose to put down the Committee stage until after the Whitsuntide recess. I beg to move that the Bill be read a second time.
    Moved—
    "That the Bill be now read 2a."
    LORD HARRIS: My Lords, so far as
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    the provisions of the Bill give power to a County Council to contribute towards the expenses of a hospital that has been provided by a local authority or Joint Board under the Public Health Act, 1875, or under a local Act, and so far as they give power to the County Council to borrow for the purpose of acquiring the hospitals, the Local Government Board see no objection to the Bill, and quite approve of it; but they are not so satisfied as regards the proposal for taking over a hospital already in existence, and they would prefer to reserve their opinion upon that point until an opportunity is given for further consideration of the subject. The noble Lord cannot, I think, take the Committee stage until after the Whitsuntide recess, and that will give the Local Government Board an opportunity of looking further into the Bill.
    On question, agreed to.
    Bill read 2a (according to order) and committed to a committee of the whole House.

  METROPOLITAN WATER COMPANIES BILL.

    COMMITTEE.
    House in Committee (according to order).
    Clause 1:—
    VISCOUNT HAMPDEN: The Amendment which I now move is a very simple one, and provides that the money required for the construction of works under the Bill should be raised by the companies actually constructing the works. The whole of the companies are agreed as to the desirability of this Amendment, which will avoid administrative inconvenience. For instance, if one company should have to raise £5,000 for the construction of works under this Bill, it is desirable that that company should raise the capital itself amid not be required to go to the other companies to ask them to raise separately £600 or £700 apiece. It was simply owing to an oversight that this Amendment was not put in upstairs in Committee.
    Amendment moved—
    "In page 2, line 1, to leave out "and maintaining"—(Viscount Hampden).
    LORD JAMES OF HEREFORD: I accept the Amendment of my noble friend.
    Amendment agreed to.
    Amendment moved—
    "In line 2, after 'borne' to insert 'and the money required for the construction of such works shall be raised by the issue of debenture stock under the powers of this Act by the company actually constructing the same, but the interest on such stock shall, subject as herein-after provided, be borne.'"—(Viscount Hampden).
    Agreed to.
    Clause, as amended, agreed to.
    Clause 2:—
    LORD JAMES OF HEREFORD: My Lords, the Amendment which I now move is rendered necessary by the subsequent Amendment which I have on the paper to strike out the whole of Clause 3. This Amendment raises a question which is certainly not without importance, and I think a few words from me are necessary to explain to your Lordships why these in charge of the Bill have thought it right to take exception to the finding of the Select Committee of your Lordships' House with regard to the sinking fund clause. The inter-communication of the systems of the water companies was proposed in order to avoid the recurrence of a water famine, and the water companies cheerfully undertook the obligation. But your Lordships must understand that the expenditure which they will have to make in order to effect this inter-communication never can produce them any return by way of profit. When this question of inter-communication came before Lord Llandaff's Commission, that Commission recommended that in respect of the capital raised for this purpose the usual sinking fund clause should be introduced. It is upon that recommendation that the Government introduced this Bill in the House of Commons without, any sinking fund clause. When the Bill came before the House of Commons the insertion of the sinking fund clause was not insisted upon, although the London County Council is strongly represented in that. House; but the Select Committee of your Lordships' House to which the Bill was referred have inserted the clause. The
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    responsibility must rest with this House in Committee, but the Government still adhere, and strenuously adhere, to the original decision of these who framed this Bill and conducted it through Parliament. It is clear that the sinking fund clause ought not to be inserted in this Bill. Consider for one moment the origin of this clause. Twelve or 13 years ago a Committee, presided over by Lord Claude Hamilton, recommended that if the water companies in the Metropolis borrowed capital money there should be a sinking fund clause inserted in any Bills giving them power to raise that further capital, but what was the object of the recommendation? The object of inserting the clause was that when the companies came to be purchased there would not be a large amount of capital to be paid for by the purchasers. But the capital to be raised by this Bill is not to be used to earn profit, and, therefore, the Government think that the justice of the case requires the omission of the sinking fund clause. The companies will have to perform this duty for the benefit of the consumers without profit or return, and therefore should not be made to contribute to the sinking fund. I know great respect ought to be paid to the decision of the Select Committee of your Lordships' House. I can only say that I have read every word of the argument that was used by the London County Council before that Committee, and I cannot find one suggestion to reply to the reasons that I have given why this sinking fund clause should not be inserted, except the repeated phrase, "You ought to follow precedent." The precedents cannot affect this case, which springs from another and different condition of things.
    Amendment moved—
    "On page 3, after line 7 insert 'Provided that a company shall not be required to carry to a sinking fund a percentage on the amount of money for the time being raised by the issue of debenture stock created under the powers of this Act.'"—(Lord James of Hereford.)
    LORD RIBBLESDALE: My Lords, as Chairman of the Select Committee whose action you have just been asked to override, I should like to say a few words on the question of the sinking fund clause, and give to your Lordships the reasons which influenced the Committee to put

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    the sinking fund clause into the Bill. The noble Lord who has just moved the rejection of the clause lays great stress on the fact that this Bill is in a different category as regards the sinking fund clause to all other Metropolitan Water Bills. To a certain length I am in agreement with him. It is different because it proposes to transfer powers which have been most jealously guarded and exercised by Parliament to a Government Department, but the noble Lord advises you to further intensify the difference between this and other Metropolitan Water Bills in a most important and far-reaching way. He invites you to cut out the sinking fund clause which has been inserted by the Select Committee, and which, upon grounds of public policy and public in-interest, Parliament has inserted since 1886 into every London Water Bill, and which now applies, I believe, to something over nine millions of capital. Who were the parties to the suit who came before the Select Committee? The parties were the Government and the water companies, and, taking the opposite view of the case, the London County Council and the Corporation of London. The question I asked myself, and which I still ask myself, is, which of these authorities are most likely to understand all the bearings of this great problem of the water supply of London in the interests, and the just interests, of the public of London? Is it the Government and the water companies who tell you that you are to omit this sinking fund clause, or is it the London County Council and the Corporation of London who strongly urge, and as far as they can, insist upon the clause being inserted? With all respect to Her Majesty's Government, it seems to me that the London County Council and the Corporation of London are the bodies most directly responsible, and, further than that, the bodies most directly informed, conversant with, and alive to, all the conditions of this great question. The London County Council came into existence in 1889, and I believe the London water question at once began to absorb its most strenuous industry and investigation. They tried to master it in every possible way. In 1891, they came to Parliament with Bills dealing with the whole question. The Committee presided over by Sir Matthew White Ridley reported that as the representative municipal authority of London
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    the London County Council should examine and deal with the whole question of the water supply of the Metropolis, and recommend a policy which, for financial and other reasons, it was desirable to adopt. Over and over again I believe that has been affirmed by other Committees and Commissions, and it has been recognised that this water question is the peculiar province of the representative municipal body—namely, the London County Council. What was the view of the London County Council? Acting in most close and notable concert with the Corporation of London—notable because it is very unusual— the London County Council came to Parliament and told us in the strongest possible way that the capital proposed to be raised by this Hill should be treated as all other capital has invariably been treated by the wisdom and by the foresight of Parliament, and that, in the interest of the consumers, and especially having regard to the fact that a Royal Commission, presided over by Lord Llandaff, is just about to report on the whole question of the London water supply, a sinking fund clause should be put into this Bill. I will now come to the other point made by the noble Lord, which is the main ground upon which he says the sinking fund clause should not be inserted—namely, that the capital proposed to be raised under the Bill is dead money, and that the companies will not get a shilling out of it. He relies for that statement upon two or three sentences in the Interim Report of the Royal Commission, which, of course, I refer to with the greatest possible respect, but which I venture to think are exceedingly ambiguous. I confess that the argument put forward that the capital to be raised under this Bill should be exempted from the sinking fund clause on the ground of not making a profit does not appear to me to hold water even in a Water Bill. I think you might just as well say that the large sums of money which Messrs. Pears and Lipton spend annually on advertising are not profit-earning capital, as to pretend that the money to be raised under this Bill will not be profit-earning capital. What are the conditions that have brought this Bill into being? The default of the East London Water Company. I am not using the word in an offensive way; it constantly occurs in the Report of the Commission. The default of the East London Water Company to carry out its

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    obligations naturally caused a great deal of feeling, and brought the whole question of the London water supply, as it were, to a head. That default other companies felt threatened their existence, and they very naturally, in self-preservation, decided to take joint action. They are most ready and most willing to meet the Government's view, recognising that this Bill would enable them to raise additional capital which would be a most valuable insurance against risk, and would enable them to carry on their business and continue to earn their profits. In this connection I should like to quote the learned counsel for the water companies—Mr. Pember. Speaking with all the cogency of which he is a master, he said, when he was urging us not to put in this clause, that if the clause was inserted it would—
    "seriously amend the Bill against the water companies, for whose benefit, in a very great degree, the Bill was conceived."
    I was so surprised at this statement that I gave him an opportunity of correcting himself by saying that I thought the Bill was introduced for the benefit of the public, but he did not avail himself of the opportunity.
    LORD JAMES OF HEREFORD: He did correct himself. He said it was for the benefit of the public.
    LORD RIBBLESDALE: I quite agree with Mr. Pember that this Bill will prove of enormous benefit to the water companies, and will give them a new and unlimited lease of power and authority. The Select Committee were unanimous in the course they took, and I have a letter here from Lord Newton in which he says he is unfortunately obliged to go away owing to his Yeomanry inspection, otherwise he would be very glad to corroborate my statement as to the unanimity of the Committee with regard to the insertion of this clause. I defend the Committee's action on three main grounds—namely, (1) that the London County Council and the Corporation of London are better judges of the just interests of the people of London, present and future, than Her Majesty's Government and the water companies; (2) that the capital to be raised under this Bill, inasmuch as it adds to the dividend-earning and paying capacity of the water companies and to the stability of their undertakings, should be
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    treated as these issues of capital have invariably been treated since 1886; and (3) that no good economic or financial reasons can lie shown for interrupting the practice of Parliament and the continuity of legislation by omitting the sinking fund clauses which have now been applied by Parliament to nine millions of capital.
    VISCOUNT KNUTSFORD: My Lords, in my opinion the Committee have taken up a false position in regarding the money to be raised under this Bill as dividend-earning money. The money is to be raised for the special purpose of saving the water consumers from the very painful and distressing evils from which they suffered last year. I am not going to defend the East London Water Company or to attack them, but I would point out that the other companies have not failed in any way to supply their customers with water. They felt, however, that for the benefit of the water consumers of East London inter-communication should be made between the various companies. This inter-communication will benefit the company which fails to give water and the consumers, but it does not in any way benefit the large majority of the companies. If the companies were raising money for the purpose of earning more dividend, then certainly the sinking fund clause ought to be put in. But this money is to be raised for a special purpose; no profit can be made on it, but interest will have to be paid upon it. I fail to see any ambiguity in the Report of the Royal Commission, who distinctly expressed the opinion that capital raised for works of intercommunication might fairly be raised without the imposition of the sinking fund clause. Not only has the Royal Commission decided in this way, but a Special Committee of the House of Commons decided against the insertion of the sinking fund clause in this Bill, and an attempt to reopen the same question on the third reading of the Bill was negatived without a Division. The House of Commons itself has practically decided against the insertion of this Clause three times, and I hope your Lordships will have regard to that fact and accept the Amendment of the Government.
    LORD TWEEDMOUTH: My Lords, I will not go at length into the general question, but I should like to address my-

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    self straightly and frankly to the points raised—first, that the particular capital referred to in this Bill is not dividend-earning capital; and, secondly, that any contribution to the sinking fund that is paid in respect of such capital would come, not out of that particular capital, but out of other dividend-earning capital. I hold, and I think I shall gain your Lordships' assent, that in taking a mass of capital applied to a particular enterprise it is impossible to differentiate between the dividend-earning power of one sovereign and another sovereign. The fact of the matter is the whole of the capital is applied for the benefit of the particular enterprise, and that in a larger or smaller degree the whole of the capital earns interest. This is particularly the case with regard to the capital under this Bill, because it is not to be applied to any particular works. It is not even laid down that it shall be applied to works of inter-communication. It is laid down that it may be applied to any works whatever which may receive the sanction of the Local Government Board.
    LORD JAMES OF HEREFORD: For that purpose.
    LORD TWEEDMOUTH: I contend, in the strongest possible manner, that there is no limitation whatever to the works which may be performed under this Bill, with the exception that they are not to be works for the purpose of obtaining water from new sources, and that the works are to receive the sanction of the Local Government Board. Under this Bill (and I challenge a denial) it is perfectly possible for the companies to make new reservoirs, new filter beds, and new service mains out of the capital authorised by its provisions if they only get the sanction of the Local Government Board. They can spend £5,000,000 or £10,000,000 during the next ten years on the various works to which I have alluded. I now come to the question whether this particular capital ought to be liable to a charge for the sinking fund or not. I contend that it should, because the new capital and the old capital must be added together in one lump. If the interest on capital at present issued amounts to 8 or 9 per cent. and the interest on the new capital amounts to only 3 per cent., the dividend on the capital as a whole is diminished.
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    The new capital must come into the reckoning in a perfectly fair and straightforward manner. I must say that the circumstances of this Bill are such as to create no little surprise. The noble Lord rather put it that the water companies were, being hardly treated by the insertion of this clause. You have given to these water companies a monopoly over one of the greatest necessities to human life, and especially to human life in this great city; and if you give these companies a monopoly you require from them certain duties, and I will put it to noble Lords in this House whether they can honestly say that they consider these companies have rightly discharged their duties in the past. I quite admit that you may differentiate between the different companies, but it is impossible to say they have fulfilled their duty of supplying the people of London with water either in sufficient quantities or of sufficiently good quality. The water companies themselves admitted the desirability and the necessity of the inter-communication which is proposed in this Bill, and at the beginning of the session they introduced a Bill which would have gone before the Private Bills Committee and passed through Parliament in the ordinary course, and which, I have no doubt, would have contained the Sinking Fund Clause. The Government came forward and said this was a matter they would deal with themselves, and in framing the Bill they have violated the practice of Parliament for the last thirteen years in regard to the sinking fund clause, and have taken out of the hands of Parliament the power of saying what amount of capital should be issued and to what works it should be applied. That is not a fair way to deal with London or with this House, and I hope your Lordships will at any rate so far mitigate the harm which may be done by this Bill by rejecting the proposal of the noble Lord the Chancellor of the Duchy.
    Viscount HAMPDEN: My Lords, the noble Lord who presided over the Select Committee has marshalled together before your Lordships a number of authorities. He named the Government, the water companies, the County Council, and the City Corporation, and he then asked which of these authorities was the I most deserving of consideration. He replied himself to this question by stating that the London County Council knew

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    more about the subject than any of the other authorities. I admire the courage of that argument, because, as a matter of fact, when the Committee gave their decision that the sinking fund clause should be put in, they had heard the counsel for the County Council, but had not heard the case for the water companies. I disagree with the statement of the noble Lord who has just spoken that the money raised under this Bill can be applied to other than works necessary for inter-communication. When he charges the water companies with not having fulfilled their trust, my answer to him is that the Lambeth Water Company, of which I am a shareholder and a director, have always fulfilled their duty to the public, and that they only come into this Bill because they think it is necessary to act on the invitation of Her Majesty's Government and take measures for insuring against such a state of things as occurred in East London a few years ago. I can quite understand the opposition id the County Council to the existence of the London water companies. This opposition has been so often expressed that really no Hew development could have taken one by surprise; but I should have thought the County Council would have come to the conclusion that it was almost time to stop spending the ratepayers' money on litigation and leave the issue to be decided by Her Majesty's Government and Parliament, now that the question is before a Royal Commission. I should have thought that they would have treated with equity and consideration the great interests they are attacking. The Royal Commission has reported that it would be undesirable that this sinking fund clause should be applied to expenditure on inter-communication. The Government have introduced a Bill without that clause, and a Special Committee in the other House have endorsed the action of the Government. Under these circumstances, I should say there was a considerable amount of authority demanding and justifying the exclusion of the sinking fund clause, and that when the matter came before a Committee of your Lordships' House, that Committee should have been very careful not to come to any decision without hearing both sides and every argument that could he addressed to them. I have the shorthand writer's notes here, and what happened was this: the noble
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    Lord the Chairman of the Committee was asked whether the Sinking Fund question could be treated as a matter to be discussed on the preamble stage or the clause stage, and it was pointed out to him that if it was treated on the chaise stage the counsel for the water companies could be heard. The noble Chairman said the question should be treated on the clause stage, and the counsel for the water companies made no speech on the preamble stage. When the counsel for the London County Council had finished, I the Committee deliberated, and then they gave their decision that the preamble was proved subject to the condition of the sinking fund clause being put in. I do not charge the noble lord with anything more than an error of judgment, and, indeed, he saw himself afterwards that an error of judgment had been made, because when his attention was called to the fact that the other side had not been heard, he said it would be best that they should treat the thing with an open mind. But that was impossible when fettered by a decision given in open court. What made it more unpleasant for us was that the noble Lord who has just spoken, who is an active member of the London County Council, was present in the room. He was perfectly within his right in being there, but he went further and instructed one member of the Committee as to the character of the sinking fund. I certainly think this was an imprudent act on his part. What would he have said if I, as a shareholder in a London water company, and a member of your Lordships' House, had been present in the committee room and given advice as to the sinking fund.
    LORD TWEKDMOUTH: I absolutely gave no information whatever. It is true that I did give to one member of the Committee who was in doubt as to what the sinking fund clauses were a very short statement as to the way the fund worked.
    VISCOUNT HAMPDEN: That is my point.
    LORD TWEEDMOUTH: Does the noble Viscount impute to me a desire to influence the Committee unfairly?
    A NOBLE LORD: You were certainly

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    not the proper person to describe the clause.
    LORD TWEEDMOUTH: I am sorry if I have offended in any way, but I assure the House that I did not express any opinion one way or the other. Anything I said might probably more likely have been taken an argument against my own view than otherwise.
    VISCOUNT HAMPDEN: I accept the noble Lord's explanation, but I am sure he took a course which was open to misconstruction. In conclusion, I would urge that the principle of the sinking fund is not applicable to the expenditure contemplated under this particular Bill and which is incurred entirely as an insurance against the recurrence of certain emergencies which may perhaps never have to be encountered. To apply the sinking fund clause to this expenditure would be to inflict very great injustice on the shareholders of these companies.
    LORD DAVEY: I am not going to follow my noble friend in discussing the conduct of the London County Council in opposing this Bill and in seeking to have this clause inserted, nor am I going to follow my noble friend in his criticisms of the conduct of the Select Committee. I desire for a few minutes to recall to the House what is really the issue before us. As I understand, it is admitted on all sides, and it cannot be denied, that for a long number of years it has been the custom to insert a sinking fund clause into all Water Bills which come before Parliament seeking to raise further capital. Nor is it denied that it would be proper to insert it at this Bill, except for one circumstance. The noble Lord who moved the Amendment said this capital will not be dividend-bearing or profit-producing capital—that it is expenditure which will not increase the income-producing capacity of the undertaking, and will not result in any financial benefit to the shareholders. I venture to say, my Lords, that that is a most astounding fallacy. In the first place, I would point out the utter impossibility, when you are calculating the dividend which is paid by a company on its capital, to distinguish one part of its capital from another. You do not pay a dividend on one part of the capital, but on the whole, and for the purpose of ascertaining the dividend you
    708
    must take into consideration the whole expenditure. What is this expenditure for? It is for the purpose of improving the water supply of London, and enabling the water companies the better to serve their customers; and it is new to me to be told that because a shopkeeper, a tradesman, or a merchant, provides greater facilities for the supply of a superior class of article and with greater permanence and regularity to Ins customers that then, the money he expended with tins object is not to be treated as dividend-bearing expenditure. I should have thought it was the very essence of dividend-bearing expenditure, spent for the purpose of producing that which would in turn produce the income. This expenditure is in the nature of a mutual insurance by the companies of each other against a deficiency of supply, and it would be certainly strange if anyone were to say that money spent by a shipowner on premiums for insuring his vessel is not part of his dividend-bearing expenditure. If that is the only argument for striking out this clause, I venture to think it is an entire fallacy, and I hope the Amendment will not be accepted.
    LORD JAMES OF HEREFORD: The noble and learned Lord who has just spoken is under a total misapprehension as to the obligations which are cast upon the companies by this Bill. He has spoken of the impossibility of separating capital, and has said that you will be unable to discover whether money spent is earning capital or not; but the effect of this Bill is far different from such hypothesis. By this Bill, if, in the East of London, a water famine is anticipated, then the Local Government Board calls, not upon the East London Water Company, but upon all the companies to contribute a fund for the purpose of bringing water to East London to meet the needs of that district. The primary object of the measure is to enable relief to be given to the East London Water Company in the event of drought or other emergency. Such companies as the Southwark and Vauxhall Company may be called upon to pay something like £50,000 under the Bill, but may not benefit by it. How is the interest on that sum found?
    LORD DAVEY: If the Vauxhall Company's supply falls short, it will have the benefit of the Act.
    LORD JAMES OF HEREFORD: Yes, but the Vauxhall Company never has run short, but certainly will have to pay if any company runs short, and why then should yon anticipate that it will receive benefit? It never can, in any reasonably probable event, receive money from any customer in return for that £50,000, and inasmuch as it will not benefit it should not be subject to the sinking fund clause. Strange language has been used I think, and misapprehension shown by the noble Lord the Chairman of the Committee, He has spoken of this as a water Bill and has referred to precedents. A Water Bill is a measure promoted and introduced by a water company asking for further powers in order that it may supply a greater area and thereby obtain larger returns. This Bill, on the other hand, is not promoted by a. water company, but is a Bill introduced by the Government to compel the water companies to connect their mains and to come to the relief of a company whose supply is not adequate to meet the needs of the district. There is no precedent between former Bills of the water companies and this Bill. The noble Lord the Chairman of the Committee said the Committee asked themselves who were likely to know more about this question—the County Council and the Corporation of the City of London, or the Government and the water companies? The Committee listened to the counsel of the London County Conned, but they did not hear the counsel on behalf of the Government. Why? Because they said "the Government know nothing about it, and the County Council know everything." What an amount of trouble the adoption of this procedure would save my noble friend the Lord Chancellor! All he would have to do would be to ask himself which of the suitors who appeared before him would be more likely to tell the truth. He would say "A is likely to know more about this than B. I will decide in favour of A, which will save me the trouble of considering the arguments of B." This was the method by which the Committee arrived at their decision. The Committee received a visit during one of its sittings from the noble Lord (Lord Tweedmouth), whose presence must have been of great moral assistance to the Chairman of the Committee.
    LORD TWEEDMOUTH: I was in the
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    Committee room for half an hour or twenty minutes while counsel was making a speech for the County Council, and then I left the room.
    LORD JAMES OF HEREFORD: The noble Lord gave the Chairman his moral support.
    LORD TWEEDMOUTH: Not at all; that is a most unworthy suggestion.
    LORD RIBBLESDALE: I saw present Lord Tweedmouth and the noble Lord opposite—[Earl COWPER.— "I was there to give evidence"]—but I did not ask Lord Tweedmouth to give evidence.
    LORD JAMES OF HEREFORD: At any rate my noble friend Lord Tweed-mouth himself says that he explained to a member of the Committee, while he was acting as a member of the Committee, what was the effect of the sinking fund clause. My noble friend (Lord Tweed-mouth) may take one view of what is the effect of the sinking fund clause, and another noble Lord may take another view. May I ask my noble friend, would it not have been better for him to have gone into the witness-box?
    LORD TWEEDMOUTH: I should have gone into the witness-box if I had been asked.
    LORD JAMES OF HEREFORD: Why should the explanation not have been given before the public rather than to one member of the Committee. I think the House ought to understand that whilst this matter was discussed the counsel for the London County council very forcibly and at great length argued in favour of the insertion of the sinking fund clause, and that the counsel for the Water Companies was given to understand than he could reply to these arguments the Clause stage. The opponents to the sinking fund clause, therefore, did not say one word in answer to the arguments of the County Council on the preamble, and it was to the astonishment of everybody that the Committee announced that the preamble was proved subject to the insertion of a sinking fund clause. Lord Tweedmouth said it was impossible to tell the dividend-earning capacity of one sovereign as compared with another, but under certain conditions it is easy to

    711
    tell. If you have a fund paid in for a specific purpose you ought not to apply it to another. You can well separate one fund from another, and a Government auditor would require this money to be kept separate. You would be able to determine then what each portion of the capital raised under different conditions is earning.
    LORD RUSSELL OF KILLOWEN: My Lords, my reason for intervening is that I have received a communication from the chairman of the Surrey County Council, whose interests he apprehends may be affected by this Bill. I must say my noble and learned friend in charge of the Bill seemed in his observations to have lost the faith he originally professed in the merits of his proposal, and to have resorted to a contrivance to divert the judgment of the House from fair consideration of the merits by appeals to prejudice not conspicuous for good taste. My noble and learned friend suggested, in fact, that the Chairman of the Committee was in some way under the mesmeric influence of my noble friend Lord Tweedmouth, and that under the influence so exerted upon him he did not exercise that judicial faculty which his position required. The question, however, is not one to get excited about. A vital point has been put when it is shown that in water Bills for thirteen years the sinking fund clause has been invariably introduced. The onus, therefore, lies upon my noble and learned friend to justify the making of this Bill an exception on special grounds. The special grounds are that the expenditure which is involved or may be involved under the operation of this Bill does not come within the category of dividend-earning expenditure. I agree with my noble and learned friend (Lord Davey) that that is an entire misconception of the position and a complete fallacy. This is a Bill which enables the London water companies, which for this purpose are to be treated as one, with certain differentiations, to do what they have not legal power to do at present. I am not a water company director, nor even a water company shareholder. I approach the matter, therefore, entirely unbiassed, and I will take the illustration that has been given. The Vauxhall Company, for example, want no additional supply, but they may supply a company which wants water. Is the company to
    712
    be paid for that supply or not? What is the answer to that question? If they are to he paid, how can it be said that it is not part of an operation involving their earning power? The East London Company, on the other hand, want to Increase their supply because they know that they cannot get their water rates unless they supply water. Accordingly, the Vauxhall Company supply them with water in order to satisfy their customers and to earn the water rate, and it is paid for such supply. Is not that increasing the earning power of the company?
    THE PRIME MINISTER AND SECRETARY OF STATE FOR FOREIGN AFFAIRS (The Marquess of SA LISBURY): My Lords, I think the noble and learned Lord has omitted a contingency in respect of which no dividend-earning power can avail—namely, that there is no use whatever of this machinery which is to he put up. This machinery has been put up, perhaps rather in alarm, in consequence of the very unusual drought which occur red two years ago, and as far as we can judge of the future by the past the same difficulty may never occur again. The machinery has been put up, because the East London Company failed then to do its duty; and therefore it is undoubtedly to that extent an addition to the resources of the East London Company annul to tire remedy of their defects. But it will neither cause the company nor any other companies to give more water or to receive more water; and therefore neither of the two sides which constitute the alternative which the noble Lord has conceived to be irrefragable can prevail, nor will the Vauxhall Company derive any dividend whatever from the money which you force them to spend. Of the East London Company alone can it be inferred—and only in an indirect fashion—that this money is in addition to their dividend-earning power. For the rest the money has been spent, not by the desire of the companies, not at their request, but by the obligation imposed upon them by the Government; and there is no pretence for saying that it adds to their dividend-earning power. There is, therefore, no reason or justice in adding to the exaction imposed upon them by requiring them to provide a sinking fund as well. That seems to me the whole state of the case. I agree with the noble and learned Lord that there

    713
    have been sundry personal matters which have inevitably found their way into this Debate in consequence of the manner in which matters were conducted before the Committee. I do not think, however, that they have added to the clearness with which we can come to a decision. We heard of something being said to one of the judges secretly when the decision was in question. I confess it reminded me very much of the secret dossier; and I am almost inclined to regard the noble Lord opposite (Lord Tweedmouth) as part of the "General Staff" of the London County Council. I think, however, we may dismiss all these circumstances from our minds. What is meant by a water Bill is a Bill asking for power to raise capital to provide water; but this is not a water Bill, and therefore it is not touched by the 14 years' precedent cited.
    THE EARL or KIMBERLEY: I wish to say one word which bears on what was said by the noble Lord in charge of this Bill. I understood, the noble Lord to say that this obligation was imposed on the companies, and that the companies had not taken any step ill the matter. I have been informed that the companies themselves brought in a Bill containing to a very large extent the provisions of the measure before your lordships. The Government, however, took the Bill out of the measure is the result. The companies themselves had, therefore, felt the want of a Bill, and they were ready to come to Parliament for powers. Why? Because the companies perfectly well knew the danger and insecurity of their position when these water famines occurred, and when they could not supply water, and they felt that they would add to the security of their position by means of a Bill of this kind. Is it not a fact that this provision is in the nature of insurance for all these companies, whether they have to supply water or not to another company? Does anybody believe that the companies would not add to the safety and security of their capital, and to the probability of their long being allowed to continue in their present position, by obtaining the powers given wider this Bill? After all, I suppose we have to consider first the interests of the public, and I contend that the interests of the public loudly require that these companies, which undoubtedly have failed—
    714
    some to a very considerable extent—in supplying water, should be put in a position to adequately perform the duty which they originally undertook to perform when they were given this monopoly. To me it seems mere justice that when the time comes for these companies to be bought out at the expense of the London ratepayers the capital which has been raised under this Bill to enable them to properly perform their duty should not he treated as capital on which they are to receive compensation.
    On Question, their Lordships divided:—Contents, 51; Not-contents, 20.

    CONTENTS.

    Halsbury, E. (Lord Chancellor)

    St. Albans, L. Bp.

    Devonshire, D. (Lord President)

    Aldenham, L.

    Ashbourne, L.

    Cross, V. (Lord Privy seal)

    Brampton, L.

    Brougham and Vaux, L.

    Bedford, D.

    Calthorpe L.

    Northumberland, D.

    Churchill, L. [Teller]

    Westminster, D.

    Cottesloe, L.

    Farquhar, L.

    Abergavenny, M.

    Forester, L.

    Lansdowne, M.

    Glanusk, L.

    Salisbury, M.

    Harris, L.

    Heneage, L.

    Bradford, E.

    Herries, L.

    Brownlow, E.

    James, L.

    Cowper, E.

    Kelvin, L.

    Dartmouth, E.

    Lawrence, L. [Teller]

    Ducie, E.

    Mendip, L. (V. Clifden)

    Dudley, E.

    Lichfield, E.

    Mount Stephen, L.

    Onslow, E.

    Penrhyn, L

    Romney, E.

    Rosmead, L.

    Rosse, E

    Rothschild, L.

    Selborne, E.

    Saltoun, L.

    Stanhope, E.

    Shute, L. (V. Barrington

    Strange, E. (D. Atholl)

    Yarborough, E.

    Ventry, L.

    Wemyss, L. (E. Wemyss)

    Hampden, V.

    Knutsford, V.

    On Question, agreed to.

    NOT-CONTENTS.

    Buckinghamshire, E. [Teller]

    Aberdare, L.

    Burghclere, L.

    Carrington, E.

    Coleridge, L.

    Chesterfield, E. [Teller]

    Davey, L.

    Kimberley, E.

    Monkswell, L.

    Russell, E.

    Reay, L.

    Spencer, E.

    Ribblesdale, L.

    Russell of Killowen, L.

    Gordon, V. (E. Aberdeen)

    Stanley of Alderley, L.

    Thring, L.

    Peel V.

    Tweedmouth, L.

    Portman, V.

    LORD TWEEDMOUTH: The next Amendment standing in my name I move because I think it is right that a limit

    715
    should be fixed as to the amount of capital to be issued under this Bill. I think the noble Lord will agree that the circumstances under which this Bill is brought in are exceptional and peculiar. Moreover, it is urged that it is only a temporary measure for a temporary purpose, and that it docs not pretend to be a final solution of the water question, and is only intended to tide over a temporay difficulty until a final settlement is arrived at. Therefore, I hope your Lordships will accept this Amendment.
    Amendment moved, at the end of Clause 2, to add—
    "And provided that the total amount of such stock shall not exceed £500,000."—(Lord Tweedmouth.)
    LORD JAMES OF HEREFORD: I should be glad if I could meet the wishes of my noble friend, but the whole question is left to the discretion of the Local Government Board, who will see that no undue sum is expended. If my noble friend will put down his Amendment on the Report stage I will in the meantime consult my right honourable friend the President of the Local Government Board on this point, but I am afraid he will not give way.
    LORD TWEED MOUTH: I withdraw my Amendment now, and will put it down on the Report stage.
    Amendment, by leave of the House, withdrawn.
    Other Amendments agreed to.
    EARL COWPER: On the Second Reading of this Bill I pointed out that Subsection 2 of Section 1 went further than was at all necessary for the purpose of the Bill, and might have a very dangerous effect in enabling the companies to take water from places outside their present water limits. I also called attention to the immense harm which is being done owing to our springs and rivers being drained dry by these companies, and I expressed the desire which we all feel that this evil should not be increased. Lord James of Hereford received my remarks in the most courteous manner, assuring me that in his opinion there was no danger and that he did not interpret the clause in the way in which I had interpreted it.
    716
    The noble and learned Lord added that if there should be any doubt it would be removed, and stated that the promoters had no intention of allowing any more water to be extracted from Hertfordshire than was taken at the present time. When this Bill went into Committee a clause was agreed to by the promoters protecting Hertfordshire. Unfortunately Hertfordshire was mentioned by name, but there are other counties concerned. This clause was unexpectedly thrown out by the Committee at the instigation of the water companies. I cannot conceive that the water companies should have opposed this clause unless they took the same view as our legal adviser did—namely, that this Bill would give them extra powers. I think it is now generally admitted that there is a danger of what I have suggested happening if something is not done. We have never been heard in this matter. We have had no opportunity of saying anything either in the House of Commons or before a Committee of this House, and I am sure your Lordships will think with me that it would be most unjust that powers such as I have suggested should be conferred on the companies by a side wind against the intention of the promoters and without any argument whatever taking place on the subject. This seems to me so self-evident that I feel sure there can be no opposition to the new clause I now propose.
    Moved, to insert the following new clause—
    "Nothing in this Act shall authorise the construction by any metropolitan water company of any works for die purpose of utilising any supplies of water drawn from wells outside the water limits of the metropolitan water companies not now utilised under the powers possessed by such companies."—(Earl Cowper.)
    EARL STANHOPE: My Lords, as Hertfordshire only has been alluded to, perhaps I may be allowed, on behalf of the County Council of Kent, to say how much importance we attach to this Amendment. We are somewhat alarmed that the water under our chalk hills may be extracted for the benefit of London, and I have every hope that my noble and learned friend the Chancellor of the Duchy will accept the noble Earl's Amendment.
    LORD JAMES OF HEREFORD: On the Second Reading I was authorised to

    717
    state that the Government did not wish by the Bill to give the companies any further powers of taking water, and I therefore accept the clause, which was not inserted by the Select Committee owing to some misunderstanding. The clause proposed by the noble Earl carries out exactly what the Government intended, and therefore, as I have said, I gladly enough accept it.
    Standing Committee negatived: The Report of the Amendments to be received on Thursday next, and Standing Order No. 39 to be considered in order to its being dispensed with; and Bill to be printed as amended. (No. 92.)

    SOLICITOUS BILL [Lords].
    Commons Amendments considered (according to order), and agreed to.
  QUESTIONS.

    SIERRA LEONE.
    LORD STANLEY OF ALDERLEY: My Lords, I desire to call the attention of the House to the state of affairs in Sierra Leone or West Africa; and to ask what are the steps to restore order which the Secretary of State contemplates taking. With regard to the troubles in Sierra Leone, the first I heard of them was through the complaints of the head of a Manchester house doing a large trade with West Africa, I was told that he represented Mr. Chamberlain asdestroying the trade of West Africa. The Aborigines' journal of February last contains this extract from the letter of a leading Liverpool merchant:—
    "What can we do to put a slop to the shooting and hanging of these natives of Sierra Leone? It is a terrible business all round. Not only there, but in the Oil Rivers and up the Niger the conversion of the negro by means of lead is going on merrily, and so it will do. I fear, whilst the military rulers have the power in their hands unchecked, and every incentive in the; shape of pay, honour, and promotion to cause them to get up wars by which they may attract public notice. We want the whole system of government altering."
    The same journal describes these troops as "recruited from escaped and liberated slaves of defeated chiefs," and from "war-boys" no longer able to gratify
    718
    their savage inclinations in their old ways. Allegations are also made against the men and their officers that they compel aborigines with kicks and blows to carry their goods without wages, and that they abduct their daughters and ravish their wives. Here we have a repetition or revival of Kirke's Lambs, and they are being brought into this country. On Monday, the 8th, Crewe Station was swarming with West African negro troops going South from Liverpool, and the noble Earl the Under Secretary of State's reason for absence from London last Sunday and the days before and after was that he was training troops. Were these West Africans among them? And are they to lie named his or Mr. Chamberlain's Lambs? I hope he will have the Paschal lamb restored to their regimental Hag, so as to inculcate greater suavity than they are now manifesting in Sierra Leone. In January, 1898, an arbitrary demand was made for a hut tax m the way of rent, and by a Protectorate ordinance a claim was made of absolute ownership by the Crown of all the land of the country—outside the colony—with which we had treaties recognising the independence of the people, and obtaining only trading opportunities. The remonstrance of the Aborigines Secretary of October 10th, 1898, was in vain, and on the 24th Mr. Chamberlain sent a curt answer, saying that steps would be taken during the dry season to restore order in all parts of the Protectorate. One can readily imagine Mr. Chamberlain, whilst dictating that answer, chuckling and murmuring:—
    "A fico for the world and Quakers base, I speak of Africa and golden joys."
    The Aborigines Protection Society contains many Quakers, but the golden joys the Secretary of State thinks of are a full treasury from a usurped hut tax. The noble Earl the Under-Secretary of State, has, however, fully assimilated and adopted this spurious Imperialism of grasping new territories, whilst neglecting old, well-established and loyal colonies, for in his speech at Glasgow University on the 3rd May he again endeavoured to make the worse appear the better reasons for seizing on what he called unappropriated portions of the earth; and he sought for support in a recent speech of Lord lord Rosebery's, forgetting that it blamed extremes, such as the policy followed in Sierra Leone, and the disregard of Australian interests shown in the

    719
    duties on Australian wines. The noble Lord thinks ho has found a material justification for a usurpation of sovereignty and Crown rights over land in the needs of manufacturers for new markets; let him read Mr. Frederick Greenwood's article in the Nineteenth Century of April on the neglect by manufacturers of the markets they already possess. The argument that a commercial nation must die if it had not trade on which to live did not justify the enslaving of negroes hitherto free. There is one point upon which the noble Earl and myself are quite agreed, and that is in objecting to tinkering the Prayer-book. If the Commutation Service had not been set aside, the noble Earl would have been reminded that "cursed is he who removeth his neighbour's landmark"; a denunciation which applies as much to Governments as to individuals. The noble Earl went on to found what he called a moral justification for taking these now lands, in that
    "Their aim was to bring to them the blessings of liberty, of law, of peace and of civilisation."
    How can such an assertion be made in the face of the Sierra Leone Press, and the publications of the Aborigines Protection Society, which have not been contradicted or disproved by the Colonial Office. It seems to mo to be a cause for regret that the noble Earl is endangering the consistency of his character by continual advocacy of the Colonial Office acts and policy. For instance, his speeches in the Laymen's House of Convocation show that he goes as far as my noble friend Lord Halifax in his opinion of the incompetency of the Judicial Committee in spiritual matters, and I agree with them on that point.
    THE EARL OF SELBORNE: I have never mentioned the subject.
    THE MARQUESS OF SALISBURY: I think my noble friend is travelling outside the borders of his Notice.
    LORD STANLEY OF ALDERLEY: In a short time the noble Earl will be placed in a dilemma, should the Government persist in refusing to the clergy the relief as to rates given to other owners of land. If the noble Earl elects to retain the Under-Secretary ship in that contingency, it is only fair that I should give him notice
    720
    that I shall contest with him the next election for the chairmanship of the Church Defence Committee.
    THE UNDE SECRETARY OF STATE FOR THE COLONIES (the Earl of SELBORNE): My Lords, the noble Lord's question was, to ask what steps Her Majesty's Government were going to take to restore order in Sierra Leone. My answer to the noble Lord is that order is completely restored in Sierra, Leone. If the noble Lord wished to have a general debate on the subject of the recent disturbances I would suggest that he should wait until the Blue Book is published. The noble Lord has made a reflection on the action of the officers and men in the service of Her Majesty in the colony. Under circumstances of great climatic difficulties, of complete isolation in many cases, and in dealing with absolutely savage tribes, on the whole the officers who go out from this country show marvellous patience, great tact, and great humanity; and I repudiate altogether the reflections which the noble Lord has passed on their conduct. As regards the bloodshed in Sierra Leone, no one has been executed who was not tried by a judge sent out from this country and convicted of actual cold-blooded murder. With regard to the allegations that the Crown had provoked disturbances by claiming all the land in Sierra Leone, there is not the slightest shadow of a foundation for any such statement.
    House adjourned at a quarter to Seven of the clock, to Thursday next, half-past Ten of the clock.