Lords Sitting of 15 May 1899

PRIVATE BILL BUSINESS.
The Lord Chancellor acquainted the House that the Clerk of the Parliaments had laid upon the Table the Certificates from the Examiners that the Standing Orders applicable to the following Bills have been complied with—
ELECTRIC LIGHTING PROVISIONAL ORDERS (No. 1).
  ELECTRIC LIGHTING PROVISIONAL ORDERS (No. 10) [Lords].
    ELECTRIC LIGHTING PROVISIONAL ORDERS (No. 11) [Lords].
    And also the certificates that the further Standing Orders applicable to the following Bills have been complied with—

OWEN'S COLLEGE, MANCHESTER [Lords].
EDINBURGH CORPORATION.
GATESHEAD AND DISTRICT TRAM-WAYS.
GOOLE URBAN DISTRICT COUNCIL.
The same were ordered to lie on the Table.

GREAT GRIMSBY STREET TRAMWAYS BILL [Lords].
Reported with Amendments.
GLASGOW AND SOUTH-WESTERN RAILWAY BILL [Lords].
The Queen's Consent signified; and Bill reported from the Select Committee with Amendments.
PAISLEY AND BARRHEAD DISTRICT RAILWAY BILL [Lords].
Reported from the Select Committee with Amendments.
GREAT NORTHERN RAILWAY BILL [Lords].
The Queen's Consent signified; and Bill reported from the Select Committee with Amendments.
COLONIAL AND FOREIGN BANKS GUARANTEE FUND BILL [Lords].
Reported with Amendments.
BRIGHTON MARINE PALACE AND PIER BILL [Lords].
Reported with Amendments.
FURNESS RAILWAY BILL [Lords].
Reported with Amendments.
STRETFORD GAS BILL [Lords].
Reported with Amendments.
BRIGG URBAN DISTRICT GAS BILL.
Reported with Amendments.
TENTERDEN RAILWAY BILL.
Reported without Amendment.

LOWESTOFT WATER AND GAS BILL [Lords].
MOSS SIDE URBAN DISTRICT COUNCIL (TRAMWAYS) BILL [Lords].
STRETFORD URBAN DISTRICT COUNCIL (TRAMWAYS) BILL [Lords].
WITHINGTON URBAN DISTRICT COUNCIL (TRAMWAYS) BILL [Lords].
Committee to meet to-morrow.

YORKE ESTATE BILL [Lords].
Read 2a.
VALE OF GLAMORGAN RAILWAY BILL.
Read 3a, and passed.

WICK AND PULTENEY HARBOURS BILL [Lords].
ST. NEOTS WATER BILL [Lords].
BURY CORPORATION WATER BILL [Lords].
MERSEY DOCKS AND HARBOUR BOARD (PILOTAGE) BILL [Lords].
MERSEY DOCKS AND HARBOUR BOARD (FINANCE) BILL [Lords].
Read 3a, and passed, and sent to the Commons.

CHURCH STRETTON WATER BILL [Lords].
Read 3a; amendments made; Bill passed, and sent to the Commons.
HUMBER CONSERVANCY BILL [Lords].
  BEXHILL AND ST. LEONARDS TRAM ROADS BILL [Lords].
  Read 3a, and passed, and sent to the Commons.
BURLEY-IN-WHARFEDALE URBAN DISTRICT WATER BILL.
Read 3a, with the amendments; a further amendment made; Bill passed, and returned to the Commons.
NUNEATON AND CHILVERS COTON URBAN DISTRICT COUNCIL WATER BILL.
  WOODHOUSE AND CONISBROUGH RAILWAY (ABANDONMENT) BILL.
  Read 3a, with the amendments, and passed, and returned to the Commons.
REDDITCH GAS BILL.
  WEST MIDDLESEX WATER BILL.
  Brought from the Commons; read 1a; and referred to the Examiners.
WALLASEY TRAMWAYS AND IMPROVEMENT BILL [Lords].
Returned from the Commons agreed to, with amendments: The said amendments considered, and agreed to.
ELECTRIC LIGHTING PROVISIONAL ORDERS (No.1) BILL.
To be read 2a to-morrow. (The Earl of Dudley.)
ELECTRIC LIGHTING PROVISIONAL ORDERS (No.10) BILL [Lords].
To be read 2a to-morrow.
ELECTRIC LIGHTING PROVISIONAL ORDERS (No.11) BILL [Lords].
To be read 2a to-morrow.
PRIVATE AND PROVISIONAL ORDER CONFIRMATION BILLS.
Ordered, That Standing Orders Nos. 92 and 93 be suspended; and that the time for depositing Petitions praying to be heard against Private and Provisional Order Confirmation Bills, which would otherwise expire during the adjournment of the House at Whitsuntide, be extended to the first day on which the House shall sit after the Recess.
EDUCATION DEPARTMENT PROVISIONAL ORDER CONFIRMATION (LONDON) BILL [Lords].
Read 2a (according to order).
EDUCATION DEPARTMENT PROVISIONAL ORDER CONFIRMATION (LIVERPOOL) BILL [Lords].
Read 2a (according to order).
WESTON-SUPER-MARE, CLEVEDON, AND PORTISHEAD TRAMWAYS COMPANY (LIGHT RAILWAY EXTENSIONS) BILL [Lords].
Report from the Committee of Selection, That the Lord Raglan be proposed to the House as a Member of the Select Committee in the place of the Earl of Denbigh. Read and agreed to.
WATERMEN'S AND LIGHTERMEN'S ACTS AMENDMENT BILL [Lords].
Report from the Committee of Selection, That the Lord Raglan be proposed to the House as a Member of the Select Committee in the place of the Earl of Denbigh. Read, and agreed to.
RETURNS, REPORTS, &c.
  ARMY (PAY, &c).
  List of exceptions to Army Regulations as to pay, non-effective pay, and allowances sanctioned during the year ended 31st March 1899.
CROFTERS' HOLDINGS (SCOTLAND) ACTS, 1886–87.
Report by Crofters Commission, being for the year ended 31st December 1898.
DUBLIN METROPOLITAN POLICE.
Statistical tables for the year 1898.
BOARD OF AGRICULTURE.
Agricultural returns for Great Britain, showing the acreage and produce of crops, prices of corn, with agricultural statistics for the United Kingdom, British possessions, and foreign countries, 1898. Presented (by Command), and ordered to lie on the Table.
MEDWAY CONSERVANCY.
Statement of Receipts and Expenditure for the year ended 25th March, 1899. Delivered (pursuant to Act), and ordered to lie on the Table.
PETITIONS.
  INTOXICATING LIQUORS.
  Petition against the sale of, on Sundays; —Of the inhabitants of Aylesbury and elsewhere, in the County of Buckingham; read, and ordered to lie on the Table.
MUNICIPAL CORPORATION (BOROUGH FUNDS) ACT, 1872.
Petition for Amendment of;—Of the Northfleet Urban District Council; read, and ordered to lie on the Table.
PREVENTION OF CORRUPTION BILL [Lords].
Petition in favour of;—Of the Members of the Home and Foreign Produce Exchange, Limited; read, and ordered to lie on the Table.
BILL INTRODUCED.
  MARRIAGES VALIDITY BILL [Lords].
  A Bill to validate certain marriages was presented by the Lord Bishop of London; read 1a; and to be printed. (No. 90.)
PREVENTION OF CORRUPTION BILL [Lords].
To be read 2a, on Tuesday the 6th of June next.
SOLICITORS BILL [Lords].
Commons Amendments, to be considered To morrow.
QUESTIONS.

  RECRUITING FOR THE ARMY AND MILITIA.
  THE EARL OF WEMYSS: My Lords, I rise to call attention to an order issued from the Horse Guards, commanding the sergeant-instructors of the Volunteer Force to recruit for the Army and Militia, under penalty of dismissal unless this order is zealously obeyed. To enable your Lordships to clearly understand the position, it is necessary that I should go back to the state of things existing when Volunteering first began in 1859. The only inducement to Volunteering then was that if a volunteer
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  serving under the old Act of George III. lost a leg or an arm, he had the benefit of Chelsea Hospital, and if he was killed there was a pension for his wife. Your Lordships will recognise the wholesome element of patriotism which animated the Volunteer Force in the early days of the movement. Volunteers patiently bore expenses of all kinds, including the cost of uniform, accoutrements, drill sergeants, drill grounds, ranges, targets, armouries, armour, headquarters, advertising, postage, stationery, and travelling expenses. The State did little or nothing for the Volunteers, except give them the rifle of the day—the Snider—and from private sources no less a sum than £1,500,000 had been expended patriotically by the Volunteers and their friends in aid of the public service. The state of our defences was such that we all felt the desirability of something stronger being done. The subject was raised in the House of Commons in 1861, and a Commission appointed. The Commission reported in favour of help being given to the Volunteer Force, this help taking the form of a capitation grant and the payment of sergeants. These sergeants were appointed solely for the service of the Volunteers, and their number was in proportion to the men with whom they had to deal and to drill. What has happened? If it is true that the Order to which I refer in my question has been issued, and that these sergeants are employed in recruiting for the Army and Militia, all I can say is that assuredly such employment had not been present to the mind of the authorities of the War Office when the duties of these officers were first imposed. Under what power this Order is issued I do not know. When the Act of 1863 was passed, the Noble Duke the Lord President of the Council was Secretary of State for War, and it was clearly understood then that these men were appointed for the Volunteer Service, and the Act contained nothing which was intended in any way to interfere with the position or status of that force. But this Order has gone out, and remonstrances have been made against it. It has been pointed out that the Volunteer staff at present is insufficient in many cases to discharge its proper duty. The Volunteer Force under these circumstances naturally suffers in its efficiency. I have a letter here from the Commander-in-Chief,

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  in which it is stated that recruiting for the Army and Militia forms an integral part, and a very important part, of the duty of these sergeants. I venture to say, my Lords, that to make recruiting an integral part of the duty of these sergeant-instructors is a perversion of the intention of Parliament. The letter from the Commander-in-Chief continues:
  "If the Staff-sergeants fail in obtaining recruits, Lord Wolseley is prepared to take steps for their removal, and their replacement by others who will at least make every effort compatible with their other duties to raise recruits. The Commander-in-Chief will also look to the Adjutants of these corps in future taking a larger part in enforcing and stimulating this operation."
  A question was asked as to which of the duties were to have priority, and if the sergeants were to do double duty—their duty as sergeants of the Volunteer force and their duty as recruiting officers. The answer was that no priority of importance could be assigned to the duties attached to non - commissioned officers of the permanent staff.
  THE SECRETARY OF STATE FOR WAR (The Marquess of LANSDOWNE): From what is the noble Lord quoting?
  THE EARL OF WEMYSS: I am quoting from one of these letters.
  THE MARQUESS OF LANSDOWNE: One of which letters? Who signed that letter?
  THE, EARL OF WEMYSS: The letter is signed by Colonel Fludyer, commanding the Home District. I can assure the noble Marquess that it is all right. My noble friend does not appear to like it. Then it was asked whether the instructors were to recruit from the Volunteers, and the answer was that they were not to recruit from their own regiments. A case was brought under my notice where a sergeant who ought to have been on parade was away, having been ordered to go to a district five miles off to recruit for the Army and Militia. When these staff-sergeants were appointed they were appointed for the benefit of the Volunteers, and I wish to give the House only a short and simple statement of facts without comment. In the view of a great military authority—not the Commander-in-Chief—the Volunteers are acting con-
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  trary to discipline in bringing their grievances before Parliament. But to take that view is to ignore the whole principle of Volunteering, which is, that the Volunteers, when not on military duty, retain all their civil rights. I have always held that when Volunteers are no longer on military duty they retain their civil rights, one of which my noble friend tried to take from them by a Bill last year or the year before. I therefore feel quite justified in bringing before the House a matter materially affecting the force with which I have been so long connected, and to which I am proud still to belong.
  THE MARQUESS OF LANSDOWNE: My Lords, I am afraid that what the noble Earl on the cross benches calls a short and simple statement of facts requires a good deal of correction. It is quite evident from the tenor of his speech that he is under the impression that some entirely new departure has been made in regard to the employment of these sergeant-instructors of Volunteers on recruiting.
  THE EARL OF WEMYSS: A departure from the original intention.
  THE MARQUESS OF LANSDOWNE: I think the noble Earl hinted that the change had been made during my administration.
  THE EARL OF WEMYSS: No.
  THE MARQUESS OF LANSDOWNE: I will tell the House what are the present Volunteer regulations on this subject, and I will show how little they differ from the regulations to which the noble Earl has been accustomed for a great many years past. Under the present regulations, dated 1896, it is laid down that the principal duty of an instructor is to attend to the drill and instruction of the corps to which he is posted. That deals with the question of priority of duty, upon which the noble Earl waxed so eloquent. It is also laid down that sergeant-instructors will be required to perform such military duties as may be directed by the district officer commanding; and that every sergeant-instructor is to have it explained to him that he is liable for duties of this kind. The noble Earl thinks this is a recent invention.
  THE EARL OF WEMYSS: Comparatively.
  THE MARQUESS OF LANSDOWNE: I do not know what the noble Earl's idea of a comparatively recent invention may be, but I am sure he recollects the Committee presided over by Sir Patrick MacDougall, who prepared the mobilization scheme when His Royal Highness was in chief command of the Army. That Committee sat in 1872, and it was proposed by the Committee that—
  "The Colonel of any sub-district will superintend and direct ….. the recruiting service for the Line and Militia Battalions of his brigade ….. and for such service he will direct the employment of the officers and N.C.O.'s of the depot ….. as well as of the adjutants and sergeant-instructors of Rifle Volunteers, within the sub-district, as he may see fit."
  That was the recommendation of the MacDougall Committee, and in the following year—1873—general regulations were issued to all officers commanding regimental districts, under which the officer commanding the brigade depôt was to have at his disposal for recruiting purposes, amongst others, the adjutants and sergeant-instructors of Rifle Volunteers. How, with his knowledge of the Volunteer force and its history, the noble Earl can find it possible to say that the idea of employing those instructors in this way never entered into the heads of the War Office passes my comprehension.
  THE EARL OF WEMYSS: I said it never entered into the heads of those who first appointed these instructors.
  THE MARQUESS OF LANSDOWNE: I must remind the noble Lord that the regulations to which he has referred have been in force for more than twenty-five years, and I believe they have never been objected to until to-day by the noble Lord, with all his knowledge of the Volunteer force. Now what are the facts? The Inspector-General of Recruiting observed that in the Home District, or rather a part of the Home District—the London portion of it—there was almost a complete failure of these sergeant-instructors to obtain recruits. The figures are so remarkable that I will state them to your Lordships. In this part of the Home District, there are 135 of these sergeant-instructors, and they produced among them last year the magnificent total of
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  36 recruits. Of these 19 were collected by a single sergeant, so that 17 recruits were gained by 134 sergeants-instructors, whose duty it was, under the Volunteer Regulations, to assist in recruiting. The Inspector-General of Recruiting called, very properly, the attention of the General Officer Commanding the District to this matter, so that inquiries might be made on the subject, and I think a more legitimate course of proceeding could not possibly be followed. In reply to that, the commanding officer stated very clearly and frankly the objections of colonels of Volunteer battalions to having their sergeants employed as recruiters. They said it took them away from their work and made them mix with a class of the population from which the recruits for the Regular Army wore drawn, and a class which it was undesirable they should enter amongst. The Inspector-General of Recruiting replied that if these arguments were to prevail, no recruits could be obtained in any part of the United Kingdom by the members of the permanent staff of the Volunteers, which at present raises every year something like from 4,000 to 6,000 recruits. We certainly are not prepared to forego that source of supply merely because the work of recruiting happens to be a little unpopular with these sergeants in the London District. The General Officer Commanding the Home District was told that if the sergeant-instructors could not succeed in getting a better average than one-eighth of a recruit apiece the Commander-in-Chief would endeavour to find other sergeant-instructors with a greater aptitude for recruiting. The Commander-in-Chief was within his right in giving that warning. I have shown your Lordships that this duty of recruiting has for more than twenty-five years been part of the regular duty of these sergeants; I have shown you that the duty was not adequately performed by the sergeants in the London District; and I must say I think the Inspector-General would have failed in his duty had he not taken notice of this matter. But when I say that, I do not wish for one moment to suggest that we should have any right to take these non-commissioned officers away from the work of the corps to which they are attached, and which, of course, has the first call upon their time. I saw the other day a letter from a well-known colonel of Volunteers, whose language

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  seems to me to very correctly summarise the proper view of this matter. He writes:—
  "In common with every colonel of Volunteers, I am anxious to do, and to allow the Adjutant and permanent staff to do, anything which is possible to popularise the Regular Army, and to obtain recruits for it, consistently with the interest of the unit committed to one's charge."
  That is exactly our point of view, and it seems to me a reasonable one. That is all we ask. We recognise that the principal duty of the permanent staff is with their own corps, but we believe it is compatible with the discharge of that duty that they should help the Regular Army to the best of their ability in obtaining recruits.
  THE DUKE OF NORTHUMBERLAND: My Lords, I had the honour of commanding a Volunteer corps from the year 1866 down to five years ago, and therefore I can remember the state of things which existed before 1872. It is perfectly true that this system of employing non-commissioned officers for recruiting has been in force since the year 1872, but as far as I know it has always been objected to by officers commanding the Volunteers, and what I am saying now applies equally to the Militia. The same policy has been pursued in regard to the Militia, and has been constantly objected to. Although the system dates back to 1872, it was a very different thing then to what it has recently become. The pressure has been gradually greater and greater upon commanding officers to allow their non-commissioned officers of the permanent staff to be employed in recruiting service. Commanding officers find that in order to maintain the efficiency of their corps they require the full time of their non-commissioned officers, and I deprecate, as I have always deprecated, the constant effort of the War Office to try and make one and the same person perform two incompatible duties. It is very cheap; it is no doubt admirable from the recruiting point of view; but it is fatal to the Reserve Forces. If it is the wish of the War Office that either the Militia or the Volunteers should be in a proper state of strength and efficiency, it is, in my judgment, absolutely necessary that they should secure to the command-
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  ing officers of corps the full control of the non-commissioned officers of the permanent staff. It must be admitted, I think, by all who have ever been connected with the Militia or the Volunteers that admirable as no doubt the officers of these corps are, and admirable as is the material of which the private is made, the weak point in them is the Volunteer noncommissioned officer. It is not, I think, his own fault altogether. It is largely owing to the circumstances of the case; but to whatever it may be due, every commanding officer to whom I have spoken has experienced difficulty in coping with Volunteer non-commissioned officers. Therefore it is doubly important that he should have a good and efficient permanent staff under his control. It is upon them he must rely to a very great extent for the efficiency of his battalion. The noble Marquess the Secretary of State for War said it was hardly to be expected that the War Office should modify its regulations because recruiting happened to be unpopular with these officers. But he must remember that if you make the Volunteer or the Militia Service unpopular with the non-commissioned officers of the Army, you will not get the best men for the position, and great difficulty is experienced now in getting the best men from the regiment to join the staffs of the Militia and Volunteers. It has long been my opinion that both the Militia and Volunteer Forces have suffered very severely from this cheese-paring policy of trying to get recruiting service out of men who are really employed, or ought to be employed, on a totally different service, and thereby crippling the efficiency, of the noncommissioned officer, and complicating the whole system. I believe nothing can be done which would more improve the Militia and Volunteer Forces than a reversal of this system.
  THE EARL OF WEMYSS: We have got from my noble friend, the Secretary of State for War, at any rate a clear expression of opinion that recruiting is a secondary duty. However, I think we ought to show some consideration to my noble friend in this matter, because the War Office are at their wits' end to get men. I find that a boy of 13 enlisted six times in six regiments and is counted in the Estimates as six men.

PROPOSED PACIFIC CABLE.
THE EARL OF ABERDEEN (Viscount GORDON): My Lords, I rise to ask Her Majesty's Government whether, in view of the importance of an understanding being arrived at between Her Majesty's Government and the Governments of Canada and of the Australian Colonies, with reference to the proposed Pacific cable, Her Majesty's Government will be disposed to reconsider some of the stipulations recently set forth by them in relation to the scheme. My question is expressed in a somewhat guarded and condensed manner, and therefore I hope your Lordships will not consider it out of place if I add just a word or two by way of explanation. Your Lordships will have observed that in the year 1896 a Committee was appointed to consider the question of the Pacific Cable. It was a very strong and representative Committee, as its constitution shows, and anyone reading the Report will at once see that the members of the Committee were entirely in favour of carrying out the Pacific Cable. Various recommendations are, of course, given as to the methods to be adopted, but the Committee are favourable to the proposal. On August 29, 1898, the Premiers of New South Wales, Victoria, and Queensland agreed that if Great Britain and Canada paid five-ninths and New Zealand one-ninth, New South Wales, Queensland, and Victoria would contribute one-ninth each. New Zealand practically complied with that proposal in giving their one-ninth. In December, 1898, the following message was received from Canada approving of the proposal alluded to in the Australian telegram:—
"Am authorised to inform Mr. Chamberlain that the Canadian Government will gladly join Imperial Government in contributing each a half of five-ninths for Pacific cable provided Australian Colonies contribute remaining four-ninths."
In consequence of these communications, a letter was sent to the Agents-General for the Australian Colonies and the High Commissioner for Canada by the Colonial Office. This is an exceedingly important letter. It gives the views of Her Majesty's Government upon the Pacific cable, and states what they are prepared to do; but I should like to remark that before this authorised statement appeared there was an announcement, which had all the appearance of being authentic, which
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stated that Her Majesty's Government had decided to do something considerably more than they really had decided to do, and this more favourable announcement was greeted with unanimous approval not only by the Colonies concerned but by the British Press generally. In the letter to which I have referred it is stated that, in the opinion of Her Majesty's Government, the construction of a Pacific cable was a matter of much greater importance to Australia and Canada than to the United Kingdom, but it also remarked that the success of the project cannot fail to promote Imperial unity. I venture to submit that anything which supports Imperial unity is of very practical consequence, though in an indirect sense perhaps, to the central portion of the Empire. Moreover, there is no allusion in this letter to another important feature of the cable—namely, that it would provide an all-British line of telegraphic communication. I think the significance and importance of that, from a strategical point of view, is obvious. Canada and the other Colonies have often been exhorted to do their part in contributing to the defence of the Empire, and so forth. I think the active part they propose to take in this cable is an indirect contribution to what will be of great value in military organisation. Then we come to the conditions upon which a certain measure of support will be given by Her Majesty's Government. The letter states that the Government are prepared to offer
"For a period not exceeding 20 years, an annual subsidy not exceeding a maximum limit of £20,000 in any one year."
There are several other conditions, and the feeling on the part of Canada and of the Australian Colonies, so far as I have been able to ascertain it, is that these conditions are extremely stringent, and consequently have created great disappointment. Another condition of the Government's contribution is that the cable must be in accordance with specification, and samples to be approved by the Treasury, and to the satisfaction, and so forth, of the Treasury, and to be effectually worked with a sufficient staff who must be British subjects. The condition as to the employment of British subjects is an indirect indication that Her Majesty's Government do recognise the importance of a British cable under absolutely British control. But the point is that it is difficult for Canada and the

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Australian Colonies to estimate what they would be liable for under this stipulation. Your Lordships know that the cost of the cable will largely depend on the number of words which it is to be capable of conveying per minute, and obviously it is very desirable to have a cable capable of rapid transmission; but, at the same time, if Her Majesty's Government lay so much stress on the efficiency of the cable in that respect, one would think they might give further encouragement to secure that the cable should be of the highest possible efficiency. There are several other conditions which seem to me extremely severe. For instance, the Government insists that all rates charged to the general public shall be approved by the Treasury. At first sight that might seem for the protection of the public, but when we think of the delicate questions in regard to possible competition I am afraid this clause might have a hampering effect, and perhaps make it more difficult for the Governments concerned to raise such loans as they might wish to raise for the purpose of carrying out this project. We all know the damaging effect of too many restrictions being imposed upon the contribution contemplated by the Government. I am afraid that an impression may be created that Her Majesty's Government do not regard the project with that confidence which we had hoped for, and that therefore it may not be carried out with such facility as is desirable. The principle of giving some contribution having been contemplated, I cannot help thinking that it would be a perfectly safe and reasonable course for the Government to have gone a little further, not merely as to the amount, but as the manner in which their aid is offered. It is well known that the feeling of Canada and of the Australian Colonics towards the Mother Country is of an excellent character, and it would be a great pity if anything were done which would check their confident expectations regarding the readiness of the Government to meet them at least half way in such an undertaking as this, which is obviously either directly or indirectly for the benefit of the Empire at large. The attitude of Her Majesty's Government, hitherto as expressed through the Colonial Office and the Secretary of State for the Colonies, has been eminently one to encourage and foster the desirable state of
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feeling to which I have alluded, and I hope it may be possible for Her Majesty's Government to still further strengthen the ties between the Colonies and ourselves, and help forward this great scheme by relaxing something of the stringency of the conditions upon which the subsidy is offered.
THE UNDER SECRETARY OF STATE FOR THE COLONIES (the Earl of SELBORNE): My Lords, the noble Earl has criticised the letter announcing the decision of Her Majesty's Government upon this subject, but I assure him that there was no intention in the letter either of throwing cold water on a project of such great public interest, or of conveying the decision in a manner which would seem to be ungracious. Government departments are constantly striving to formulate their proposals in letters which shall not appear to be ungracious, but I am aware that they are constantly finding that they fail in that attempt. The point raised has been a good deal discussed in the Press, and, somewhat to my surprise, particular stress has been laid on that paragraph of the letter which states that the construction of this cable is a matter of greater importance to Australia and Canada than to the United Kingdom. Now, my Lords, surely the two proposals are not incompatible. It may be perfectly true at one and the same time that a project such as this may be of great general interest to the Empire, and also that it may have greater importance to specific portions of the Empire. I think that what was meant to be expressed in this paragraph states no more than the fact. It is open to anyone who reads this letter to form his own opinion as to whether the particular form of proposal which the Government have made is the best or not in the circumstances, but I do not think that anyone who really understands the proposal in its financial aspect can say that it is ungenerous, because it is nothing more or less than an offer to bear the full share of the annual burden which has been suggested as appropriate by the colonies concerned, and at the same time not to demand any share in any profits that may arise. That may or may not be the best attitude to adopt, but whatever opinion may be formed in that respect I do not think it can be criticised as an ungenerous offer. The maximum of £20,000 seems, according to the evidence

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adduced before the Committee, to be the highest possible sum, on the proportion of five-eighteenths, that could ever fall upon the Government of this country to bear. The noble Lord has animadverted on what he has described as the stringency and severity of the conditions. I speak with deference in the presence of my noble friend opposite, who was once Parliamentary Secretary to the Treasury, but those conditions are only of the kind which the Treasury make it a rule to impose whenever this country bears a share in any project such as this one of the Pacific cable. I do not know whether the details are identical with the details of similar conditions which have been imposed when this country has subsidised a cable, we will say, of the Eastern Telegraph Company, but I do not think they will be found in any way to differ in principle. There is no ulterior motive lurking underneath them. They are merely those which the experience of the Post Office and the Treasury has shown it is prudent to insist upon as the most likely to conduce to efficiency of the work and the satisfactory maintenance of the service. But if, as would appear, the Australasian and Canadian Governments have any objection to urge on any ground to the exact form in which this proposal has been made, Her Majesty's Government are perfectly prepared to review the whole matter in the light of those representations, with a sincere desire, if possible, to arrive at a decision which will be mutually satisfactory to all the Governments concerned.
LORD TWEEDMOUTH: My Lords, I am very glad to hear the closing words of the noble Earl, for at any rate we have the assurance that this arrangement is open to revision, and that the door is not finally closed. But I am sorry the noble Earl has taken as the sort of keynote of his speech to-night the last paragraph of the letter, which says that Her Majesty's Government trust that the liberal arrangement proposed will meet the views of the Colonies. This arrangement may be a sufficient one; as to that, I say nothing; but I do not think it can rightly be called a liberal one. The noble Earl rather challenged me with regard to the financial aspect of this question. What was the proposal made by the Colonies to the Mother Country? It was that the Australian Colonies and New Zealand
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should bear four-ninths of the cost of the construction of the Pacific cable, provided that Canada and the Mother Country bore the other five-ninths. Canada said she was ready to bear her part—five-eighteenths—if the Mother Country would bear her part—the other five-eighteenths. Five-eighteenths of a million and a-half amount to £417,000 in round figures. That is what the Mother Country was asked to bear. Now, what is the "liberal offer" that was made by Her Majesty's Government to the Colonies? Not that they would bear five-eighteenths of the cost of this cable, or even of the cost of working this cable, but that they would bear five-eighteenths of any deficit that might occur from year to year for 20 years up to a sum of £20,000. Before the Mother Country would be called upon to pay its five-eighteenths —to pay £20,000 in any single year— the total deficit on the working of this cable would have had to amount to £70,000. Therefore the risk the Mother Country was taking for the next 20 years was not a large one, for we expect the cable will prove a profitable concern. Then the noble Earl said the Mother Country was very generous because it gave up all claim to any part of the profit. Naturally it would if it did not provide any of the money on which the scheme is to be carried out, but by a clause in these provisions it is laid down that the messages of the Imperial Government are to be transmitted in priority to all other messages, at rates not exceeding half the charge made to the general public. To begin with, the Mother Country insists on reducing the profits in respect of the cable, which seems to me commanding a very considerable concession on the part of the Colonies, and I cannot say I am surprised that they consider these conditions by no means satisfactory. I quite agree with my noble friend that these are the conditions that are ordinarily imposed by the Treasury in the case of any enterprise in which they take a part. That is exactly the point. It looks as if these conditions had been framed when the intention of the Mother Country was to take part in the construction of the cable, and pay its portion towards the capital cost, but I do think these conditions are extremely stringent and unfair to the Colonies if all we are to do is to provide, in the event of a deficit, a certain proportion of that deficit.

INFECTIOUS DISEASE (NOTIFICATION) ACT (1889) EXTENSION BILL.
House in Committee (according to order): Bill reported without Amendment: and re-committed to the Standing Committee.
PUBLIC LIBRARIES (SCOTLAND) ACTS AMENDMENT BILL.
House in Committee (according to order): Bill reported without Amendment; and re-committed to the Standing Committee.
LICENSING (DISQUALIFICATION OF JUSTICES REMOVAL) BILL [Lords].
House in Committee (according to order): Bill reported without Amendment; and re-committed to the Standing Committee.

BOARD OF EDUCATION BILL [Lords].
Read 3a (according to order): Amendments made; Bill passed, and sent to the Commons.
House adjourned at twenty minutes before Six of the clock, till Tomorrow, half-past Ten of the clock.