Lords Sitting of 12 May 1899

PRIVATE BILL BUSINESS

  JONESS DIVORCE BILL. [Lords.]
  A witness ordered to attend.
  Petition of Charlotte Jane Jones, of St. Helen's, Dalkey, in the County of Dublin, that substituted service of a copy of the Bill be made upon Robert Colvill Jones and Ffolliot Jones, cousins of Robert Colvill Jones, the husband of the said Charlotte Jane Jones; and that the depositions of A. M. Harry, Jagesvari alias Bigili, and Anupa, taken on commission in India in pursuance of Orders of the Queen's Bench Matrimonial Division of the High Court of Justice in Ireland dated the 16th of January, 1889, and the 29th of March, 1899, be received in evidence on the Second Reading of the Bill, or that in the alternative the examination of the said A. M. Hurry, Jagesvari alias Bigili, and Anupa, touching the allegations mentioned in the petition, be taken in India, and that a proper warrant or warrants be issued for that purpose; considered (according to order): Counsel called in: A Witness examined: Bill to be read 2 on Tuesday next: The usual orders made: Ordered, that service of a copy of the Bill, and of the Order for the Second Reading thereof, upon the said Robert Colvill Jones and Ffolliot Jones, be deemed as good service of the said Bill and Order as if the same had been personally served upon the said Robert Colville Jones, the husband of the said Charlotte Jane Jones: Ordered, that the said depositions of A. M. Harry, Jagesvari alias Bigili, and Anupa, be received in evidence on the Second Reading of the Bill.
  THE LORD CHANCELLOR THE LORD CHANCELLOR acquainted the House that the Clerk of the Parliaments had laid upon the Table the Certificates from the Examiners that the further Standing Orders applicable to the following Bills have been complied with:—

  TAFF VALE RAILWAY.

  LISBURN TOWN COMMISSIONERS.

  SCUNTHORPE URBAN DISTRICT GAS AND WATER.

  And also the Certificates that the Standing Orders applicable to the following Bills have been complied with—

EDUCATION DEPARTMENT PROVISIONAL ORDER CONFIRMATION (LONDON). [Lords.]
  EDUCATION DEPARTMENT PROVISIONAL ORDER CONFIRMATION (LIVERPOOL). [Lords.]
  The same were ordered to lie on the Table.
SALFORD CORPORATION BILL. [Lords.]
The Queen's Consent signified; and Bill reported from the Select Committee with Amendments.
ALL SAINTS CHURCH (CARDIFF) BILL. [Lords.]
Reported with Amendments.
NUNEATON AND CHILVERS COTON URBAN DISTRICT COUNCIL WATER BILL.
Reported with Amendments.
VALE OF GLAMORGAN RAILWAY BILL.
Reported without Amendment.
WOODHOUSE AND CONISBROUGH RAILWAY (ABANDONMENT) BILL.
Reported with an Amendment.
PORT TALBOT RAILWAY AND DOCKS BILL. [Lords.]
Reported with Amendments.
COLONIAL AND FOREIGN BANKS GUARANTEE FUND BILL. [Lords.]
Committee to meet on Monday next.
BRIGHTON MARINE PALACE AND PIER BILL. [Lords.]
Committee to meet on Monday next.
TENTERDEN RAILWAY BILL
Committee to meet on Monday next.
FURNESS RAILWAY BILL. [Lords.]
Committee to meet on Monday next.
STRETFORD GAS BILL. [Lords.]
Committee to meet on Monday next.
BRIGG URBAN DISTRICT GAS BILL.
Committee to meet on Monday next.
GREAT NORTHERN AND STRAND RAILWAY BILL.
Read 2a and committed; the Committee to be proposed by the Committee of Selection.
LONDON, BRIGHTON, AND SOUTH COAST RAILWAY (PENSIONS) BILL.
Read 2a, and committed.
SHOTLEY BRIDGE AND CONSETT DISTRICT GAS BILL.
Read 2a, and committed.
WISHAW WATER BILL. [Lords.]
Read 3a, and passed, and sent to the Commons.
HAMPSTEAD CHURCH (EMMANUEL, WEST END) BILL. [Lords].
Read 3a, and passed, and sent to the Commons.
GAINSBOROUGH URBAN DTSTRICT COUNCIL (GAS) BILL. [Lords.]
Read 3a, and passed, and sent to the Commons.
GREAT YARMOUTH WATER BILL. [Lords.]
Read 3a and passed, and sent to the Commons.
LEIGH-ON-SEA URBAN DISTRICT COUNCIL BILL. [Lords.]
Read 3a, Amendments made, Bill passed, and sent to the Commons.
DUNDEE GAS, TRAMWAYS, AND EXTENSION BILL. [Lords.] Now DUNDEE GAS, STREET IMPROVEMENTS, AND TRAMWAYS BILL. [Lords.]
Read 3a, and passed, and sent to the Commons.
HORSFORTH URBAN DISTRICT COUNCIL WATER BILL.
Read 3a, with the Amendments, and passed, and returned to the Commons.
AYR BURGH BILL.
Brought from the Commons; read 1a; and referred to the Examiners.
GAS LIGHT AND COKE COMPANY BILL.
Brought from the Commons; read 1a; and referred to the Examiners.
GREAT CENTRAL RAILWAY BILL.
Brought from the Commons; read 1a; and referred to the Examiners.
KENSINGTON AND NOTTTNG HILL ELECTRIC LIGHTING BILL.
Brought from the Commons; read 1a and referred to the Examiners.
SOUTH-EASTERN AND LONDON, CHATHAM, AND DOVER RAILWAY COMPANIES BILL.
Brought from the Commons; read 1a; and referred to the Examiners.
SOUTH-EASTERN RAILWAY BILL.
Brought from the Commons; read 1a; and referred to the Examiners.
DUBLIN IMPROVEMENT (BULL ALLEY AREA) BILL.
Returned from the Commons with the Amendments agreed to.
BRISTOL FLOODS PREVENTION BILL. [Lords.]
Returned from the Commons agreed to, with Amendments: The said Amendments considered, and agreed to.
PERTH WATER, POLICE, AND GAS BILL. [Lords.]
Returned from the Commons agreed to, with an Amendment: The said amendment considered, and agreed to.
LOUGHBOROUGH CORPORATION BILL. [Lords.]
Reported from the Select Committee with Amendments.
SOUTH ESSEX WATER BILL. [Lords.]
Report from the Select Committee, That it is not expedient to proceed further with the Bill.
CALEDONIAN RAILWAY (GENERAL POWERS) BILL. [Lords.]
Report from the Select Committee, That the Committee had not proceeded with the consideration of the Bill, the opposition thereto having been withdrawn; read, and ordered to lie on the Table: The orders made on the 6th and 24th of March last discharged; and Bill committed.
ROCHDALE CANAL BILL. [Lords.]
Report from the Select Committee, That the Committee had not proceeded with the consideration of the Bill, no parties having appeared in opposition thereto; read, and ordered to lie on the Table: The orders made on the 2nd of March and Friday last discharged; and Bill committed.

MARYPORT HARBOUR BILL. [Lords.]
The orders made on the 2nd instant

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and Tuesday last, appointing certain Lords the Select Committee to consider the Bill, discharged.

NORTH-EASTERN RAILWAY BILL. [Lords.]
Report from the Committee of Selection, That the Lord Ventry be proposed to the House as a member of the Select Committee in the place of the Lord Wrottesley; read, and agreed to.
EDUCATION DEPARTMENT PROVISIONAL ORDER CONFIRMATION (LONDON) BILL. [Lords.]
To be read 2a on Monday next.
EDUCATION DEPARTMENT PROVISIONAL ORDER CONFIRMATION (LIVERPOOL) BILL. [Lords.]
To be read 2a on Monday next.
ELECTRIC LIGHTING PROVISIONAL ORDER (No. 9) BILL. [Lords.]
Read 2a (according to order).
PILOTAGE PROVISIONAL ORDER BILL.
Read 2a (according to order), and committed: The Committee to be proposed by the Committee of Selection.
METROPOLITAN COMMON SCHEME (HARROW WEALD) PROVISIONAL ORDER BILL.
Brought from the Commons; read 1a; to be printed; and referred to the Examiners. (No. 89.)
RETURNS, REPORTS, ETC.
  EDUCATION (SCOTLAND).
  General Report by the Chief Inspector of the Southern Division of Scotland, for the year 1898.

TRADE REPORTS.
I. Annual Series:
No. 2255. Russia (Odessa).
No. 2256. United States (New York).
No. 2257. United States (Galveston).
No. 2251. China (Shashih).
II. Miscellaneous Series:
No. 503. Commercial education in Italy.

PRISONS (TREATMENT OF DEBTOR PRISONERS UNDER NEW RULES).
Circular, dated 25th April, 1899, addressed to Judges of County Courts, by direction of the Secretary of State for the Home Department, calling attention to the changes made by the rules under Section 6 (3) of the Prison Act, 1898, with regard to the treatment of debtor prisoners.
PRISON ACT, 1898.
Circular, dated 25th April, 1899, addressed to the Chairman of each Bench of Magistrates, calling attention to the Prison Act, 1898, and the rules made under it.
NAVY (HYDROGRAPHER'S REPORT).
Report on Admiralty Surveys, for the year 1898, by the Hydrographer.
TRADE.
Annual Statement of Trade of United Kingdom with Foreign Countries and British Possessions for 1898, compared with the four preceding years.

SOUTH AMERICA (COMMERCIAL MISSION).
Reports received from Mr. T. Worthington, the Special Commissioner appointed by the Board of Trade to inquire into and report upon the conditions and prospects of British trade in certain South American countries. Sixth Report.— Uruguay.
Presented [by command], and ordered to lie on the Table.

INDIA.
I. Estimate of revenue and expenditure of the Government of India, for the year 1898–99, compared with the results of 1897–98.

II. Finance and revenue accounts of the Government of India, for the year 1897–98.

III. Home accounts of the Government of India.

GREENWICH HOSPITAL AND TRAVERS' FOUNDATION.
Statement of the estimated income and expenditure of Greenwich Hospital and of Travers' Foundation for 1899–1900.

SUPERANNUATION.
Treasury Minute, dated 2nd May 1899, declaring that Thomas Benson, chief mate,

435
Revenue cruiser, "Vigilant," in the service of the Commissioners of Customs, was appointed without a Civil Service certificate through inadvertance on the part of the head of his Department.

IMPERIAL DEFENCE.
Account of all moneys issued from the Consolidated Fund, of sums borrowed, and of transactions in relation to sums so borrowed, up to 31st March 1899, in pursuance of the Imperial Defence Act, 1888.

NATIONAL SCHOOL TEACHERS (IRELAND) PENSIONS FUND.
Annual accounts of receipts and payments for the period to 31st December, 1898.
Laid before the House (pursuant to Act) and ordered to lie on the Table.

METROPOLITAN WATER COMPANIES BILL.
House to be in Committee on Tuesday next.
CONGESTED DISTRICTS (SCOTLAND) ACT AMENDMENT BILL [Lords].
A Bill to amend the Congested Districts (Scotland) Act, 1897, was presented by the Lord Balfour; read 1a; and to be printed. (No. 88.)
ANCHORS AND CHAIN CABLES BILL.
To be read 2a on Monday next: (The Earl of Dudley).
PUBLIC LIBRARIES (SCOTLAND) ACTS AMENDMENT BILL.
Read 2a (according to order), and committed to a Committee of the whole House on Monday next.
SOLICITORS BILL [Lords].
Returned from the Committee agreed to, with Amendments: The said Amendments to be printed. (No. 87.)
ALLOTMENTS (LONDON) BILL [Lords].

  SECOND READING.
  Order of the Day for the Second Reading, read.
  EARL CARRINGTON: The Bill which I move shall be read a second time is identically the same as that which I
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  brought in last year, and which was then thrown out by a majority of 87 to 25. I need hardly detain the House by going into the merits of the Bill again. I need only say that we have 14,000 acres of land which is fit for cultivation in the County of London, and which could be profitably cultivated. Under the present conditions, as we are unable to let anything under an acre, under the Small Holdings Act of 1892, we are at a great disadvantage. We are obliged to let an acre, which is afterwards sub-let, which is a great evil, and prevents us letting the land as we wish to do. Your Lordships are aware that the Land Acts of 1887 and 1890 do not apply to the County of London, and if the House would be good enough to give the power to do so, we could, I think, double the number of our allotments. I do not think that I am asking a great favour on behalf of the County Council when I ask that this power should be given, because I must remind the House that the County Council have been able to carry through the Blaekwall Tunnel (without the loss of a single life); have added 1,000 acres to the public parks, re-organised and re-equipped the Fire Brigade, and added to the number of the Brigade 400 men, which is an amount equal to a regiment of Life Guards; have taken over the tramways and reduced the hours, and increased the wages of the men; have cleared the sewage out of the Thames so that fish come 20 miles further up stream than they did before; and are going to make our tunnel at Rotherhithe; and will soon commence the improvement of the great street between Holborn and the Strand. All this has been done at no great expense to the ratepayers, because the rate has been reduced by one halfpenny this year. I submit, therefore, to the House, that the County Council are not asking for a duty to be imposed upon them which they cannot perform, and I ask this House to allow us to let to a solvent and industrious artisan one-tenth of an acre of land instead of restricting us to letting not less than one acre. I beg to move the Second Reading of this Bill.
  Moved—
  "That the Bill be now read 2a."
  THE EARL OF ONSLOW: I do not desire to interpose between the House and

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  the noble Lord who represents the Local Government Board, but as I am Chairman of the Allotments Committee of the County Council, I might say I was rather surprised to hear the noble Earl hang on to this measure an enumeration of all the great deeds which the County Council have done, which have nothing to do with this Bill. The object which the noble Earl has in view is a very simple one. The County Council have no power to let less than one acre, and if they wish to let allotments of under one acre they are obliged to avail themselves of the services of a middleman. In order to achieve that end, the noble Earl brings in a Bill of five pages and sixteen clauses, and it seems to me it would have been extremely easy for the noble Earl simply to ask the House to give power to the London County Council to allot less than one acre of land. I think it is rather straining the patience of this House to bring in this Bill in order to derive such a small gain. I think the noble Earl could hardly expect to be able to pass such a long and elaborate Bill for such a simple purpose.
  LORD HARRIS: The noble Earl has deduced no further arguments on this occasion than he did last year when he attempted to pass a similar Bill. I am able to adduce a further strong argument in favour of our rejecting the Bill, but before I do so I may remind the House of the argument I put before it last year. It is entirely erroneous to suppose that the allotments are in the neighbourhood of the urban part of London. The 14,000 acres are, I imagine, in the outskirts of the County Council area, and in these outskirts it is quite possible and easy, if there is land available, and if the local authorities find there is a demand and they are determined to meet it, to arrange it. Requests have been received from Greenwich and Charlton that the powers of parish councils shall be given to them for the purposes of opening up land for allotment. The only vestries that have applied have been given those powers; and, as far as we know, in the only parishes where allotments are required they are granted under this process. It is a perfectly simple process, and there is no necessity for bringing in such a body as the County Council to deal with the matter. It is advantageous in another way. If the County Council are given these powers the costs will be
  438
  upon the ratepayers of London who have no interest in the matter whatever, instead of the ratepayers of the parishes that are concerned. Then I beg to remind this House that the powers which the noble Earl now asks for have been given to no county council of England; and yet, though the London County Council is distinct and different in many ways from the other county councils of the country, the noble Earl asks you to give a power to them which you have refused to every other county council in England. The last argument which I would venture to point out to your Lordships against your approving this measure is that the London Government Bill is now before Parliament, and under that Bill new areas are being created and new authorities are being created for their government, and it might be possible, if Parliament pleased, to confer on any of these authorities the powers suggested. If the County Council is in earnest in this matter it is quite possible for them to procure that these powers shall vest in the new local authorities by getting an Amendment proposed to that effect to the Bill now occupying attention in another place.
  THE EARL OF KIMBERLEY: I fully expected that the noble Lord would oppose this measure. That opposition arises out of the incredible jealousy which exists against the County Council of London on the part of the Government. Is it, or is it not, desirable for London that there should be these facilities for getting these allotments? It could do no harm and it certainly might do some good. The noble Lord has told us that any parishes could apply to the Local Government Board for these powers, but as a matter of fact none have ever done so. The whole question is, whether or not we think it is desirable that there should be a convenient and specified mode of giving these allotments where they would be welcome. So far as I can see the noble Lord has given us no arguments of any kind or description against the Bill, and I think the opposition is the most uncalled-for and the most mischievous.
  LORD TWEEDMOUTH: The noble Earl has urged as a reason for objecting to this Bill that it is long and complicated and that the object which is sought to be achieved by it could be effected by

  439
  a short Bill. On that ground I can claim the noble Earl as a supporter of this Bill, and I have every right to do so, because he was the Chairman of the Allotments Committee of the County Council and as Chairman of that Committee he has given his assent to this very Bill. The Bill was recommended to the Council by a Committee of which the noble Earl was Chairman.
  THE EARL OF ONSLOW: No, that was before I was Chairman.
  LORD TWEEDMOUTH: So far as I understand he has made no protest whatever against the Bill, and I contend that he is bound and wrapped up in the Bill that is now before us. Lord Harris has said that he cannot consent to this Bill because the powers it proposes to give to the London County Council are given to no others.
  LORD HARRIS: I said the powers had been given to no other county council in England and therefore should not be given to the London County Council.
  LORD TWEEDMOUTH: That is true, but other County Councils have powers which the London County Council has not. They have a power over the parishes which enables them, if the parish fails, to deal with the matter—to step over them and deal with it themselves. Should not the same power be given to the London County Council? If these new bodies which are going to be created are not willing to deal with this question of allotments, is it not fair that the London County Council should step in, as the other County Councils step in, and deal with the matter? Another argument I would venture to use as to why it is desirable to give these powers to the London County Council is, that there are constantly large plots of land falling into the hands of county councils which have to be dealt with from time to time. It seems to me that one of the best uses to which these pieces of land could be put would be to let them out in allotments. I shall certainly vote for the Second Reading of this Bill.
  On Question, resolved in the negative:— Contents, 16; Not-contents, 58.

  CONTENTS.

  Carrington, E. [Teller]

  Burghelere, L.

  Chesterfield, E. [Teller]

  Davey, L.

  Dundonald, E.

  Hawkesbury, L.

  Kimberley, E.

  Herries, L.

  Spencer, E.

  Leigh, L.

  Reay, L.

  Hampden, V.

  Ribblesdale, L.

  Stuart of Castle Stuart,

  Boyle, L. (E. Cork and Orrery)

  L. (E. Moray)

  Tweedmouth, L.

  NOT-CONTENTS.

  Halsbury, E. (Lord Chancellor)

  Aldenham, L.

  Balfour, L.

  Devonshire, D. (Lord President)

  Belper, L.

  Brougham and Vaux,L.

  Cross, V. (Lord Privy Seal)

  Calthorpe, L.

  Churchill, L. [Teller]

  Marlborough, D.

  Cranworth, L.

  Northumberland, D.

  Crawshaw, L.

  Digby, L.

  Lansdowne, M.

  Farquhar, L.

  Salisbury, M.

  Fermanagh, L. (E.Erne)

  Pembroke and Montgomer, E. Lord Steward)

  Gage, L. (V. Gage)

  Harris, L.

  James, L.

  Bradford. E.

  Kenry, L. (E. Dunraven and Mount-Earl)

  Brownlow, E.

  Camperdown, E.

  Dartmouth, E.

  Ker, L. (M. Lothian)

  Dartrey, E.

  Lawrence, L.

  de Montalt, E.

  Manners of Haddon, L. (M. Granby)

  Ducie, E.

  Mansfield, E.

  Mount Stephen, L.

  Mount Edgeumbe, E.

  Mowbray, L.

  Onslow, E.

  Napier, L.

  Romney, E.

  Norton, L.

  Rosse, E.

  Penrhyn, L.

  Stanhope, E.

  Rowton L.

  Waldegrave, E. [Teller]

  St. Levan, L.

  Yarborough, E.

  Shand, L.

  Stewart of Garlies, L. (E. Galloway)

  Falkland, V.

  Knutsford, V.

  Sudley, L. (E. Arran)

  Powerscourt, V.

  Templemore, L.

  Ventry, L.

  Hopetoun, L. (E. Hopetoun) (L.Chamberlain)

  Wemyss, L. (E. Wemyss)

BOARD OF EDUCATION BILL.
Amendments reported (according to Order).
THE ARCHBISHOP OF CANTERBURY: I propose to add certain words at the end of Clause 2. The Charitable Trusts Act of 1860 gives very large powers indeed to the Charity Commissioners in dealing with schools of less annual value than,£50. In Clause 2 and Clause 4 of this Bill they are practically without any kind of control, and they deal with these matters according to the tradition of their own office, exercising vague powers which belonged at one time

441
to the Court of Chancery. They are now unrestrained in whatever they do. They are not empowered to put any scheme before either House of Parliament, and in fact they are almost autocratic. I do not think it does not work well, but I think it is a little risky to give such powers to a political office such as the Hoard of Education must necessarily be. The Charity Commissioners deal with all such cases according to well-established precedents, and I really cannot say that I think we have a right to complain of what they have done in this matter. But I think that there will be a serious risk that there will be a great deal of interference with these small endowments under this new system. I have no doubt that there will be very great pressure for money. I can see that the Government are very anxious to make a great system of secondary education and to do it cheaply, but they will find in certain cases that they cannot do it very cheaply. Money will be required, and nothing will be more natural than to seize upon all these small endowments, oven where they are at present used for elementary education and belonging to the elementary schools. The trusts in many cases have no such division as will clearly ear-mark them for elementary education, and it will be so arranged that money will be wanted to provide cheaper education in elementary schools. To provide for the removal of the children to the secondary, and later on from the secondary to the still higher schools, a considerable sum of money will be wanted, and I think there will be great pressure; brought to take this money from the schools that now possess it and to assign it to such purposes as I suggest. A political body is not quite the same thing as the Charity Commissioners in dealing with such cases. The Charity Commissioners do act with certain definite traditions, and I do not think a political body will always feel itself bound to act in the same way. I think, further, that it will lie very frequently argued that a better provision is made for the elementary schools, because they can come upon the rates. That they may be put under the School Board and come under the rates, and will not want the money, and that that being so, there is no reason why this money cannot be seized upon and used for the purposes of secondary education. If that had been proposed twenty-five years ago, at
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which time the first real movement was made towards looking to secondary education, there would have been much more reason than now, because at this time a great many of what I may call vested interests have grown up. In the meanwhile, we have been wasting all this time in dealing with secondary education. A good many of these small endowments are used with good effect for elementary education, and I think it would certainly be a mistake to take them away suddenly or uselessly—take them away from the purposes for which they are being used at present. I therefore propose the Amendment, and so tar as the form of it is concerned, I believe the noble Duke who has charge of the Bill does not object to it. But I cannot, feel quite sure that he will not object to having any Amendment whatever. I do not intend to divide the House upon the subject, because I feel very strongly that the need of secondary education is so great that anything that would run the risk of delaying the passing of this measure would do harm to the country. I am not prepared to take the responsibility of taking any step which might lead to such a thing as that. But I think the matter well worthy of the consideration of your Lordships and the noble Duke who has charge of this measure, and if he cannot accept my Amendment, your Lordships will see that I am not proposing anything unreasonable in the Amendment I have the honour to move. The proposal comes to this—that the small endowments could be put under the same kind of control as the larger endowments are, under the Endowed Schools Acts. I want to propose that they shall be dealt with by a scheme which shall be under the control of either House of Parliament, and if that is so we shall know where we are, and it will enable us to hold the account, and will enable the legislature of each House to see that there is something like careful consideration given to every case of this kind. I grant at once that I should have great confidence in many of the precedents of new bodies and believe that they would do the light thing, but I confess that it may possibly be that at some day we should get a wrong thing done, for which we should afterwards be extremely sorry. I therefore submit this Amendment to the House for its consideration, and I do not think it is without its importance.
Amendment moved—
"In Clause 2, page 2, at end, to insert 'and that any proposal by the Board of Education to alter the purposes of an educational endowment of less than fifty pounds a year shall be subject to the provisions with respect to schemes contained in Sections 33 to 36 and 42 and 43 of the Endowed Schools Act, 1869, and Section 15 of the Endowed Schools Act, 1873.'"—(The Archbishop of Canterbury.)
THE LORD PRESIDENT OF THE COUNCIL (The DUKE of DEVONSHIRE): I am very far from saying that the Amendment suggested by the most reverend Prelate is an unreasonable one, but I hope that your Lordships will allow mo to state the reasons why I cannot accept it. This Bill does not propose to deal in any way with the amendment either of the Charitable Trusts Act or the Endowed Schools Act. All it does is to substitute one administrative authority, the Board of Education, for another administrative authority, that is, the Charity Commissioners, in administering the existing law. Both the Charitable Trusts Act and the Endowed Schools Act deal with a great number of very delicate and difficult questions affecting interests both of a local and religious character, and, in our opinion, it would be a very disastrous proceeding, by any such proposal as that contained in the Amendment, to open the door to what might become in the other House of Parliament, if not m this, a very extensive review and revision of both those Act. I am aware with regard to what I say that there is a noble and learned Lord opposite who has had his attention called to this question, who would be prepared, if your Lordships adopt any such Amendment as that which has been put on the Paper by the most reverend Prelate, to call attention to other anomalies in the Charitable Trusts and Endowed Schools Acts, which it would be difficult to resist if you once went into a review of the Acts themselves. The object of the present Amendment, as the most reverend Prelate has explained, is to protect the smaller endowments, which in many cases are now applied to the purposes of elementary education, from being diverted to the purposes of secondary education, and it implies that the restrictions which the legislature has not considered it necessary to impose upon the action of the Charity Commissioners ought to be imposed upon the action of the Education Board. I have endeavoured to point out
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on the discussion of the Second Reading of the Bill why I think the pronouncements of the most reverend Prelate are not altogether well founded, and also how the powers of the Charity Commissioners, which are to be transferred to the Education Board, are not exercised so much without restraint as the most reverend Prelate seems to suppose. I will not enter now into details, but full publicity is to be given, and a full opportunity of discussing these questions, which is the real protection to endowments of this kind. If up to this time, the Charity Commissioners have not dealt more largely than they have done with the endowments devoted to elementary education, and which, no doubt, might be more usefully applied at the present day to other purposes, it is because any diversion of the proposed on endowments is generally the object of strong local opposition. There is no reason whatever to apprehend that a board directly responsible to Parliament, such as the Education Board, will be more indifferent to such expressions of local feeling and local opinion than the Charity Commissioners have been. That is the reason for the opinion that I hold, that the proposals of the most reverend Prelate are not well founded. On the other hand, there are cases in which a diversion from the purposes for which the endowments are to be applied would be generally acceptable to the locality and the persons who are chiefly concerned, and it would be extremely inconvenient if in dealing with them the now board were to be so hampered and shackled as they would be if they had to follow the elaborate procedure laid down by the Endowed Schools Act, in cases where the scheme docs not meet with any strong local opposition. It would also be, I think, unfortunate if such schemes as these, which had been fully considered with all the advantages of local knowledge, were then to be disposed of by a chance vote of a majority of this or the other House, which cannot be so well informed. My gravest objection, however, to the introduction of such an Amendment, is that I apprehend it would have the effect of introducing into the further discussions of this Bill the religious question, which has, up to the present, been entirely excluded from the discussion. We have endeavoured, and I believe, with success, to absolutely exclude the religious question from this Bill, and the acceptance of this Amendment, which

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is obviously moved in the interest of voluntary and denominational schools would, I fear, have the effect of introducing the religious element. I have satisfied myself that there is no ground for the apprehensions which were expressed the other day by the noble Marquess opposite and the most reverend Prelate as to the preference of the free school with the conscience clause or without. When we come to that clause I can explain it more at large, but the most reverend Prelate need have no reason to apprehend that this Bill will introduce any prejudicial difference of treatment between those schools which do and those which do not provide religious education. The religious question has up to the present time been absolutely excluded, and I think it would be a subject of great regret if by the acceptance of this Amendment, which is moved in the interests of certain denominational schools, any risk were incurred of the introduction of the religious question into the further discussions. I have no reason to think that this measure, when it has passed through this House, will meet with any serious opposition in the other House. But if it does run any danger of not becoming law this year it is on account of the possible want of sufficient time for its discussion in the other House, and I am quite certain anything which would open the door to discussions in another place upon the question of the amendment of the Charitable Trusts Act and Endowed Schools Act, and, still more, any amendment capable of introducing discussions upon religious questions, would so protract the debates as greatly to endanger the chances or the Bill passing into law during the present Session. I was, therefore, very glad to hear the most reverend Prelate say he was not prepared to divide the House upon the Amendment, because I believe that such a course would have been most prejudicial to the passing of this Bill.
Amendment, by leave of the House, withdrawn.
*LORD DAYEV, who had the following Amendment on the Paper:—
"After Clause 8 to insert the following clause—'The Charity Commissioners for England and Wales, and alter a transfer of their powers under this Act, the Board of Education, shall have the same power of making schemes with respect to elementary schools exempted from the Endowed Schools Acts by Section 8 (b)
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of the Endowed Schools Act, 1869, and Section 3 of the Endowed Schools Act, 1873, where the annual income from endowments of such schools exceeds fifty pounds but does not exceed one hundred pounds, as may be exercised by them with respect to similar schools the income whereof from endowments does not exceed fifty pounds."
said: I have an Amendment on the Paper for the purpose of remedying one of those anomalies referred to by the noble Duke. By some oversight there is no power in any body to make schemes for elementary schools with an income from endowments between,£50 and £100, and I think whenever an opportunity occurs that anomaly ought to be corrected. But after what the noble Duke has said as to the danger to the Bill in another place, and his desire not to introduce into this Bill any amendment which may result in the general review of the Charitable Trusts Act and the Endowed Schools Act, I shall not press it.
Bill to be read 3a on Monday next.

MONEY-LEND1NG BILL. [Lords.]
Amendments reported (according to order), and Bill to be read 3a on Thursday next.

TRAWLERS CERTIFICATES SUSPENSION BILL. [Lords.]
The Lords following were named of the Select Committee:

D. Northumberland.

E. Lauderdale.

E. Camperdown.

E. Dudley.

L. Saltoun.

L. Balfour.

L. Tweedmouth.

L. Hawkesbury.

L. Heneage.

The Committee to meet on Monday next at half-past Three of the clock, and to appoint their own Chairman.

QUESTIONS.

  WAR OFFICE—PROPOSED NEW BUILDINGS.
  THE MARQUESS OF LOTHIAN: I beg to ask Her Majesty's Government whether they will cause a model of the proposed new buildings for the War Office to be made and placed in the

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  precincts of the House for the inspection of Members of both Houses of Parliament. I do not intend to detain the House very long. I addressed this question to Her Majesty's Government because I was not aware as to who was the proper authority, but I now find that the Lord Steward of the Household will answer on their behalf. I sincerely hope that he will be able to accede to the request I make, but I feel very doubtful as to the answer I shall receive. One reason why he may not acquiesce in the making of the model is because it will cost a considerable amount of money, and another is that plans and specifications have already been accepted. I think it is perfectly true that a model would cost a considerable amount of money, but I also think it is quite reasonable to ask such a sum as it may cost should be spent on this account, because it is a matter of great importance that the Houses of Parliament should know the purposes for which this money has been voted, and how it is being expended. With regard to the second point, I am quite convinced that ninety-nine persons out of every hundred cannot form any idea from plans and specifications. And I do not think, in this matter, that I speak without authority, because I think many of your Lordships will recall the fact that when the Admiralty buildings were to be erected, the plans and elevation were submitted and passed by both Houses of Parliament, and the Government accepted them and entered into a contract for their erection. A model was made, on the motion—I am not sure, but I think upon the motion—of the noble Earl sitting on the cross benches. That model was made and brought into the Houses of Parliament, the result being to show what a monstrosity the new Admiralty buildings would have been if they had been put up. The effect of it was that the contract was cancelled and the buildings were not erected. I regret that the same course is not pursued in the case of the present Admiralty buildings, because I think they are unworthy of the dignity of the offices which they contain. In their architecture they are weak where they should be strong, there are useless pediments which are not needed, pillars where they arc not required, and there is a sort of trimming at the top which looks as if it was made out of the bricks from a child's toy box. I am told that when the buildings are finished they will
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  not be large enough to contain the offices of the Admiralty. That is one result of Parliament not being consulted, and not knowing what is being done in respect of our public buildings. They cannot tell unless they see them in models with the elevation of the buildings round about them. I hope the noble Lord will not be deterred, by the fact that the plans and elevations have been shown, from granting the request which I wish to make. While it is no part of the motion of which I gave notice, I should like to appeal to those in authority on the question of the buildings to be erected in King-street. I would ask any of your Lordships to look at the Abbey from the Local Board Offices. You get now the finest view of it that has ever been had. You get it in its grand proportions, not dwarfed by the propinquity of St. Margaret's. Surely it is worth while, before it is too late, to keep open the most splendid view that you have in all London. You take in the whole group, opposite, of the Houses of Parliament. If the line which is proposed is continued you will see nothing of all this but Henry VIII. Chapel. I know that it will cost something to do, but surely it is worth while not to lose the only chance we have ever had in this, metropolis of permanently securing such a view as this. I do not know whom I ought to appeal to, but I appeal to the Government generally not to allow this splendid view to be taken away.
  THE LORD STEWARD OF THE HOUSEHOLD (the Earl of PEMBROKE and MONTGOMERY): I am afraid I cannot give much comfort to my noble friend in the answer which I have to give him. The First Commissioner of Works does not see his way to granting the request with respect to the model of the building. The plans and elevations of the new buildings have been in the tea room in the House of Commons, and have been approved. In regard to the references which have been made to the present new Admiralty buildings, I might remind the noble Lord that that magnificent pile is the result of a Committee of the House of Commons. That does not encourage my right honourable friend to carry on the same procedure with regard to further public buildings.
  THE MARQUESS OF LOTHIAN: I have no doubt whatever that it was owing

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  to its being a Committee of the House of Commons. I regret, and I cannot help regretting, that the answer of the noble Earl was drawn up and considered before the Government heard what I had to say upon the subject. I have already given my reasons why, in my opinion, it was desirable that a model should be made, but if the Government will not accede to my request I cannot help it.
  THE EARL OF WEMYSS: I wish to say that, having heard the answers given to the noble Lord, I shall move a Resolution upon this subject when this House meets next Tuesday.

BUSINESS OF THE HOUSE—WHITSUNTIDE RECESS.
THE EARL OF KIMBERLEY: Before the House adjourns, might I ask when it is proposed that the House shall rise for the Whitsuntide recess?
THE MARQUESS OF SALISBURY: My intention originally was to take the same day as the House of Commons, but as I am told that it will be impossible to send any Bills down to that House on that day, I have come to the conclusion that it is an unnecessary act of self-denial, and I think, therefore, we shall rise on the Thursday.
THE EARL OF KIMBERLEY: Until when?
THE MARQUESS OF SALISBURY: I hope I shall not be considered indecorous if I give as the date the day after Derby Day.
THE EARL OF KIMBERLEY: The other House usually adjourns to the Derby Day.
THE MARQUESS OF SALISBURY: But even the sacredness of that day would not permit us to sit upon a Wednesday, which is a thing we never do.
House adjourned at half-past Five of the clock, to Monday next, a quarter past Four of the clock.