Lords Sitting of 4 May 1899

Preamble
THE LORD CHANCELLOR THE LORD CHANCELLOR took his seat upon the Woolsack at fifteen minutes past Four of the clock.
PRIVATE BILL BUSINESS.
  HASTING CORPORATION TRAMWAYS BILL [H.L.]
  Report from the Select Committee, That it is not expedient to proceed further with the Bill; read, and ordered to lie on the Table.
  WITHINGTON URBAN DISTRICT COUNCIL (TRAMWAYS) BILL [H.L.]
  Report from the Select Committee, That the Committee had not proceeded with the consideration of the Bill, no parties having appeared in opposition thereto; read, and ordered to lie on the Table: The orders made on the 27th of February and the 25th of April last discharged; and Bill committed.
  STRETFORD URBAN DISTRICT COUNCIL (TRAMWAYS) BILL [H.L.]
  Report from the Select Committee, That the Committee had not proceeded with the consideration of the Bill, no parties having appeared in opposition thereto; read, and ordered to lie on the Table: The orders made on the 27th of February and the 25th of April last discharged; and Bill committed.
  FURNESS RAILWAY BILL [H.L.]
  Report from the Select Committee, That the Committee had not proceeded with the consideration of the Bill, the opposition thereto having been withdrawn; read, and ordered to lie on the Table: The orders made on the 10th of March and the 25th of April last discharged; and Bill committed.
  LONDON HOSPITAL BILL [H.L.]
  Reported with amendments.
  BURLEY-IN-WHARFEDALE URBAN DISTRICT WATER BILL.
  Reported with amendments.
  LIVERPOOL OVERHEAD RAILWAY BILL [H.L.]
  Reported with amendments.
  ILFORD GAS BILL.
  Reported with amendments.
  HAMPSTEAD CHURCH (EMMANUEL, WEST END) BILL [H.L.]
  Committee to meet To-morrow.
  ST. JAMES'S AND PALL MALL ELECTRIC LIGHT BILL.
  Committee to meet on Monday next.
  LLANELLY HARBOUR AND PONTARDULAIS RAILWAY BILL [H.L.]
  Report from the Select Committee, That it is not expedient to proceed further with the Bill; read, and ordered to lie on the Table.
  RAWTENSTALL CORPORATION WATER BILL [H.L.]
  Report from the Select Committee, That it is not expedient to proceed further with the Bill; read, and ordered to lie on the Table.
  BEXHILL AND ST. LEONARDS TRAMROADS BILL [H.L.]
  A witness ordered to attend the Select Committee, and to produce documents.
  CLYDE NAVIGATION BILL [H.L.]
  Read third time, and passed, and sent to the Commons.
  BARTON-ON-SEA WATER BILL [H.L.]
  Read third time, and passed, and sent to the Commons.
  ILFORD URBAN DISTRICT COUNCIL (RATES) BILL.
  Read third time, and passed.
  GREAT NORTHERN AND STRAND RAILWAY BILL.
  Brought from the Commons; read first time; and referred to the Examiners.
  LONDON, BRIGHTON, AND SOUTH-COAST RAILWAY (PENSIONS) BILL.
  Brought from the Commons; read first time; and referred to the Examiners.
  SHOTELY BRIDGE AND CONSETT DISTRICT GAS BILL.
  Brought from the Commons; read first time; and referred to the Examiners.
  ABERDEEN HARBOUR BILL [H.L.]
  Returned from the Commons agreed to.
  HERNE BAY WATER BILL [H.L.]
  Returned from the Commons agreed to.
  WALTON-ON-THAMES AND WEYBRIDGE GAS BILL [H.L.]
  Returned from the Commons agreed to.
  GROWBROUGH DISTRICT GAS BILL.
  Returned from the Commons with the amendments agreed to.
  ST. DAVID'S WATER AND GAS BILL.
  Returned from the Commons with the amendments agreed to.
  INFECTION DISEASE (NOTIFICATION) ACT (1889) EXTENSION BILL.
  Second Reading (which stands appointed for this day) put off to Tuesday next.
  EDUCATION DEPARTMENT PROVISIONAL ORDER CONFIRMATION (ABERAVON, ETC.) BILL [H.L.]
  Read third time (according to order), and passed, and sent to the Commons.
  METROPOLITAN POLICE PROVISIONAL ORDER BILL.
  House in committee (according to. order): Bill reported without amendment: Standing Committee negatived; and Bill to be read third time To-morrow.
  LINCOLNSHIRE CORONERS BILL [H.L.]
  Committee of the Whole House (which stands appointed for this day) put off to Tuesday next.
PETITION.
  MUNICIPAL CORPORATIONS (BROUGH FUNDS) ACT, 1872.
  Petitions for amendment of; of the Corporation of Barrow-in-Furness—and of the Millom Urban District Council—Read, and ordered to lie on the Table.
REPORTS.
  EDUCATION (SCOTLAND).
  General Reports by the Chief Inspectors of the Northern and Western Divisions of Scotland for the year 1898: Presented (by command) and ordered to lie on the Table.
  EDUCATION COMMISSIONERS (IRELAND).
  Annual Report for the year 1898: Presented (by command) and ordered to lie on the Table.
PUBLIC BUSINESS.

  THE MONEY-LEANDING BILL.
  VISCOUNT KNUTSFORD: I should like to ask the noble Lord the Chancellor of the Duchy whether he is aware that in the Money-Lending Bill which was circulated yesterday a very important Amendment, which I had the honour to introduce, and which the noble Lord accepted, was omitted?
  LORD JAMES OF HEREFORD: The noble Viscount is quite right. The Bill was circulated with his Amendment and another very important Amendment omitted. The Amendments were very numerous and complicated, and these omissions were an accident, which might occur to the most, careful person. Still, I much regret that they should have occurred, but the moment the error was discovered steps were taken to correct it. A new edition of the Bill, with the noble Viscount's Amendment included, has been printed and circulated.

  LICENSING (DISQUALIFICATION OF JUSTICES REMOVAL) BILL.
  Motion made, and Question proposed—
  "That this Bill be rend a second time."—(Lord Carnworth.)
  LORD CRANWORTH: My Lords, in moving the Second Reading of this Bill, I should like to explain that its object is to provide that a, justice, of the peace shall not be disqualified from acting for any purpose under the Licensing Acts of 1872–74, or under any Act which may for time being be in force for regulating the sale of intoxicating liquors or the granting of licences for such sale, by reason of his holding any share or being otherwise interested, whether beneficially or otherwise, in any railway company, which is a retailer of liquor in the licensing district or in the district or districts adjoining to that in which such justice usually acts, or who is wholly or partly the owner, lessee, or occupier of any licensed premises. It is a very small Bill, but it has some importance in agricultural districts where the disqualification of justices has caused very considerable inconvenience. The Bill has been previously passed by
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  the House without opposition, and I trust your Lordships will give the Measure a Second Reading.
  THE LORD CHANCELLOR (The EARL of HALSBURY): As I am interested in the case of the Magistrates, I must say that this is a very proper Bill to be passed by your Lordships' House. The very minute interest which it may be supposed a person has in any matter of this kind because he happens to have a share in a railway company ought not to be a subject of qualification. It seems to me to be carrying a question of interest to a ridiculous extent. Undoubtedly it has caused considerable inconvenience in various districts, and I trust your Lordships will give a Second. Beading to this Bill.
  Question put.
  Bill read a second time.

  SEATS FOR SHOP ASSISTANTS (SCOTLAND) BILL.
  Motion made, and Question proposed—
  "That this Bill be read a second time."—(The Earl of Lauderdale.)
  THE EARL OF LAUDERDALE: My Lords, this is a Bill which has passed through the other House of Parliament without any opposition whatever, and it falls to my lot to submit it to your Lordships. The Bill provides that in all rooms of a. shop, wareroom, warehouse, or other premises where goods are actually retailed to the public, and where female assistants are employed for the retailing of goods to She public, the employer carrying on business in such premises shall provide scats behind, the counter and in the showrooms, or in such other place as an inspector under this Act may direct, for the use of the assistants employed by him, and such seats shall be in the proportion of not less than one seat to every two assistants employed in each room. Under the Bill any person failing to comply with these provisions is liable, on summary conviction, for a first offence to a. fine not exceeding £3, and for a, second or subsequent offence to a tine not less than £1 and not exceeding £5. The third clause enacts that it shall extend to Scotland only,

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  and the fourth, clause provides that it shall be read and construed as one with the Shop Hours Acts 1892 to 1895.
  LORD SHAND: My Lords, I think I may truly say that, although I have had the honour of a seat in this House for a. number of years, I have not often intruded upon the House or occupied your Lordships' time by taking part in discussions on, matters of general business. On the present occasion, however, I cannot allow this Bill to pass without comment, and, indeed, protest. Having got it this afternoon and given it my best consideration, I have come to the conclusion that on several grounds it is one that the House should not allow to pass its Second Reading. I often sympathise with the noble Earl on the Cross Benches (the Earl of Wemyss) in his efforts to preserve liberty of action in our daily life, to avoid legislation imposing harassing restrictions, and to prevent improper interference with liberty of contract. I confess I did not agree with my noble Friend with reference to the Money-Lending Bill, for I was strongly of opinion, as many of your Lordships were, that in regard to that particular matter there was a crying evil—that young men who were utterly unacquainted with business were taken advantage of, and that in money transactions there was a great deal of what may be popularly called the "spider and the fly," which it was necessary to deal with by legislation. I think, with the Amendments we have adopted, that we have in the Money-Lending Bill a Measure that will be of great value to the country. The Bill now before your Lordships is one of a. wholly different character. I hope I shall not be credited with any want of sympathy with female shop assistants, for whom it is proposed to provide the means of sitting down in their daily occupations. But the questions I would like the House to consider are these: Assuming that the evil exists, is this a, proper remedy; and, in the second place, is the subject of such magnitude that we should have the two Houses of Parliament passing a Bill dealing with it? The noble Earl behind me said the Bill was passed without opposition by the House of Commons. The fact is the Bill has passed without
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  any notice in that House, for no discussion whatever took place upon it. I suppose it came on after midnight, and some honourable Member lifted his hat, and the Bill was passed. I am surprised to find that the Bill is to be applied to Scotland only, and I would ask the noble Earl who has moved the Second Reading of the Bill why Scotland should be singled out for this, invidious distinction. Is it for a moment contended that this is an evil which does not equally exist in England or in Ireland? If that contention be maintained, I dispute it. But I am afraid that it is just one of those cases in which a Measure is to be applied to Scotland as an experiment. The idea probably is that it could be extended later on to England and Ireland. If this is a good Measure it ought surely to apply to the whole kingdom. I do not think the subject is one for legislation at all. If there is an evil, public opinion will meet it and put it right. Let those who are interested in the shop assistants call meetings and make representations to the employers. I am sure that voluntary effort will put matters of this kind right. If the evil exists, it is not too much to expect time ladies will make known their sympathy with the shop assistants, and withdraw their support from the shops where anything which can be regarded in the nature of cruelty is allowed, and so the evil would be cured, Such a matter of detail should not be made the subject of legislation. I could understand, though I should not invite, a general Bill which gave the Home Secretary power to interfere, in many matters of trade, for the comfort and safety of the employees and gave him power to pasts a regulation of this kind, but if the discomfort of shop assistants iv to be made the subject of legislation I do not know where it will stop. I am fully acquainted with the climate of Scotland. Very often in the morning when people go to their business, the weather is fine and bright, but later in the day and unexpectedly there comes a heavy rainfall. If this legislation is adopted we shall probably have a. Bill to compel employers to provide their servants with mackintoshes, goloshes, and umbrellas. I do not know whether this is to be made a Government Bill, or whether it is to receive Government sup-

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  port. I, however, appeal to the noble Marquess at the head of the Government to leave this in open question, and if he should consent to do so I will take it upon myself to move that the Bill be read a second time this day six months.
  THE PRIME MINISTER AND SECRETARY OF STATE FOR FOREIGN AFFAIRS (the Marquess of SALISBURY): I confess I knew nothing of this Bill before I came to this House, and I was not aware that such a Bill was passing through the other House of Parliament. I was very much struck by the observation of my noble Friend behind me, that this was at once too small and too large a Bill to be adopted without very much more careful examination. It is not necessary to say that it is a, very small Bill for Parliament to legislate upon. But besides that, it is in its effect and ultimate purport a very large Bill, because it is introducing us to an entirely new field of legislation which may carry us exceedingly far. In such matters as facility for standing up and sitting down, we have hitherto trusted to the instincts of humanity, believing that people could manage them themselves. But if tee were to say that they ought to sit down, and to See that proper opportunities are provided for sitting down when they desire, I do not see the logical process by which we should confine it to warehouses and shops where female assistants are engaged in retailing goods to the public. The image of the housemaid crosses my mind. How often she must desire to sit down! Are you prepared to have an army of inspectors in examine the house of every householder to see that there are a sufficient number of chairs placed at stated intervals, so that at each moment of exhaustion, the housemaid may sit down in comfort? I am afraid you will find you have undertaken more work than you can do. I have every sympathy with those assistants—and certainly there are no more in Scotland than in other places—who suffer from the want of considerateness and kindness of their employers in this and other respects. I look for the only safe and only effective cure of such evils to the gradual working of civilised opinion, which is carrying the duty of philanthropy more and more to the hearts of every class. And I think you will do more wisely to trust yourselves
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  to that, but, at all events, do not allow this Bill to slip through as an unconsidered thing. It is the sanction of a principle which will call for your consideration in other matters, and will produce great embarrassment. If we are to do it, at least let us have an inquiry into the matter. There has been no inquiry whatever. Let us ascertain if the shopwomen of Scotland require more sitting down than the shopwomen of England. Let us understand on what grounds this very exceptional adoption of a very far-reaching principle has been introduced in this silent, and what I might also say, surreptitious manner. I no not think, without in the least, prejudicing any views which on further investigation we, may take, it is right to make so large a breach in the principles by which we have hitherto conducted our legislation without touch more care and inquiry than has hitherto been given to the subject. So, if my noble Friend divides the House, I shall be compelled to go with him.
  Motion made, and Question proposed—
  "That this Bill be read a second time this day six months."—(Lord Shand.)
  LORD SHAND: After what has fallen from the noble Marquess, I beg to move that this Bill be read a second time this day six months.
  THE EARL OF LAUDERDALE: After the observation of the noble Marquess, I see no other course open to me but to let the Bill drop.
  Question put.
  Bill rejected without a Division.

  THE HEALTH OF THE TROOPS IN SOUTH AFRICA.
  LORD MENDIP (Viscount CLIFDEN): My Lords, I beg to ask the Secretary of State for War whether it is the intention of Her Majesty's Government to keep Ladysmith as a military station, seeing the general insanitary state of the place. A very few words will, I think, suffice in explain my object in placing this Question on the Paper. There has been a great deal of sickness among the troops in Natal, and I am sorry to say, from what I hear, that this is unnecessary sickness. Under date March 4, I am

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  informed that there are at present 116 cases of typhoid fever at Ladysmith out of a total of 1,800 men. Since November there have been 136 cases and 28 deaths from typhoid, mainly due to bad sanitary arrangement, and to the polluted water supply. The principal medical officer has also reported that the huts are too close together, and that the only way to remedy this defect would be to destroy alternate huts. That, of course, means expense, and it is very difficult to get Her Majesty's Government to agree to incur it. I will read to your Lordships a short extract from a local paper, which will explain the present condition of things—
  "In town this season, so far, there have been only seven cases of enteric fever, and only one fatal result. In the camp there have been at least 18 deaths from this cause alone. This of itself is sufficient proof that the sanitary conditions there are by no means perfect. The state of the drainage at the married quarters, which I commented on yesterday, is very bad, the majority of the refuse of all kinds running into dongas only a matter of 200 yards from the camp. These dongas fill up, and every rain washes the overflow back towards the camp. Beyond those dongas, in Watercress Spruit, about one mile from the camp, the water is disgracefully polluted. It seems that the night-soil and stable litter is carried across the spruit, and the droppings font the carts alone would be sufficient to pollute the stream."
  The opinion of the medical men is that if Ladysmith camp is to be retained, it should be vacated by the troops during the summer months, and even then it would take £20,000 or £30,000 to make it habitable. I think your Lordships will agree that this is a case which ought to be inquired into.
  THE SECRETARY OF STATE FOR WAR (The Marquess of LANDOWNE): My Lords, I am afraid I am not able to give my noble Friend any information as to the length of time during which it is likely that. Ladysmith will be occupied as a military station. We regard it as a point of considerable strategical importance, and we are certainly not likely to withdraw from it in 1-he near future. My noble Friend is perfectly correct in saying that the health of the troops at. Ladysmith has left much to be desired. I have made inquiries into the matter, but I cannot find that the climate of Ladysmith, taking one part of the year with another, can be described as a. bad climate,
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  though there are undoubtedly seasons of the year when the weather is both hot and damp, and when the most terrible of all scourges, enteric fever, becomes very prevalent among the troops. We have already done something to improve the sanitary conditions. We spent last year on the improvements of the huts a sum of about £8,000. This year we are spending a further sum of about £15,000 upon the accommodation for the troops in Natal, a part of which will be spent at Ladysmith. It may, perhaps, interest my noble Friend to know that altogether we have spent at Ladysmith no less than £55,000. I have received within the last few days a very valuable Report from the General Officer commanding the troops in South Africa on the question to which my noble Friend has referred. He has made a number of very practical and well-considered suggestions as to the steps which might be taken to mitigate these evils. One of these is to put the troops in camp during part of the year upon healthier ground. Such healthier ground does exist, on the Mooi River. I believe the site is something like 5,000 feet above the sea, and I think I am right in saying that part of the troops have been moved to that place quite lately, and are probably there now. The general officer also calls attention to the necessity of surface draining, and the desirability of improving the water supply and hospital accommodation. These matters will certainly have the consideration of the War Department. I may say that the general made no mention of the fact that huts were in too close proximity to one another, but that is a point into which I shall be glad to inquire. My noble Friend will remember that Ladysmith was occupied in 1897 at very short notice by the troops, and that of necessity there were not at the place those sanitary appliances which are usual in large permanent camps. I can assure my noble Friend that we shall watch the health of the troops with close attention, and no pains will be spared to mitigate those regrettable conditions upon which he has dwelt.

  TROUT FISHING ANNUAL CLOSE TIME (SCOTLAND) BILL [H.L.]
  Road third time (according to order), and passed, and sent to the Commons.

  NATIONAL MONUMENTS IN CHURCHES BILL [H.L.]
  Read third time (according to order), and passed, and sent to the Commons.
  The House adjourned at five minutes after Five of the clock.