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Amendment proposed—
Page 2, after line 19, insert 'Provided that the inspection of schools established by scheme under the Welsh Intermediate Education Act. 1889, shall, subject to regulations made by the Treasury under section 9 of that Act, be conducted as heretofore by the Central Welsh Board for Intermediate Education."—(The Lord President of the Council.)
§ THE LORD PRESIDENT OF THE COUNCILThe Amendment which I have to move to this clause is necessary to remove an apprehension which I found to exist, that the schools established under the Welsh Intermediate Education Act, 1889, would be subjected to inspection under this Bill to the prejudice of the inspection which is at present conducted by the Central Welsh Board. That inspection appears to give general satisfaction to the Principality of Wales, and this Amendment has been placed on the Paper in order to show that there is no intention to interfere with the existing system of inspection and the administration of secondary education by the Welsh Intermediate Education Board.
THE EARL OF KIMBERLEYI have been informed, as the noble Duke has, that there is considerable apprehension on the part of those who are interested in intermediate education in Wales lest there should be any interference with the system of inspection which is carried on there with great success and, it appears, with complete satisfaction to all concerned. I felt quite certain it could not have been the intention of the noble Duke or of the Government to interfere with a system which appears to be carried on with very great success. Those with whom I have been in communication on the subject are quite satisfied with the Amendment of the noble Duke so far as it goes, but it has been suggested to me that it would give greater satisfaction to those who are interested in Welsh intermediate education if additional words were added to the Amendment. Possibly the noble Duke would prefer, and I certainly think if would be better, to consider this matter on the Report stage, when I will move to add the following words to the noble Duke's Amendment—
And that the said Board shall be recognised as the proper organisation for the inspection of any such school as may be desirous of inspection under this section.They feel afraid lest in the very hot competition which exists between these secondary schools there should be some desire on the part of some of them to get the additional advertisement of having been inspected by both the inspectors under this Act and the inspectors appointed by the Central Board. There seems to be some reason for these apprehensions, and if, as I am told, the inspection now carried into effect is perfectly satisfactory, thoroughly efficient, and working extremely well, I think it is not unnatural that there should he a great desire that no rival system of inspection should be introduced. We want a completely satisfactory system of inspection, and to put an end to overlapping. Assuming, as I think I have a right to assume, that the system of inspection as now established in Wales is a satisfactory system, I do not think it is at all unnatural that it is sought to make it impossible to be interfered with by this Bill.
§ THE LORD PRESIDENT OF THE COUNCILIt will be more convenient, 1091 as the noble Earl suggests, to take his Amendment on the Report stage.
§ Question put.
§ Amendment agreed to.
§ THE MARQUESS OF RIPONI should like the noble Duke to inform me whether under sub-section 2 of this clause, which says,
The council of any county or county borough may out of any money applicable for the purposes of technical education pay or contribute to the expenses of inspecting under this section any school within their county or borough,the same restrictions that were placed upon county councils in the application of "beer" money to the purposes of technical education will also apply to any aid they may give to secondary education under this section.
§ THE LORD PRESIDENT OF THE COUNCILAlthough I cannot speak with any absolute certainty, my impression is that this section, so far as it goes, is an extension of the Act under which "beer" money is devoted to certain purposes. My noble Friend is no doubt aware that it has been urged upon me that the Government should have taken this opportunity of making, as the Secondary Education Commission recommended, the "beer" money applicable to secondary education generally. We have not seen our way to do that in this Bill, but, so far as it goes, this section is, I take it, an extension of the purposes to which "beer" money may be devoted. However, I will make that quite clear.
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Amendment proposed—
Page 2, line 23, insert 'Provided that no distinction between schools in respect of such payment or contribution be made on account of the character or, in boarding schools or boarding houses, the conditions of the religious instruction given therein.'"—(The Archbishop of Canterbury.)
THE ARCHBISHOP OF CANTERBURYCounty and borough councils can at present assist secondary schools in various ways, and I know one county council that has proposed to inspect certain secondary schools, but has been stopped by the Local Government Board on the ground that those particular schools have no Conscience Clause. 1092 Now, I have no objection whatever to a Conscience Clause in day schools; I think it is quite reasonable and not at all difficult to work; but I am quite sure that a great many schools which are intended to include religious instruction would be very seriously hampered in imparting that instruction if they were compelled to submit to a Conscience Clause being imposed upon them. I think it would be a very great hardship if such secondary schools were debarred from receiving the same assistance in the way of inspection which is to be given to other secondary schools, simply because they wanted to have their religious instruction thoroughly effective. There is a very good reason why the Conscience Clause should be applied to the day schools, but when it comes to a boarding school the case is altered. It is not a very real hardship to parents if they do not like one boarding school to send them to another. It is very easy to organise the religious instruction in a day school with a Conscience Clause, but it is not at all easy to do so in a boarding school. I do not mean that it is impossible in the case of very big boarding schools, such as Rugby or Harrow, where it is always easy to find one or two masters who are not keeping boarding houses, but who are quite willing to take two or three boys under conditions which the parents may wish. But with the great majority of boarding schools it would not be possible at all, and it is not reasonable to say that such schools must either damage their religious instruction or not have the benefit of the contribution towards inspection. Therefore I suggest that the words which I now move should be added.
§ THE LORD PRESIDENT OF THE COUNCILI am afraid it is impossible to accept the Amendment, which, in my opinion, goes a great deal beyond what the most reverend Prelate contemplates. This clause is of a purely permissive character. The county council or borough council may inspect certain schools if they like, may contribute towards the cost of inspection of certain schools if they like, and may decline to contribute towards the cost of certain schools. We have no power to compel a county council to pay or contribute towards the inspection of any schools, 1093 and this Amendment would appear to insist upon the councils, if they contributed to the cost of inspection of any school, to contribute to the cost of inspection of all the schools within their district, whatever might be their denominational character. Either the proviso would have no effect at all, which I am rather inclined to think would be the result, or else it would have the effect of compelling the county council, instead of contributing towards the cost of any school, to contribute towards the cost of all, and that is quite impossible.
THE ARCHBISHOP OF CANTERBURYI do not think the Amendment would have the effect suggested. I do not believe it would compel the county councils to contribute to all schools if they contributed to one, but would only provide that the denominational question should not be raised. I do not think the councils ought to have the power of introducing into their system of inspection of schools something which will be distinctly unjust to one class of schools as compared with another. I do not think the religious difficulty really occurs in any of these schools. In the secondary education of the country generally there is no serious difficulty about the religious instruction, but to enforce the Conscience Clause upon all sorts of schools by refusing to admit denominational schools to inspection introduces the religious difficulty at once, and I think it would be very much better that the religious difficulty should be altogether kept out, and I know of no other way to keep it out than to say that the county councils should not pay any attention to the religious instruction given when they are dealing with these schools. I shall not say a word against their adopting any scheme which in their judgment they think suitable, but I do not think they ought to have the power of damaging certain schools. When the competition between schools is so keen as it is at present in the case of the smaller secondary schools this becomes a serious matter.
§ THE MARQUESS OF RIPONThe Education Instruction Act provides for a Conscience Clause, and if the councils are required to carry out the conditions 1094 of that Act they would be bound, I think, to require a Conscience Clause.
§ THE LORD PRESIDENT OF THE COUNCILUnder the clause as it stands, we shall not know the reasons why the county councils undertake to contribute or decline to contribute to the cost of inspection. We shall only know that they propose to assist schools A B and C, and not schools D E and F. No provision such as is proposed would enable us to ascertain for what reasons the councils decline to contribute towards the cost of inspection.
THE ARCHBISHOP OF CANTERBURYI do not think it is necessary that the reason should be known to the Education Board. If the county councils are told that they are not to make any distinction between schools on account of the character or, in boarding schools or boarding houses, the conditions of the religious education given, the difficulty will be got over. Some of the denominational schools are exceedingly good schools, and it will not help the cause of education to fine them, as it were, because they are giving the religious instruction which belongs to their particular body.
THE EARL OF KIMBERLEYIt really almost drives one to despair that this question of inspection should forthwith raise a religious difficulty. It is possible, I believe, to import that most thorny matter into every possible subject connected with education. For my part, I wish people thought a little more of education and a little less of the religious difficulty. Such a provision as the one proposed would, in point of fact, have no real effect at all. The county councils would act in the way they considered best. In my opinion, what they ought to do is to spend their money in such a way as to encourage education generally in the whole district, and I should be very sorry indeed to see that they were unwilling to recognise thoroughly efficient schools because of the religious instruction given. I deprecate the introduction of this question, and I hope the noble Duke will allow the clause to stand as it is.
§ THE LORD PRESIDENT OF THE COUNCILI will undertake to look into 1095 the point raised by the noble Marquess (the Marquess of Ripon) and ascertain whether there is anything in the Technical Education Act which would prevent county councils contributing to the inspection of schools which had not a Conscience Clause.
§ THE MARQUESS OF RIPONOwing to financial considerations and the want of sufficient money to contribute to all the schools, the councils must necessarily pick and choose between the schools in the district whatever provision you may put in the Act of Parliament.
§ Question put.
§ Amendment negatived without a Division.
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Question put—
That Clause 3, as amended, stand part of the Bill.
§ Motion agreed to.