Lords Sitting of 2 May 1899

Preamble
The LORD CHANCELLOR The LORD CHANCELLOR took his seat upon the Woolsack at Four of the clock.

REPRESENTATIVE PEERS FOR IRELAND.
Earl of Clonmell—Lord Clarina—Earl of Mountcashell.
Ordered and Directed, That Certificates be sent by the Clerk of the Parliaments to the Clerk of the Crown in Ireland, stating that the Lord Chancellor of the United Kingdom has reported to the House of Lords that the right of the Earl of Clonmell, the Lord Clarina, and the Earl of Mountcashell to vote at the elections of Representative Peers for Ireland has been established to the satisfaction of him the said Lord Chancellor; and that the House of Lords has ordered such reports to be sent to the said Clerk of the Crown in Ireland: And it is hereby also Ordered, That the said Reports of the said Lord Chancellor be sent to the Clerk of the Crown in Ireland.

PRIVATE BILL BUSINESS.
The Lord Chancellor acquainted the House that the Clerk of the Parliaments had laid upon the Table the Certificate from the Examiners that the Standing Orders applicable to the following Bill have now been complied with—
Owen's College, Manchester—(Petition for Bill).
The same was ordered to lie on the Table.

LONDON, WALTHAMSTOW, AND EPPING FOREST RAILWAY (No. 2.)
Examiner's Certificate of non-compliance with the Standing Orders referred to the Standing Orders Committee on Monday next.
MILWALL DOCK.
Examiner's Certificate of non-compliance with the Standing Orders referred to the Standing Orders Committee on Monday next.
BROOKE'S PARK, LONDONDERRY.
Examiner's Certificate of non-compliance with the Standing Orders referred to the Standing Orders Committee on Monday next.
OWEN'S COLLEGE, MANCHESTER.
Examiner's Certificate of non-compliance with the Standing Orders referred to the Standing Orders Committee on Monday next.
MOSS SIDE URBAN DISTRICT COUNCIL (TRAMWAYS) BILL [H.L.]
Report from the Select Committee, That the Committee had not proceeded with the consideration of the Bill, the opposition thereto having been withdrawn; read, and ordered to lie on the Table: The orders made on the 27th of February and Tuesday last discharged; and Bill committed.
GLASGOW CORPORATION (TRAMWAYS, ETC.) BILL [H.L.]
Reported from the Select Committee with amendments.
GLASGOW CORPORATION (GAS AND WATER) BILL [H.L.]
Reported with amendments.
HASTINGS AND ST. LEONARDS GAS BILL [H.L.]
Reported from the Select Committee with amendments.
CLAY CROSS WATER BILL.
Reported without amendment
INFANT ORPHAN ASYLUM BILL [H.L.]
Reported with an amendment.
STOCKTON AND MIDDLESBROUGH WATER BILL [H.L.]
Reported with amendments.
FRIENDS PROVIDENT INSTITUTION BILL [H.L.]
Reported with amendments.
LIVERPOOL OVERHEAD RAILWAY BILL [H.L.]
Committee to meet on Thursday next.
ILFORD GAS BILL.
Committee to meet on Thursday next.
PORT TALBOT RAILWAY AND DOCKS BILL [H.L.]
Report from the Select Committee, That the Committee had not proceeded with the consideration of the Bill, the opposition thereto having been withdrawn; read, and ordered to lie on the Table: The orders made on the 2nd of March and 20th of April last discharged; and Bill committed.
WOODHOUSE AND CONISBROUGH RAILWAY (ABANDONMENT) BILL.
Read the second time, and committed.
SOUTHAMPTON CORPORATION WATER BILL [H.L.]
Read the third time, and passed, and sent to the Commons.
BURY CORPORATION BILL [H.L.]
Read the third time, and passed, and sent to the Commons.
SKIPTON URBAN DISTRICT GAS BILL [H.L.]
Read the third time, and passed, and sent to the Commons.
FARNLEY TYAS MARRIAGES BILL.
Brought from the Commons.
ELECTRIC LIGHTING PROVISIONAL ORDERS (No. 1) BILL.
Brought from the Commons.
PILOTAGE PROVISIONAL ORDER BILL.
Brought from the Commons.
MIDLAND AND SOUTH WESTERN JUNCTION RAILWAY.
Brought from the Commons; read the first time; and referred to the Examiners.
MANCHESTER CORPORATION TRAMWAYS BILL [H.L.]
Reported from the Select Committee with amendments.

OLDHAM CORPORATION BILL [H.L.]
Reported from the Select Committee with amendments.
Metropolitan Water Companies Bill.
Humber Conservancy Bill [H.L.]
Great Northern Railway Bill [H.L.]
Transvaal Mortgage Loan and Finance Company Bill [H.L.]
Loughborough Corporation Bill [H.L.]
North Eastern and Hull and Barnsley Railways (Joint Stock) Bill [H.L.]
North Eastern Railway Bill [H.L.]
Maryport Harbour Bill [H.L.]
Report from the Committee of Selection, That the following Lords be proposed to the House to form the Select Committee for the consideration of the said Bills; namely—

V. Falkland.

L. Ribblesdale (chairman)

L. De Mauler.

L. Wrottesley.

L. Newton.

Agreed to and the said Lords appointed accordingly: The Committee to meet on Friday next, at Eleven o'clock; and all petitions referred to the Committee, with leave to the petitioners praying to be heard by counsel against the Bills to be heard as desired, as also counsel for the Bills.

RETURNS, REPORTS, ETC.

  TRADE REPORTS, 1899.
  Annual Series:
  No. 2238. China (Swatow);
  No. 2239. United States (Chicago, etc.):
  Presented (by Command), and ordered to lie on the Table.

COPYRIGHT BILL [H.L.] AND COPYRIGHT (ARTISTIC) BILL [H.L.]
The evidence taken before the Select Committee to be printed for the use of the Members of this House; but no copies thereof to be delivered, except to Members of the Committee, until further order. (No. 71.)
HOUSE OF LORDS AND COMMONS PERMANENT STAFF.
The evidence taken before the Joint Committee from time to time to be printed for the use of the Members of this House; but no copies thereof to be delivered, except to Members of the Committee, until further order. (No. 72.)
PETITION.
  INTOXICATING LIQUORS.
  Petition against the sale of, to children under the age of thirteen; of Guardians of the Samford Union; read, and ordered to lie upon the Table.
NEW BILLS.

  TRAMWAYS ORDERS CONFIRMATION (No 1) BILL [H.L.]
  A Bill to confirm certain Provisional Orders made by the Board of Trade under the Tramways Act, 1870, relating to Aberdeen Corporation Tramways, Devonport Corporation Tramways, Halifax Corporation Tramways, Matlock Urban District Tramways, Perth and District Tramways, and Reading Corporation Tramways. (No. 73.)
  Presented by the Earl Waldegrave (for the Earl of Dudley); read the first time; to be printed; and referred to the Examiners.

TRAMWAYS ORDERS CONFIRMATION (No. 2) BILL [H.L.]
A Bill to confirm certain Provisional Orders made by the Board of Trade under the Tramways Act, 1870, relating to Audenshaw Urban District Tramways, Clayton Tramways, Eccles Corporation Tramways, Ilkeston Corporation Tramways, Queensbury Tramway, and Southport Corporation Tramways. (No. 74.)
Presented by the Earl Waldegrave (for the Earl of Dudley); read the first time; to be printed; and referred to the Examiners.

TRAMWAYS ORDERS CONFIRMATION (No 3) BILL [H.L.]
A Bill to confirm certain Provisional Orders made by the Board of Trade under the Tramways Act, 1870, relating to Barking Town Urban District Tramways, Blackpool Corporation Tramways, Dudley and Wolverhampton Tramways,

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Gravesend, Rosherville, and Northfleet Tramways, Ilford Urban District Tramways, and Wrexham District Tramways. (No. 75.)
Presented by the Earl Waldegrave (for the Earl of Dudley); read the first time; to be printed; and referred to the Examiners.

PUBLIC BUSINESS.
THE EARL OF KIMBERLY: My Lords, I have to present a petition from the Birmingham School Board in which a number of the clauses of the Board of Education Bill are criticised. The noble Duke the Lord President of the Council will be very glad to hear that the petitioners approve generally of the Bill, but there are several provisions to which they have considerable objection. They are strongly opposed to section 2 of clause 3, which provides that the council of any county or county borough may, out of any money applicable for the purposes of technical education, pay or contribute to the expense of inspecting under this section of any school within their county or borough. This, they say, places the councils in a position of control over inspection. The petitioners also take very great exception to the action of the Education Department with regard to technical schools.

BOARD OF EDUCATION BILL.
On Clause 1.
Amendment proposed—
"Clause 1, page 1, line 5, leave out from 'be' to the end of line 12, and insert 'a Secretary for Education appointed by Her Majesty, and holding office during Her Majesty's pleasure.'"—(Lord Norton.)
*LORD NORTONsaid they must all feel extremely indebted to the noble Duke the Lord President of the Council for this Bill, but he thought the opinion was general that a Secretary for Education would be more efficient than a Board, which would be little better than a sham. It was a notorious fact that the Boards of Trade and Agriculture
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never met, and he believed that putting education under a similar Board would be absolutely mischievous. He had been told, but was surprised to hear it, that the Council had sometimes been called together on education. He recollected when he was Vice-President the Council being called together on one occasion, and the anger of Mr. Disraeli at their being summoned so uselessly. The appointment of a Board of Education would relieve the Minister of feeling of responsibility. He had never heard any reason given in favour of a Board in preference to a Minister except it was that by the appointment of a Board there would be someone to take the place of the responsible head if he fell ill. The Secretary for Scotland had no Board, but if he fell ill there would be someone to take his place. This argument was an absurd one to put forward in favour of a Board. He had strong objection to the appointment of deputies in case of illness, because when a deputy was appointed the chief invariably fell ill. For centuries the Speaker of the House of Commons was never away through illness, but when a deputy was appointed to take his place in case of indisposition the Speaker immediately fell ill. This Board was to consist of a President—no doubt meaning, though without any reason, the Lord President of the Council—the five principal Secretaries of State, the First Commissioner of Her Majesty's Treasury, and the Chancellor of the Exchequer. This was a large provision for the Education Minister's possible illness. He thought that his Amendment would make the Bill a stronger and better Measure, but another objection to it, he understood, was based on financial reasons. If such a Secretary of State, as he suggested, was appointed, as in the case of the Secretary for Scotland, they would avoid all objection of that kind. If they imitated that Department they would obviate all objections to a new Secretary of State, and get all the advantages of a really responsible Minister. A Board would act most injuriously to the Minister—it would screen him from blame if things went wrong, and deprive him from credit if things went right.
THE LORD PRESIDENT OF THE COUNCIL (The Duke of DEVONSHIRE): Although my noble Friend has several

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times in the course of his observations spoken of his Amendment as one for substituting a Secretary of State for the board which is proposed in the Bill, that is not the effect of his Amendment, and I do not think it is what he really proposes. There are very obvious objections which I do not think it is necessary to enter into now to the multiplication of the important office of Secretary of State, and if it were proposed to create an additional Secretary of State in would be very hard indeed to say that the salary of that Secretary of State should be a different salary from that enjoyed by the other Secretaries of State. I think my noble Friend is quite mistaken in supposing that the powers of the Secretary for Scotland are in the least the same as those possessed by the principal Secretaries of State. What I take it the noble Lord really proposes is that the head of the new Educational Department shall be a Secretary for Education, and hold a similar office to that which was created by the appointment of a Secretary for the Administration of the Affairs of Scotland. As I stated on the Second Reading of the Bill, the two alternatives were discussed, and the conclusion arrived at was that there was no very striking reasons for giving the preference to the one organisation rather than to the other. The proposal in the Bill is, it appears to me, both reasonable and convenient, for whereas in the case of the Secretary for Scotland there would be no one to take his place in the event of his falling ill, in the case of the Board to be established by this Measure any of his colleagues on the board might temporarily exercise the duties of the President. As I stated on the Second Reading, there is no intention of the Board acting as a board. The President of the Board will be as responsible for educational policy as the President of the Board of Trade is for commercial policy and the various matters which fall within the scope of his Department. I can assure my noble Friend there is no intention whatever of evolving any sham responsibility. The object of appointing the Board is one of pure convenience, and I must say I do not see any reason from departing from the precedent which has been set in the case of the Board of Trade, the Local Government Board, and the Board of Agriculture.
THE EARL OF KIMBERLEY: My Lords, I made one or two observations on this not very important point at an earlier stage of the Bill, and I must say I sympathise with the object of the noble Lord's Amendment, though I agree that it is quite out of the question to appoint a new Secretary of State. I quite agree with the noble Duke on that subject, but I do not think that the reason which is given for the creation of this Board is a really sufficient one. I imagine that it will not be difficult, in the case of illness of the Secretary of Education, to request some Member of the Cabinet to undertake for a time the business of the Department. There are precedents for such a course. When I was Lord Privy Seal I was asked to undertake the duties of President of the Board of Trade during the illness of Mr. Bryce, and still more recently, when the Prime Minister was ill and left the country at a time when important business had to be transacted, Mr. Balfour fulfilled the duties of the Secretary of State for Foreign Affairs. I never heard that this caused any inconvenience to the Government, or was found to be any embarrassment. I do not conceive that the resources of our legislation are so extremely poor that it is impossible to devise any scheme to meet the circumstances, but the absurd one of placing a number of people on a so-called board whom we are told are not intended to take part in the business of the board in a serious way. Personally, I prefer the arrangement suggested by the noble Lord opposite, though I cannot pretend to say that the matter is of very great importance.
THE LORD PRESIDENT OF THE COUNCIL: I am afraid the instances given by the noble Earl do not bear out his argument. I doubt very much indeed whether, if the noble Earl held the office of Lord Privy Seal and performed any act which is required by Act of Parliament to be performed by the Board of Trade or the President of the Board of Trade, he would be acting legally; and although it is quite true that the duties of Secretary of State for Foreign Affairs were temporarily taken charge of by the First Lord of the Treasury in the circumstances mentioned, the noble Earl opposite must know that not a single dispatch could be sent by the First Lord of the Treasury which had not to be signed

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as well by one of the other principal Secretaries of State. There are some inconveniences and difficulties in the course suggested by my noble Friend which can be obviated by the proposal in the Bill.
EARL SPENCER: I confess I share my noble Friend's sympathy with the Amendment of the noble Lord opposite. The Board to be established by the Bill is altogether delusive and misleads the public, who hold the belief that the Board will sit and consult with the Lord President and the Vice-President on important matters of education. I had the honour of being Lord President of the Council on two occasions, and I can only remember on one occasion calling the Board together. I can bear out what Lord Norton said with regard to Lord Beaconsfield, and I remember quite well how the Secretaries of State grumbled exceedingly at being called together to transact practically unimportant business. I do not agree with the noble Duke as to the illegality of appointing a substitute. For nearly two years I was Lord President without taking practically any part in the business of the office, because I was also at the time Lord Lieutenant of Ireland, and during that period the then Lord Privy Seal acted for me as Lord President of the Council. I shall follow the noble Lord if he divides the House on his Amendment.
THE DUKE OF RUTLAND,while admitting that the arguments of the noble Lord who had moved the Amendment were worthy of consideration, also thought that there was much to be said on both sides, and was not prepared to express a definite opinion on the point. He well remembered the Council on Education being called together on several occasions to advise, and, he supposed, if necessary, to overrule the opinion of the President and the Vice-President.
*LORD NORTONsaid he would not press his Amendment after the statement of the noble Duke the Lord President, but he did not consider that any substantial argument had been advanced against the Amendment. If the proposed Board had power to interfere with the
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Minister, the result would be most mischievous. The Secretary for Scotland is the right precedent to follow.
Amendment, by leave, withdrawn.
EARL SPENCER: I should be glad if the noble Duke would explain the future position of the Lord President in this House. As far as I understand the subsection, there may be a President or a Minister of Education in this House as well as a Lord President of the Council. I understood that when the President of this Board was in this House he was to be actually the Lord President. The words as they now stand do not convey that.
THE LORD PRESIDENT OF THE COUNCIL: I do not think I exactly understand the question of my noble Friend. The Bill certainly does not provide that the Lord President of the Council must necessarily be President of the Board.
EARL SPENCER: But when the President is in this House?
THE LORD PRESIDENT OF THE COUNCIL: Nor then. The President of the Board may be a person other than the Lord President of the Council in this House, or in the other House.
Question put—
"That clause 1 stand part of the Bill."
Motion agreed to.
On clause 2, the Lord Archbishop of Canterbury had the following Amendment on the Paper:—
"Clause 2, subsection 2, page 2, line 7, insert, 'Provided that in dealing with educational endowments of less than £50 a year the procedure shall be subject to clauses 33, 34, 35, 36, 41, 42, 43 of the Endowed Schools Act, l869.'"—(The Lord Archbishop of Canterbury.)
THE LORD PRESIDENT OF THE COUNCIL: I must address an appeal to the most reverend Prelate to be good enough to postpone this Amendment until the Report stage. The Amendment raises a question of very considerable importance, and of a rather intricate legal character as to the existing

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functions of the Charity Commissioners, and as it only appeared on the Paper this morning I have not had an opportunity of consulting my legal advisers as to its effect. I certainly should not be prepared to accept it as it stands without a great deal of further consideration, and in these circumstances I would ask the Most Reverend Prelate to postpone the Amendment until the Report stage.
THE LORD ARCHBISHOP OF CANTERBURY: I am quite prepared to postpone my Amendment, as suggested by the noble Duke.
Amendment, by leave, postponed.
Amendment proposed—
"To leave out subsection 2."—(Lord Colchester.)
LORD COLCHESTERsaid his object in moving this Amendment, although he had little hope of inducing Her Majesty's Government to agree to abandon these powers, was to exclude from the operations of the Education Board any of the powers of the Charity Commissioners in matters relating to education. It was a very great advantage to have these schemes carried on by a body not in any way connected with the Government of the day or any political Party. If the proposal in the clause was carried out there would not be a second check on these schemes. They would be framed by the Education Department and would go direct to Parliament. If they were opposed they would be supported by the supporters of the Government of the day, and opposed by the Members of the Opposition. He contended that this would be an injury to the cause of education and the proper administration of endowed schools, which he did not think would be compensated for by any official or administrative convenience.
THE LORD PRESIDENT OF THE COUNCIL: The noble Lord, in moving this Amendment, has spoken of the duties of the Charity Commissioners, which it is proposed to take power to transfer to the new Board, as if they exclusively related to the framing of schemes. That is by no means the case. It is quite evident that if we are to have an Education Department at all, that Depart-
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ment should be entrusted, at all events, with the power of supervising the administration of schemes which have been framed by the Endowed Schools Commissioners or the Charity Commissioners. I quite admit that the question of the future mode in which new schemes are to be framed may be one involving some considerable difficulty, and it is for that reason that the Bill does not propose to immediately transfer the whole of the powers in regard to the making of such schemes from the Charity Commissioners to the new Board. That can only be done by an Order in Council, which the Bill provides is to be laid before both Houses of Parliament, who will thus have an opportunity of expressing their opinion. I am inclined to think that these powers should, so far as they relate exclusively to educational matters, be exercised by the Education Department, rather than by such a body as the Charity Commissioners. The noble Lord will see that the Bill reserves to the Charity Commissioners in all cases the power to decide whether the endowment is educational or not; but when it has been decided that the endowment is an educational endowment, it is for the Education Department to say in what educational direction that endowment shall be applied. We quite admit, however, that there may be some practical difficulties in the way of a transfer, and till the Department is more thoroughly organised than it can be for some time to come we do not propose to effect any transfer, but reserve the power to do so by Order in Council, and both Houses of Parliament will have full opportunity of expressing their views.
THE EARL OF KIMBERLEY: I have heard with much satisfaction the statement of the noble Duke, because it seems to me that it is absolutely essential, as he has stated, to any real reform of our educational system that all the powers of the Charity Commissioners in regard to education itself should be transferred to the new Education Board. Last year, when the Bill was brought in, I ventured to remark that in my opinion the provisions were not sufficiently explicit on this subject, and I was extremely glad to see in the present Bill a plain statement as to the intentions of the Government, which, as I under-

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stand them, are, that although they will not effect these transfers at once, all the powers of the Charity Commissioners, as regards education proper, will be taken over by the Board as soon as that Board is sufficiently organised. I do not question the necessity of allowing the Charity Commissioners to decide whether a certain school should be treated in a particular manner, and also to decide whether an endowment, or any part of an endowment, is held for, or ought to be applied to, educational purposes. That is a function they can properly perform, but the moment it is decided that any particular endowment is educational, then I understand all the powers in regard to that endowment will be transferred to the Education Board. I fully recognise the difficulty of making the transfer at once, but I trust there will be no unnecessary delay in doing so.
*LORD BARNARDwho claimed to have had perhaps a greater experience of the Charity Commission than most of their Lordships, pointed out that the Charity Commissioners worked under two distinct sets of Acts of Parliament—the Charitable Trusts Acts and the Endowed Schools Acts. At the present time, although the Charity Commissioners did frame and prepare schemes under the Endowed Schools Acts, those schemes had to be laid before the Education Department and approved by them before they could become law. Therefore, at the present moment the Education Department had an absolute voice in controlling schemes affecting educational endowments. The Charity Commissioners since 1854 had been entrusted by the Legislature with a certain amount of control and supervision over charitable endowments of all kinds, and he assumed that if this transfer took place the Charity Commissioners would still continue to have the same power and control over educational endowments that they now had. He suggested that the noble Duke, without accepting the Amendment in its entirety, might at a later stage introduce an Amendment by which the present process would be reversed—namely, that the Education Department should have the initiation of schemes relating to educational endowments; but that no scheme should become law until it had been sub-
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mitted to, and approved by, the Charity Commissioners, as the protectors of Charitable Endowments and Trusts of every description.
Amendment, by leave, withdrawn.
EARL SPENCER: Before the clause is adopted I should like to ask the noble Duke a question upon it. This clause, I need hardly point out, is one of the most important clauses in the whole Bill. I am very glad the noble Lord has withdrawn his Amendment, because I think that if it had been carried one of the best parts of the Bill would have been struck out. I am very anxious to know what the intention of the Government is with regard to the Science and Art Department. I am one of those who feel very strongly the importance of secondary education in regard to technical education. Technical education in this country will never be successful unless secondary education is promoted to a much greater extent than is the case at present. There is a feeling abroad in certain quarters that the Government may, under the first section of this clause, leave the Science and Art Department exactly as it is now. While I believe that the past efforts of the Science and Art Department have done a great deal, I think great changes in the management of that Department are rendered necessary by the great advance of technical education. I wish to know whether the noble Duke intends to reorganise that Department?
THE LORD PRESIDENT OF THE COUNCIL: I do not think it will be possible for me to say very much upon the future of the Science and Art Department until the Departmental Inquiry has taken place which I referred to on the Second Reading of the Bill. I quite admit that the Science and Art Department will have to be dealt with in a much larger manner than simply transferring it from South Kensington to Whitehall. Obviously, having established a Department responsible for the whole of the education of the country, secondary as well as elementary, it will be necessary that there should be a secondary education branch of that Department. The question has, I believe, been discussed in educational circles whether the organisation of the Department should be dual, or should contain three divi-

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sions—whether there should be a division for elementary education, another for secondary education, and a third for technical education, or whether secondary education should include secondary education proper and technical education. Upon that point I should not like to express any decided opinion until the inquiry which we propose to institute has been concluded. But that there shall be a Secondary Education Department is an absolute necessity, and it must have a very close connection with, if it is not placed absolutely in charge of, technical education also.
*THE MARQUESS OF RIPON: I do not rise to complain that the noble Duke has not been able to give a more definite answer at present, but I take the earliest opportunity of expressing an earnest hope that he will not separate what he calls secondary education proper from technical education.
Question put—
"That clause 2 stand part of the Bill."
Motion agreed to.

CLAUSE 3.
Amendment proposed—
"Page 2, after line 19, insert 'Provided that the inspection of schools established by scheme under the Welsh Intermediate Education Act. 1889, shall, subject to regulations made by the Treasury under section 9 of that Act, be conducted as heretofore by the Central Welsh Board for Intermediate Education."—(The Lord President of the Council.)
THE LORD PRESIDENT OF THE COUNCIL: The Amendment which I have to move to this clause is necessary to remove an apprehension which I found to exist, that the schools established under the Welsh Intermediate Education Act, 1889, would be subjected to inspection under this Bill to the prejudice of the inspection which is at present conducted by the Central Welsh Board. That inspection appears to give general satisfaction to the Principality of Wales, and this Amendment has been placed on the Paper in order to show that there is no intention to interfere with the existing system of inspection and the administration of secondary education by the Welsh Intermediate Education Board.
THE EARL OF KIMBERLEY: I have been informed, as the noble Duke has, that there is considerable apprehension on the part of those who are interested in intermediate education in Wales lest there should be any interference with the system of inspection which is carried on there with great success and, it appears, with complete satisfaction to all concerned. I felt quite certain it could not have been the intention of the noble Duke or of the Government to interfere with a system which appears to be carried on with very great success. Those with whom I have been in communication on the subject are quite satisfied with the Amendment of the noble Duke so far as it goes, but it has been suggested to me that it would give greater satisfaction to those who are interested in Welsh intermediate education if additional words were added to the Amendment. Possibly the noble Duke would prefer, and I certainly think if would be better, to consider this matter on the Report stage, when I will move to add the following words to the noble Duke's Amendment—
"And that the said Board shall be recognised as the proper organisation for the inspection of any such school as may be desirous of inspection under this section."
They feel afraid lest in the very hot competition which exists between these secondary schools there should be some desire on the part of some of them to get the additional advertisement of having been inspected by both the inspectors under this Act and the inspectors appointed by the Central Board. There seems to be some reason for these apprehensions, and if, as I am told, the inspection now carried into effect is perfectly satisfactory, thoroughly efficient, and working extremely well, I think it is not unnatural that there should he a great desire that no rival system of inspection should be introduced. We want a completely satisfactory system of inspection, and to put an end to overlapping. Assuming, as I think I have a right to assume, that the system of inspection as now established in Wales is a satisfactory system, I do not think it is at all unnatural that it is sought to make it impossible to be interfered with by this Bill.
THE LORD PRESIDENT OF THE COUNCIL: It will be more convenient,

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as the noble Earl suggests, to take his Amendment on the Report stage.
Question put.
Amendment agreed to.
THE MARQUESS OF RIPON: I should like the noble Duke to inform me whether under sub-section 2 of this clause, which says,
"The council of any county or county borough may out of any money applicable for the purposes of technical education pay or contribute to the expenses of inspecting under this section any school within their county or borough,"
the same restrictions that were placed upon county councils in the application of "beer" money to the purposes of technical education will also apply to any aid they may give to secondary education under this section.
THE LORD PRESIDENT OF THE COUNCIL: Although I cannot speak with any absolute certainty, my impression is that this section, so far as it goes, is an extension of the Act under which "beer" money is devoted to certain purposes. My noble Friend is no doubt aware that it has been urged upon me that the Government should have taken this opportunity of making, as the Secondary Education Commission recommended, the "beer" money applicable to secondary education generally. We have not seen our way to do that in this Bill, but, so far as it goes, this section is, I take it, an extension of the purposes to which "beer" money may be devoted. However, I will make that quite clear.
Amendment proposed—
"Page 2, line 23, insert 'Provided that no distinction between schools in respect of such payment or contribution be made on account of the character or, in boarding schools or boarding houses, the conditions of the religious instruction given therein.'"—(The Archbishop of Canterbury.)
THE ARCHBISHOP OF CANTERBURY: County and borough councils can at present assist secondary schools in various ways, and I know one county council that has proposed to inspect certain secondary schools, but has been stopped by the Local Government Board on the ground that those particular schools have no Conscience Clause.
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Now, I have no objection whatever to a Conscience Clause in day schools; I think it is quite reasonable and not at all difficult to work; but I am quite sure that a great many schools which are intended to include religious instruction would be very seriously hampered in imparting that instruction if they were compelled to submit to a Conscience Clause being imposed upon them. I think it would be a very great hardship if such secondary schools were debarred from receiving the same assistance in the way of inspection which is to be given to other secondary schools, simply because they wanted to have their religious instruction thoroughly effective. There is a very good reason why the Conscience Clause should be applied to the day schools, but when it comes to a boarding school the case is altered. It is not a very real hardship to parents if they do not like one boarding school to send them to another. It is very easy to organise the religious instruction in a day school with a Conscience Clause, but it is not at all easy to do so in a boarding school. I do not mean that it is impossible in the case of very big boarding schools, such as Rugby or Harrow, where it is always easy to find one or two masters who are not keeping boarding houses, but who are quite willing to take two or three boys under conditions which the parents may wish. But with the great majority of boarding schools it would not be possible at all, and it is not reasonable to say that such schools must either damage their religious instruction or not have the benefit of the contribution towards inspection. Therefore I suggest that the words which I now move should be added.
THE LORD PRESIDENT OF THE COUNCIL: I am afraid it is impossible to accept the Amendment, which, in my opinion, goes a great deal beyond what the most reverend Prelate contemplates. This clause is of a purely permissive character. The county council or borough council may inspect certain schools if they like, may contribute towards the cost of inspection of certain schools if they like, and may decline to contribute towards the cost of certain schools. We have no power to compel a county council to pay or contribute towards the inspection of any schools,

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and this Amendment would appear to insist upon the councils, if they contributed to the cost of inspection of any school, to contribute to the cost of inspection of all the schools within their district, whatever might be their denominational character. Either the proviso would have no effect at all, which I am rather inclined to think would be the result, or else it would have the effect of compelling the county council, instead of contributing towards the cost of any school, to contribute towards the cost of all, and that is quite impossible.
THE ARCHBISHOP OF CANTERBURY: I do not think the Amendment would have the effect suggested. I do not believe it would compel the county councils to contribute to all schools if they contributed to one, but would only provide that the denominational question should not be raised. I do not think the councils ought to have the power of introducing into their system of inspection of schools something which will be distinctly unjust to one class of schools as compared with another. I do not think the religious difficulty really occurs in any of these schools. In the secondary education of the country generally there is no serious difficulty about the religious instruction, but to enforce the Conscience Clause upon all sorts of schools by refusing to admit denominational schools to inspection introduces the religious difficulty at once, and I think it would be very much better that the religious difficulty should be altogether kept out, and I know of no other way to keep it out than to say that the county councils should not pay any attention to the religious instruction given when they are dealing with these schools. I shall not say a word against their adopting any scheme which in their judgment they think suitable, but I do not think they ought to have the power of damaging certain schools. When the competition between schools is so keen as it is at present in the case of the smaller secondary schools this becomes a serious matter.
THE MARQUESS OF RIPON: The Education Instruction Act provides for a Conscience Clause, and if the councils are required to carry out the conditions
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of that Act they would be bound, I think, to require a Conscience Clause.
THE LORD PRESIDENT OF THE COUNCIL: Under the clause as it stands, we shall not know the reasons why the county councils undertake to contribute or decline to contribute to the cost of inspection. We shall only know that they propose to assist schools A B and C, and not schools D E and F. No provision such as is proposed would enable us to ascertain for what reasons the councils decline to contribute towards the cost of inspection.
THE ARCHBISHOP OF CANTERBURY: I do not think it is necessary that the reason should be known to the Education Board. If the county councils are told that they are not to make any distinction between schools on account of the character or, in boarding schools or boarding houses, the conditions of the religious education given, the difficulty will be got over. Some of the denominational schools are exceedingly good schools, and it will not help the cause of education to fine them, as it were, because they are giving the religious instruction which belongs to their particular body.
THE EARL OF KIMBERLEY: It really almost drives one to despair that this question of inspection should forthwith raise a religious difficulty. It is possible, I believe, to import that most thorny matter into every possible subject connected with education. For my part, I wish people thought a little more of education and a little less of the religious difficulty. Such a provision as the one proposed would, in point of fact, have no real effect at all. The county councils would act in the way they considered best. In my opinion, what they ought to do is to spend their money in such a way as to encourage education generally in the whole district, and I should be very sorry indeed to see that they were unwilling to recognise thoroughly efficient schools because of the religious instruction given. I deprecate the introduction of this question, and I hope the noble Duke will allow the clause to stand as it is.
THE LORD PRESIDENT OF THE COUNCIL: I will undertake to look into

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the point raised by the noble Marquess (the Marquess of Ripon) and ascertain whether there is anything in the Technical Education Act which would prevent county councils contributing to the inspection of schools which had not a Conscience Clause.
THE MARQUESS OF RIPON: Owing to financial considerations and the want of sufficient money to contribute to all the schools, the councils must necessarily pick and choose between the schools in the district whatever provision you may put in the Act of Parliament.
Question put.
Amendment negatived without a Division.
Question put—
"That Clause 3, as amended, stand part of the Bill."
Motion agreed to.

CLAUSE 4.
Amendments proposed—
"Page 2, line 25, leave out 'as to' and insert 'of not less than 12 or more than 24 persons, of whom.'"
"Page 2, line 26, leave out 'of' and insert 'shall be,' and after 'and' insert 'other.'"—(The Bishop of Winchester.)
THE BISHOP OF WINCHESTERsaid he had put these two Amendments on the Paper mainly with the view of obtaining some information as to the character and responsibilities of this Consultative Committee. On the Second Reading he was unable to obtain the information, but he ventured to hope that before they were asked to pass this clause they would have more information as to this vague and shadowy body. At present there was nothing to indicate whether the numbers of the Committee would be five, or 100, or 500, whether its powers would be large or small. He agreed that the process of election, and the tenure of office of the members were questions which could wait, but he thought the House should know how many members the Committee would consist of, how it would be constituted, and how far the advice tendered was to be of a private and confidential character.
THE LORD PRESIDENT OF THE COUNCIL: The right reverend Prelate has inquired what would be the probable size of the Consultative Committee which it is proposed to constitute. I should say that the Committee would consist of about the number of members indicated in the right reverend Prelate's Amendment—namely, not less than 12, or more than 24. It has been left entirely within the discretion of the Board of Education or the Minister of Education to decide what the size of the Council shall be, but the number, of course, can be altered from time to time by an Order in Council. I should very much object to putting words into the Bill which would fix any exact number.
THE MARQUESS OF RIPON: I would suggest whether it would not be advisable to appoint the members of the Consultative Committee for a limited time only. If their tenure is indefinite, they may get out of touch with educational feelings and wants, and become a sort of educational oligarchy.
Question put.
Amendment negatived.
THE LORD PRESIDENT OF THE COUNCIL: Clause 4 provides that the Consultative Committee shall exist, as to not less than two-thirds, of persons representing universities "and bodies interested in education." As the right reverend Prelate (the Bishop of Winchester) pointed out on the Second Reading, this is an insinuation that the universities are not interested in education, and I propose to alter the clause so that it will read "persons representing universities and other bodies interested in education."
Amendment proposed—
"Page 2, line 26, leave out from 'representing' to 'for' in line 27, and insert 'bodies interested in secondary education, and bodies interested respectively in elementary education, in rate-supported, and in Voluntary schools.'"—(Lord Colchester.)
LORD COLCHESTERcontended that Voluntary schools and rate-supported schools should both have their representatives on the Consultative Committee, and denied that this would lead to unnecessary friction.
EARL SPENCER: Before the noble Duke the Lord President of the Council replies, I should like to say that I strongly object to the Amendment. I consider that the words "and other bodies interested in education" cover the whole ground.
THE LORD PRESIDENT OF THE COUNCIL: The Amendment which the noble Lord has moved goes in the direction of defining by Act of Parliament the composition of this Committee, which I do not consider expedient. If you attempt to insert any more definite provisions in the Bill as to the composition of this Committee, it is quite certain that in another place, if not here, we shall have pages of Amendments on behalf of bodies who wish to secure for themselves direct representation on this Committee. The only way of escaping this difficulty is to leave the Board of Education and the Minister of Education responsible for the composition of the Committee.
Amendment, by leave, withdrawn
Amendment proposed—
"After line 31 insert (2) the advice so given by the consultative committee shall be recorded.'"—(The Bishop of winchester.)
THE BISHOP OF WINCHESTER, in moving this Amendment, urged that it was desirable that the advice given by the Consultative Committee should be recorded, as it would be out of the question, even if the advice given was confidential, that it should remain so.
THE EARL OF KIMBERLEY: I do not know what view the noble Duke may take on this point, but I am strongly of opinion that such a provision should not be inserted in the Bill. I believe the effect of it would be disastrous. If we give the Consultative Committee this sort of power of recording their opinions, I shall have doubts as to the wisdom altogether of setting up the Committee. It would be entirely contrary to the object of the Bill as I read it, and I feel quite sure it would produce a state of discord in cases where there happened to be great differences of opinion.
THE LORD PRESIDENT OF THE COUNCIL: For some purposes, no doubt, the Consultative Committee will be part of the organization of the Department, and Minutes will undoubtedly have to be kept of its proceedings for those purposes, but I should very much deprecate the giving of the power proposed. I should object to the advice, any more than any other part of the Departmental proceedings, being published. It would be fatal to the utility of the Consultative Committee.
Amendment, by leave, withdrawn
Amendment purposed—
"Leave out clause 4, and insert 'it shall be lawful for the Secretary for Education to consult such persons experienced in matters of education as he may think advisable, with such remuneration as the. Treasury may determine.'"—(Lord Norton.)
*LORD NORTONsaid there was great danger of the Consultative Committee overruling the Minister, and of taking away the responsibility of the Minister to Parliament. It was the suggestion to the Commission on whose Report this Bill is founded, by various associations of teachers and headmasters. In his opinion, the associations of teachers were already exercising too great a power in their own special views and interests over the Education Department. He quite agreed that the Minister for Education should receive the advice of experts, but if the permanent Consultative Committee were to rule the actions and share the responsibility of the Minister, it would be a very serious matter. The Consultative Committee were proposed to have power to frame regulations for the register of teachers. This would be entirely in the hands of the Committee, would be discussed in Parliament as their regulations, and would in so important a point relieve the head of the Department altogether of responsibility. He thought the object desired could be obtained if the President of the Board of Education was allowed by the Act to consult authoritatively such persons experienced in matters of education as he might think desirable, in the same way as the President of the Board of Trade by the Conciliation Act consulted experts to settle trade disputes. This would be much better than having a

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gigantic, powerful, and permanent body by the side of the Education Minister which might overrule his decisions and would certainly relieve him of responsibility to Parliament.
EARL SPENCER: Before the noble Duke replies, I should like to say that I cannot go the length of Lord Norton in desiring altogether to throw out the proposal for the Consultative Committee. I am quite aware that there are considerable arguments in favour of what he has said. I should strongly deprecate anything being done which would materially affect the responsibility or decrease the responsibility of the Minister for Education, but I do not think the proposal in the Bill is open to that objection. The Lord President now has power to call experts to give him technical advice on any subject, but it would be impossible to remain in that position. There is a strong opinion existing among some of the leading educational bodies that a permanent Consultative Committee is necessary, and, therefore, I think the creation of a Consultative Committee is almost indispensable. At the same time, I am not quite satisfied with the form in which the noble Duke has put it, and I should like him to consider whether, in some way, a better form could not be adopted. I entirety agree that the inspection of schools and the framing of rules for the register of teachers are questions which should have reference to the Consultative Committee. I rather object to the permissive character of the second subsection of the clause, as, though it does not leave the Consultative Committee equal powers with the Minister for Education, I think it might lead in present form to considerable difficulty. I do not see why the second sub-section should not be omitted. I am strongly of opinion that no Minister for Education would deal with any big subject without having reference to those in touch with education. He could always do that without it being suggested in this Bill that he should do so, and I think the very fact of the presence of this sub-section would lead to difficulties, as the Committee would resent any action on the part of the Minister unless they had been consulted.
THE LORD PRESIDENT OF THE COUNCIL: I understand that my noble Friend (Earl Spencer) would like to see the omission of the latter portion of the sub-section, "advising the Board of Education on any matter referred to the Committee by the Board," but I do not understand that my noble Friend would wish to limit the functions of the Consultative Committee to "framing, with the approval of the Board of Education, regulations for the formation of a register of teachers." Therefore, it would be necessary for my noble Friend, if he omits the latter part of the sub-section, to frame a comprehensive list of subjects which the Consultative Committee would be consulted upon. [Earl SPENCER assented.] Well, perhaps my noble Friend will consider between now and the Report stage if he can draft a list. I am inclined to think it would be better to leave the responsibility with the Minister of deciding for himself as to what questions he will or will not consult the Committee upon. With regard to the observations of my noble Friend (Lord Norton), I would say that all the discussions which have taken place since the Bill was introduced last year have shown that those who are professionally interested in the subject of education attach the greatest importance to the constitution of this Committee. As I stated in a previous stage of the Bill, there is a strong desire on the part of the headmasters of most of the principal Secondary schools, because of the advantages they consider it would be to secondary education generally, to come into relationship with, and under the inspection of, the Education Department. That desire was universally made conditional upon the constitution of such a Consultative Committee as we propose. There was also felt some apprehension that if they came under the control of the Department, without such a Consultative Committee being added, some attempt might be made to impose upon them a uniformity of system such as prevails in some foreign countries, which they strongly resented. The formation of such a Committee as this, which would necessarily be consultative upon such matters as the inspection of Secondary schools, seems to be an indispensable guarantee for the maintenance of their independence, and without this security the schools would not

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associate themselves with a Government Department. I think it would be extremely undesirable if, at the moment of constituting a new Board of Education, we were to omit such a provision, to which so much importance is attached by those who have any right to speak for a very large portion of the teaching profession.
Amendment, by leave, withdrawn
Question put—
"That clause 4 stand part of the Bill."
Motion agreed to.
On clause 5, Amendment proposed—
"Page 2, line 35, after 'council,' insert 'nothing in this Act shall take away any powers of either House of Parliament with reference to schemes framed under the Endowed Schools Acts, 1869, and amending Acts.'"—(Lord Colchester.)
LORD COLCHESTERsaid he moved this Amendment in order to get an explanation from the noble Duke as to what the effect of the clause would be, and whether it was intended that schemes made under the Endowed Schools Act would be Orders under this Bill.
THE LORD PRESIDENT OF THE COUNCIL: The Orders to which this clause refers are the Orders mentioned in the Bill in clause 2; that is to say, the Order as to the transfer of the powers of the Charity Commissioners to the Board, and the order for the transfer to the Consultative Committee. These are the Orders to which the clause refers, and it provides that they shall be laid before Parliament for not less than four weeks during which that House is sitting before it is submitted to Her Majesty in Council. The Bill does not make any alteration in the procedure for making schemes by the Charity Commissioners or the Endowed Schools Commissioners, except that it places for certain purposes the Education Department in the place of the Charity Commissioners, but the schemes to which the noble Lord has referred will have to be submitted to Parliament in exactly the same way as they are at present.
Amendment, by leave, withdrawn
Amendment proposed—
Page 2, line 35, after 'council,' insert 'and shall not be so submitted if either House address Her Majesty against it.'"—(The Archbishop of Canterbury.)
THE ARCHBISHOP OF CANTERBURY: My Amendment provides that the draft of any Order made under the Act shall not be submitted if either House addresses Her Majesty against it. I think that such an Order in Council as might be made under the clause is one which ought to be under the control of either House of Parliament, so that, before being finally ratified, it should be open to either House to discuss the exact form which it should take.
THE LORD PRESIDENT OF THE COUNCIL: This clause has been inserted into the Bill for the precise object which the most reverend Prelate appears to have in view. The clause has been inserted so that both Houses of Parliament may have the opportunity of discussion in regard to the Orders, but what the most reverend Prelate proposes is, that either House shall be able to exercise an absolute veto upon an administrative act of the Government, and to that I am utterly unable to agree.
Question put.
Amendment, by leave, withdrawn.
Question put—
"That clause 5 stand part of the Bill."
Motion agreed to.
Clauses 6, 7, 8, and 9, agreed to.
Bill reported, with Amendments, to the House, and recommitted to the Standing Committee, and to be printed as amended.

BILLS ADVANCED.
  TROUT FISHING ANNUAL CLOSE TIME SCOTLAND BILL [H.L.]
  Reported from the Standing Committee without Amendment, and to be read the third time on Thursday next.
NATIONAL MONUMENTS IN CHURCHES BILL [H.L.]
Reported from the Standing Committee without Amendment, and to be read the third time on Thursday next.
SEATS FOR SHOP ASSISTANTS (SCOTLAND) BILL.
To be read the second time on Thursday next.—(The Earl of Lauderdale.)
LOCAL GOVERNMENT PROVISIONAL ORDERS (No. 1) BILL.
To be read the second time on Friday next.—(The Lord Harris.)
EDUCATION DEPARTMENT PROVISIONAL 0RDER CONFIRMATION ABERAVON, ETC.) BILL [H.L.]
House in Committee (according to Order): Bill reported without amendment: Standing Committee negatived; and Bill to be read a third time on Thursday next.
METROPOLITAN POLICE PROVISIONAL ORDER BILL [H.L.]
Read the second time (according to order), and committed to a Committee of the whole House on Thursday next.
BROUGHTY FERRY GAS AND PAVING ORDER BILL [H.L.]
Read the third time (according to order), and passed and sent to the Commons.
FARNLEY TYAS MARRIAGES BILL.
Read the first time; and to be printed. (No. 77.)
ELECTRIC LIGHTING PROVISIONAL ORDERS (No. 1) BILL
Read the first time; to be printed; and referred to the Examiners. (No. 78.)

PILOTAGE PROVISIONAL ORDER BILL.
Read the first time; to be printed; and referred to the Examiners. (No. 79.)
House adjourned at Seven of the clock.