Lords Sitting of 21 March 1899

Preamble
THE LORD CHANCELLOR took, his seat on the Woolsack at fifteen minutes after Four of the clock.
REPRESENTATIVE PEERS FOR IRELAND.
  EARL OF WICKLOW.
  Report made from the Lord Chancellor, that the right of Ralph Francis Earl of Wicklow to vote at the elections of Representative Peers for Ireland has been established to the satisfaction of the Lord Chancellor; read, and ordered to lie on the Table.
PRIVATE BILL BUSINESS.
  HERNE BAY WATER BILL [H.L.]
  Committee to meet on Thursday next.
  WALTON-ON-THAMES AND WEYBRIDGE GAS BILL [H.L.]
  Committee to meet on Thursday next.
  CAMBRIDGE UNIVERSITY AND TOWN GAS BILL [H.L.]
  Committee to meet on Friday next.
  YEADON AND GUISELEY GAS BILL [H.L.]
  Reported from the Select Committee with amendments.
  NORTHERN ASSURANCE COMPANY BILL [H.L.]
  Reported with amendments.
  OYSTERMOUTH RAILWAY OR TRAM-ROAD BILL [H.L.]
  Read third time, and passed, and sent to the Commons.
  DUNDEE GAS, TRAMWAYS, AND EXTENSION BILL [H.L.]
  Standing Order No. 92 considered (according to order), and dispensed with, with respect to a petition of Captain Clayhills Henderson: Leave given to present the said petition.
RETURNS, REPORTS, ETC.

  EDUCATION (ENGLAND AND WALES).
  Return showing—

  1. The expenditure from the grant for public education in England and Wales in the year 1898, upon annual grants to elementary schools;

  2. The actual number of public elementary day schools on the Annual Grant List, on the 31st August 1898; the accommodation and number of scholars in those schools;

  3. Detailed statistics of inspected schools, 1897–1998: Public elementary day schools, evening continuation schools, and certified efficient schools; the accommodation, number of scholars, teachers employed, particulars of grant earned, income, expenditure, etc.;

  4. Summary tables of educational star tistics; and

  5. Number of school boards under various heads of population.

  SOUTH AFRICA.
  Further correspondence relative to the affairs of Swaziland.

  BOARD OF AGRICULTURE.
  Annual Reports of Proceedings for the year 1898, under—

  1. The Diseases of Animals Acts, the Markets and Fairs (Weighing of Cattle) Acts, etc., etc.;

  1499

  2. The Tithe Acts, the Copyhold Act, 1894, the Inclosure Acts, the Metropolitan Commons Acts, the Drainage and Improvement of Land Acts, the Universities and College Estates Acts, the Glebe Lands Act, 1888, etc., etc.

  LIGHT RAILWAYS ACT, 1896
  Orders made by the Light Railway Commissioners and modified and confirmed by the Board of Trade authorising the construction of—

  I. A light railway in the county of Lincoln from Grimsby to Saltfleetby, with a branch to Cleethorpes;

  II. Light railways between Barking Town and the Beckton Gas Works, in the county of Essex;

  III. Light railways in the county of Lincoln and the West Riding of the county of York, from Haxey to Crowle and Marshlands, with branches;

  IV. A light railway in the county of Lancaster from Liverpool to Prescot;

  V. A light railway from the Esplanade to the Isle of Wight Railway Company's Station, Ventnor;

  VI. Light railways in the townships of Chirton, North Shields, Tynemouth, and Cullercoats, and the Urban District of Whitley and Monkseaton, in the county of Northumberland;

  VII. Light railways in the county of Stafford from Cheddleton Junction on the North Staffordshire Railway to Caldon Low and Hulme End;

  VIII. A light railway between Didcot in the county of Berks and Watlington in the county of Oxford;

  IX. A light railway from Trowse in the county of Norfolk to Beccles in the county of Suffolk;

  X. Light railways from Stourbridge to Kinver in the counties of Worcester and Stafford.

  Presented (by command), and ordered to lie on the Table.

  UNIVERSITIES (SCOTLAND) ACT, 1889.
  I Abstract of accounts of the University of St. Andrews, for the year ended 30th September 1898, being the annual report on the state of the finances of the University under the provisions of section 30 of the Universities (Scotland) Act, 1889.
  II. Abstract of accounts of the University of Glasgow, for the year ended 30th September 1898, being the annual report on the state of the finances of the University under the provisions of section 30 of the Universities (Scotland) Act, 1889.
  Laid before the House (pursuant to Act), and ordered to lie on the Table.

  BROUGHTY FERRY GAS AND PAVING ORDER BILL [H.L.]
  Read second time (according to order).
PUBLIC BUSINESS.
  TROUT FISHING ANNUAL CLOSE TIME (SCOTLAND) BILL [H.L.]
  Second Reading (which stands appointed for this day) put off to Tuesday the 18th of April next.

PARISH CHURCHES (SCOTLAND) BILL.
THE SECRETARY FOR SCOTLAND (Lord BALFOUR of BURLEIGH): My Lords, I move that the House do now resolve itself into Committee on this Bill.
Question put.
Motion agreed to.
Question proposed—
"That Clause 1 stand part of the Bill."
Question put.
Motion agreed to.
On Clause 2—
Amendment proposed—
"Page 1, line 10, after 'of' insert 'the heritors and Kirk Session of the parish and.'"—(Lord Tweedmouth.)
LORD TWEEDMOUTH: My Lords, my object in moving this Amendment is

1501
to secure that all the interests in any particular church or manse which it is proposed to deal with under this Bill should be thoroughly considered, and that all parties interested should give their consent to any proposal under the Bill. It is an important and serious thing to pull down an old church, or manse, to sell that old church or manse, and the site of it, and the churchyard that may surround it, in order to apply the money so obtained to other purposes. I admit there are cases where it is desirable to do so, but I think in every case all the interests concerned should be most carefully considered, and that their consent should be obtained. The Bill only requires the consent of the Presbytery in which the particular church is situated. The Presbytery, your Lordships well know, consists only of the ministers of the churches in that particular district. In Scotland the lay element has a very strong interest in the Established Church. The whole of the property of the church, whether it be teinds, or fabrics, or land, is vested in the heritors, and this Bill provides in no way for the consent of the heritors being obtained. The church has only a sort of Me interest in the funds, the sites, and the fabrics, whereas the reversionary interests are vested entirely with the heritors. If a church becomes vacant permanently, they can dispose of the church and its site. It seems to me that it is only fair that their consent should be required to any proposal under this Bill. The noble Lord the Secretary for Scotland appeared last Session to be of this opinion, because when this Bill was brought before your Lordships' House last year I moved an exactly similar Amendment to the effect that the consent of the heritors should be required as well as that of the Presbytery, and the noble Lord was good enough to consent to my Amendment, and the Bill passed through in that amended form. I have this year gone one step further, and I ask the House to support me in requiring the consent also of the representatives of the congregation—that is to say, the Kirk Session, consisting of the ministers and the elders of the church, the latter being on an equal footing in Scotland with the minister of the church, and being the direct representatives of the congre-
1502
gation. Last year it was rather hinted that the congregations in the churches that were likely to be affected by this Bill were not large, and that their interests were not great; but only the other day, so far as the nine city churches in Edinburgh are concerned, the noble Lord the Secretary for Scotland admitted that the average number of communicants in those churches were 800. There are five churches, I believe, which would be affected by the Bill in Glasgow, and there again the number of communicants is considerable, averaging, I believe, something like 700. I do really think it will commend itself to your Lordships that the consent of the congregation should in some way be obtained before a proposal under this Bill is accented. My object, then, is not in any way to contravene the principle of the Bill. I only am anxious that all the parties interested, who have by law an interest in a particular church, shall in some way give their consent before a scheme under this Bill receives sanction. My Amendment, therefore, would run in this way—
"Where, from changes of population, it is expedient to change the site of a parish church in a city or town, and any person shall undertake to provide a new church in a suitable situation in the same city or town, any person interested, with the consent of the heritors and Kirk Session of the parish and the Presbytery of the Bounds, may apply to the Court of Teinds to sanction the change of site of such church, and the Court may dispose of the application as may seem just."
I beg to move the Amendment standing in my name.
THE SECRETARY FOR SCOTLAND: My Lords, I am sure the noble Lord will allow me to put him right upon one matter of fact in which he made an erroneous statement, I am perfectly certain, by inadvertence. He said the Presbytery in Scotland consisted only of ministers, but, as a matter of fact, there are as many elders in the Presbytery as there are ministers, because every Kirk Session has a right to send an elder. I am afraid I cannot accept this Amendment, on the ground that I think there is no real occasion for it. The proper body to represent the interests of the church is the Presbytery,

1503
and while the Presbytery should legitimately have a veto on any proposal of this kind, I do not think it would be right to give the Kirk Session an absolute veto, which would be the effect obtained by putting in the noble Lord's Amendment. I think it is quite right that both heritors and the Kirk Session should be consulted, and that they should both have an opportunity of being heard, but that will be done as a matter of course under the procedure which is adopted by the Court of Teinds. There is no doubt whatever that the Court of Teinds will take care that notice is given both to the heritors and the Kirk Session, and I think that is a sufficient safeguard of their interests. It is no doubt the case that the heritors have a large interest in the fabric of the church, but I am afraid I must say that the heritors are not in all cases members of the church, and I am also obliged to add that I am afraid if they were given in all cases a veto there would be some amongst them who would use that veto not for the purpose of protecting their interests, but for hindering the procedure under this Bill. No heritor under this Bill can be put to increased pecuniary charges, and I think the best course will be that provided in the Bill as it now stands—namely, that while the heritors and Kirk Session may be heard in their own interests they may not have an absolute veto. There-fore I am unable to accept the Amendment of the noble Lord.
LORD TWEEDMOUTH: May I ask the Secretary for Scotland why, if he takes this view now with regard to the heritors, he consented to my Amendment last year?
THE SECRETARY FOR SCOTLAND: The construction of the clause was different last year, and now the initiative is placed upon all persons interested. I accepted the Amendment last year over the Table without consultation with others. After consideration and consultation with others, I have come to the conclusion that I was too hasty in accepting the Amendment at that time, and that what I now say is the right view to take—namely, that while heritors and Kirk Sessions are entitled to appear in their own interests, it is
1504
going too far to give them absolute veto over all the changes proposed.
Question put.
Amendment negatived.
Question put—
"That Clause 2 stand part of the Bill."
Motion agreed to.
New clause proposed—
"Page 2, after line 11, insert new Clause 3 —
"3. The Court of Teinds, before making any order under this Act for the sale of any old church or site thereof, and manse, shall satisfy itself whether there are any objects of historical or architectural interest in connection with such church, site, or manse which are worthy of being preserved and maintained, and, on being satisfied that such objects exist, to direct that such church, site, or manse shall be disposed of subject to such stipulations and conditions as the Court shall consider appropriate and sufficient to secure the proper preservation and maintenance of such objects.
"The Court of Teinds, before making any order to change the site of a parish church in a city or town, shall satisfy itself that reasonable provision is made for the care and support of the poor of the district from which said church is proposed to be removed.
"Should the Court of Teinds be of opinion that any locality from which a church or manse is proposed to be removed is in need of an open space, it may, in its discretion, sanction the removal of such church or manse on condition only that the old church or manse shall be demolished, and that the site thereof shall be cleared and left as an open space in all time coming.—(Lord Tweedmouth.)
LORD TWEEDMOUTH: I hope the noble Lord will look upon my new clause with better favour than he regarded the Amendment I moved to clause 2. The object of this clause is to give directions to the Court of Teinds with regard to the manner in which they are to make alterations under the Act. It does seem to me that very great care should be taken as to the method in which these sites of old churches are dealt with tinder this Bill. My Amendment asks, in the first place, that the Court of Teinds shall be directed to consider carefully all matters of historical or architectural interest, and that they should make provision for the safeguarding of any such objects. The second point raised by my Amendment is that reasonable provision should be made for the

1505
care of the poor of the parish. It has always been recognised in Scotland that the care of the poor of the parish, whether they belong to the Established Church congregation or not, is essentially a duty of the Established Church of the parish, and of the ministers and elders of that church. John Knox himself laid down that one-third of the Church revenue should go to the Church, one-third to the poor, and one-third to education. I am afraid very little now goes from the Church funds in Scotland to either the poor or to education, but that the ministers take the whole. On these grounds it is all the more necessary, I think, that real provision is made for the poor of the parish, especially in the city districts where, however much the population may have been depleted, there will be a residuum of poor, who will require to have their interests looked after. The third point which this new clause raises is the question of open spaces within the particular district in which the old church is to be abolished. I think, my Lords, and I hope your Lordships will agree with me, that when it is proposed to pull down a church or manse in a densely-populated district one of the subjects which should be carefully considered is whether the site of the church is suitable, as such sites have often been found to be in London, for an open space. I therefore propose that the Court of Teinds should specially inquire into that subject when they are dealing with applications under this Bill, and that they should, if necessary, in making the Order, lay down that the site of the church or manse or churchyard should be applied to this purpose when it is thought desirable. These are the objects of my Amendment, and they are objects which, I think, are very clear and which want very little argument to support them. I know we on this side of the House are in the hands of your Lordships on the other side, and I move this Amendment, therefore, ad miseri-cordiam. I am sure my view is the right one, whatever view may be taken by the noble Lord the Secretary for Scotland.
THE SECRETARY FOR SCOTLAND: The noble Lord has a confident assurance that he is in the right as to which he will not value my opinion. I am quite willing to accept the first of the paragraphs proposed with one or two verbal alterations. I do not see how there can be any architectural interest in connection with the site or the manse. If the noble Lord would confine it to the church, and substitute for the words "to direct that such church, site, or manse shall be disposed" the words "may direct," which is necessary to make the sentence grammatical, I will accept it. So far as the second and third paragraphs are concerned I am afraid I cannot accept them. With regard to the care and support of the poor, I am not quite sure that I fairly understand the object which the noble Lord has in view. I should think he would have known, so far as the pecuniary support of the poor is concerned, that that has now very largely been transferred from the Kirk Sessions to the parish councils. To accept the Amendment in the form in which it is placed on the Paper would clearly be to presume an interference with the duty of the parish councils. The noble Lord let fall a sort of obiter dictum, if I may so call it, that very little money now went to the poor. I think he underestimates the amount that is done for the poor, but, of course, there is ambiguity in the term "poor." I admit that very little money collected at the church door goes to the poor who are paupers, but a great deal is done for the poor who are not upon the paupers' roll. Of course, I am not able to say whether the proportion so spent is a third or not, but I know from my own experience that a considerable portion is expended in that direction. I object to the Court of Teinds being brought in to look after the spiritual condition of the poor. That is entirely beyond their function, and a function which they could not possibly discharge. The proper court for taking charge of these interests is the Presbytery, and under it the Kirk Sessions. The

1507
Presbytery is as fully a court of Scotland us the Court of Teinds, and it is to the Presbytery that the spiritual affairs of the district under its charge are committed. The noble Lord may say he has not the same confidence in the Presbytery that I have—
LORD TWEEDMOUTH: Hear, hear.
THE SECRETARY FOR SCOTLAND: But I believe no Presbytery will consent to the removing of a church if by its removal the spiritual needs and interests of the poor of the district will be prejudiced, and therefore, on that ground, I cannot accept the second paragraph of this Amendment. The third paragraph, of course, opens up a subject which appeals very much to the sympathy of your Lordships. I do not think I can accept it in the form in which it stands, because it seems to imply that if the Court of Teinds so decrees, the whole value of the site and the fabric may be devoted to making an open space for the district. I do not think that is a fair burden to lay on the fund which would be set free, and I am sure the town councils of Edinburgh and Glasgow would take that view. I admit that it is an element, however, which ought to be considered, and if it was put in a form less peremptory than it is I should be glad to consider it. I propose not to accept the second and third paragraphs, but as regards the third paragraph I will postpone the Standing Committee until after Easter to see if I can devise a paragraph which would go somewhat in the direction of meeting the views of the noble Lord.
LORD TWEEDMOUTH: I beg to thank the noble Lord for the modicum of concession he has made to me, but I think what he said as to the amount of the funds which go to the benefit of the poor has gone somewhat in the direction of proving my case. Funds are given to the poor in these parishes now. That is the very thing I want to secure that the poor shall have in the future. I hope the noble Lord may see his way in the Standing Committee to meet that
1508
point also. I am glad to accept for what it is worth—and I hope it may be of great worth—the Amendment as the noble Lord proposes to alter it.
Question put—
"That this clause, as amended, be here inserted."
Motion agreed to.
Question put—
"That clause 3 stand part of the Bill."
Motion agreed to.
Question put—
"That clause 4 stand part of the Bill."
Motion agreed to.
Bill re-committed to the Standing Committee; and to be printed. (No. 30.)

SUPREME COURT (APPEALS) BILL.
Motion made, and Question proposed—
"That this Bill be read a second time."—(The Lord Chancellor.)
THE LORD CHANCELLOR (The Earl of HALSBURY): My Lords, I beg to move the Second Reading of this Bill, which is urgently needed, and which enacts that notwithstanding anything in section 12 of the Supreme Court of Judicature Act, 1875, or in section 1 of the Supreme Court of Judicature Act, 1890, if all parties to an appeal or Motion consent to the Appeal or Motion being heard and determined before two Judges of the Court of Appeal, the Appeal or Motion may be heard and determined accordingly, subject, nevertheless, to the same right, if any, of appeal to the House of Lords as if the hearing and determination had been before three judges.
Question put.
Bill read a second time, and committed to a Committee of the Whole House.
House adjourned at Five of the clock.