Lords Sitting of 20 March 1899

Preamble
THE LORD CHANCELLORtook his seat upon the Woolsack at a quarter past Four of the clock.

PRIVATE BILL BUSINESS.
THE LORD CHANCELLORacquainted the House that the Clerk of the Parliaments had laid upon the Table the Certificates from the Examiners that the further Standing Orders applicable to the following Bills have been complied with: —
Crowborough District Gas.
St. David's Water and Gas.
And the Certificate that no Standing Orders are applicable to the following Bill—
Broughty Ferry Gas and Paving Order [H.L.]
The same were ordered to lie on the Table.

STANDING ORDERS COMMITTEE.
Report from, That the Standing Orders not complied with in respect of the Petition for additional provision in the Mersey Docks and Harbour Board (Pilotage) Bill [H.L.] ought to be dispensed with, and leave given to the Committee on the Bill to insert the additional provision.
That the Standing Orders not complied with in respect of the Petition for additional provision in the Gainsborough Urban District Council (Gas) Bill [H.L.] ought to be dispensed with, and leave given to the Committee on the Bill to insert the additional provision.
That the Standing Orders not complied with in respect of the London Water (Welsh Reservoirs and Works) Bill ought to be dispensed with.
That the Standing Orders not complied with in respect of the Belfast Corporation Bill ought to be dispensed with, provided clause 41 be struck out of the Bill.
That the Standing Orders not complied with in respect of the National Telephone Company (No. 1) Bill ought to be dispensed with, provided clause 94 be struck out of the Bill.
That the Standing Orders not complied with in respect of the National Telephone Company (No. 2) Bill ought to be dispensed with, provided clause 16 be struck out of the Bill.
Read, and agreed to.

WORKINGTON CORPORATION WATER BILL [H.L.]
Petition for additional provision; of the Corporation of Workington; together with proposed clauses and amendments annexed there to; read, and referred to the Examiners.
DUNDEE GAS, TRAMWAYS, AND EXTENSION BILL [H.L.]
A Petition of Messrs. Grahames, Cur-rev, and Spens, of 30, Great George Street, Westminster, Parliamentary agents, praying for leave to present a petition of Captain Clayhills Henderson, praying to be heard by counsel against the Bill, although the time limited by Standing Order No. 92 for presenting such Petition has expired; read, and ordered to lie on the Table; and Standing Order No. 92 to be considered Tomorrow in order to its being dispensed with in respect of the said Petition.
ARBROATH CORPORATION CAS BILL [H.L.]
Committee to meet on Friday next.
KIRKCALDY CORPORATION AND TRAMWAYS BILL [H.L.]
Committee to meet on Friday next.
CROMER PROTECTION BILL [H.L.]
The Queen's consent signified; and Bill reported from the Select Committee with amendments.
BIRKENHEAD CORPORATION BILL [H.L.]
Reported from the Select Committee with amendments.
WALLASEY TRAMWAYS AND IMPROVEMENTS BILL [H.L.]
The Queen's consent signified; and Bill reported from the Select Committee with amendments.
LOUGHBOROUGH AND SHEEPSHED RAILWAY BILL [H.L.]
Reported from the Select Committee with amendments.
AIRDRIE AND COATBRIDGE WATER BILL [H.L.]
Report from the Committee of Selection that the Lord Fermanagh (E. Erne) be proposed to the House as a member of the Select Committee in the plaee of the Earl of Northbrook; and that the Lord Fermanagh (E. Erne) be Chairman of the said Committee: read, and agreed to.
CAMBRIDGE UNIVERSITY AND TOWN GAS BILL [H.L.]
THE CHAIRMAN OF COMMITTEESinformed the House that the opposition to the Bill was withdrawn: The order made on Tuesday the 7th instant discharged; and Bill committed.
TOTLAND WATER BILL [H.L.]
THE CHAIRMAN OF COMMITTEESinformed the House that the opposition to the Bill was withdrawn: The order made on Friday the 10th instant discharged; and Bill committed.
EDUCATION DEPARTMENT PROVISIONAL ORDER CONFIRMATION"(SWANSEA) BILL [H.L.]
Committed to a Committee of the Whole House on Thursday next.
TRANSVAAL MORTGAGE LOAN AND FINANCE COMPANY BILL [H.L.]
Committed: The Committee to be proposed by the Committee of Selection.
GLASGOW DISTRICT SUBWAY BILL [H.L.]
Read third time, and passed, and sent to the Commons.
RUSHDEN AND HIGHAM FERRERS DISTRICT GAS BILL [H.L.]
Read third time, and passed, and sent to the Commons.
GREAT YARMOUTH PIER BILL [H.L.]
The Queen's consent signified; and Bill reported from the Select Committee, with amendments.
RETURNS, REPORTS, ETC.

  TRADE REPORTS, 1899.
  I. Annual Series: No. 2211. Trade of Ancona for the year 1898;
  II. Miscellaneous Series: No.500. Commercial Education in Austria:
  Presented (by Command), and ordered to lie on the Table.

  WAR OFFICE.
  Two Orders in Council defining the duties of the principal officers charged with the administration of the Army—

  1. Dated 21st November 1895;

  2. Dated 7th March 1899, revoking the Order in Council dated 21st November 1895.

  UNIVERSITY OF LONDON COMMISSIONERS.
  Notification of appointment on the 10th March 1899 of Mr. Thomas Barlow, M.D., F.R.C.P., to fill a vacancy in the body of Commissioners for the University of London caused by the resignation of Sir William Roberts, M.D.
  Laid before the House (pursuant to Act), and ordered to lie on the Table.

  RAILWAY COMPANIES POWERS ACT, 1864 (EALING AND SOUTH HARROW RAILWAY COMPANY).
  Draft Certificate of the Board of Trade for authority to raise additional capital.
  Laid before the House (pursuant to Act), and ordered to lie on the Table.

PETITION.
  VIVISECTION.
  Petition for the suppression of the practice of; of Meeting in London; read, and ordered to lie on the Table.
BILLS ADVANCED.
  BROUGHTY FERRY GAS AND PAVING ORDER BILL [H.L.]
  To be read second time To-morrow.

  LINCOLNSHIRE CORONERS BILL.
  Motion made and Question proposed—
  "That, this Bill be read a second time."—(Lord Hereage.)
  LORD HENEAGE: My Lords, this is a very simple Bill, and a very local Bill, but I think I should be wanting in courtesy to your Lordships if in moving that it be read a second time I did not say why the Bill is necessary for the county of Lincolnshire and not for the rest of England. The Bill is drawn on the same lines as the Yorkshire Bill, and its object is to abolish the anomalous state of things existing with regard to coroners in the county of Lincolnshire. The Yorkshire Bill became law last year, and this Bill is introduced, under the advice of the Home Office, by the Lincolnshire County Committee, which was constituted under the Act of 1888 for the three divisions of Lincolnshire. The divisions of Lindsey, Kesteven, and Holland are represented on that Committee. I do not propose to enter fully into this Bill, which is really of a very technical character. Under the Statute Law Revision Act, 1891, the latter part of section 38 of the Coroners Act of 1844 relating to the counties of Lincoln and York was repealed. These are the only two counties in which there are three different divisions which are separate administrative counties. Under the Coroners Act of 1887 it is provided by section 38 that the whole of Lincolnshire shall be a county for the purposes of that Act, and section 41 constitutes the justices in gaol sessions the "local authority." But in direct contradiction to that it is enacted under the Local Government Act of 1888 that the divisions of Lincolnshire shall respectively be separate administrative counties, and that the business of gaol sessions in regard to coroners shall be transacted by the joint committee of the three county councils of Lindsey, Kesteven, and Holland. The exact effect of that is not clear even to lawyers, much less to laymen, but in practice coroners whose districts are situate wholly in one division of Lincolnshire are appointed and their salaries paid by the county council of that division, whilst their disbursements are rendered to and paid by another body, formerly the gaol sessions, but now the joint committee of the county

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  councils of the three divisions. To remove this anomaly, it is desirable to provide that cach division of Lincolnshire shall be a scparate administrative county for all the purposes of the Coroners Acts. It is also desirable to remove the doubt at present existing as to the proper authority to arrange for any alteration of the coroners' districts which are situate wholly within one administrative county, and to provide that such alteration may be made by the respective county councils. That is, in short, the purport of this Bill, and I have now to ask your Lordships to give it a Second Reading.
  THE LORD CHANCELLOR (The Earl of HALSBURY): I am afraid I cannot ask your Lordships to take this Bill so shortly as my noble Friend has done. The Bill seems to me to raise very important and serious questions which are in the highest degree technical. I have not seen the Bill before now, and I am of opinion that its provisions might be attended with serious consequences. It repeals two sections of an Act of Parliament which was passed with very great care and after considerable discussion, and I would ask the noble Lord whether it would not be proper to adjourn this matter in order that the Bill might be carefully examined. I do not think any of your Lordships, except the noble Lord himself, has had any notice of it, and the light and airy fashion, if I may say so, with which he has dealt with the Bill is likely to mislead the House as to the effect of it. The Bill seems to me to raise very serious and important questions, and I think the Second Reading should be adjourned.
  LORD HENEAGE: My Lords, I do not know whether I am in order in replying to the remarks of the noble and learned Earl on the Woolsack, but I should like to say that this Bill is on exactly the same lines as the Bill which was passed last year for Yorkshire, and in which the Home Office invited Lincolnshire to join. Unfortunately, however, through some delay in the meeting of the county authority, Lincolnshire was unable to be included in the Bill. The Bill which I am now asking your Lordships to read a second time is brought in not only by the advice, but at the request of the Home
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  Office, and I am authorised to say that they support the Bill in every respect, but they thought it would be better that it should be brought in by the local authority. If the noble and learned Earl on the Woolsack thinks I was wanting in courtesy to the House in not going more fully into the provisions of this Bill, I apologise to the House, but I spoke briefly on the subject because the Bill is a highly technical one, and because an explanaion would involve reference to such a lot of statutes. I thought it would be for the convenience of the House that I should not go into them, especially as this Bill is on exactly the same lines as the Yorkshire Bill which was passed last year.
  *THE PRIME MINISTER AND SECRETARY OF STATE FOB FOREIGN AFFAIRS (The MARQUESS of SALISBURY): My Lords, the noble and learned Earl on the Woolsack is one of your Lordships whose duty it is to look through that number of statutes which I think the noble Lord opposite spoke of with horror, if not with some contempt, and I feel that unless he who is the guardian of the law has properly looked into this matter it would be rather rash on our part to give this Bill a Second Reading to-day, especially when the amount of work is not so pressing as to prevent the Bill being taken up at a later period. Although the noble Lord who represents the Home Office, who is away owing to illness, is, I believe, an assenting party to the introduction of this Bill, I think it would be wiser on the whole to accept the suggestion of the noble and learned Lord on the Woolsack and adjourn it.
  THE EARL OF KIMBERLEY: I see the noble and learned Lord the Chancellor of the Duchy of Lancaster in his place, and I think we should be glad to hear his view. Probably he will understand the Bill.
  LORD JAMES OF HEREFORD: No doubt I shall understand it when I have had an opportunity of reading it, and I should have that opportunity if the Bill was adjourned.
  Second Reading adjourned to Thursday next.

  UGANDA.
  THE EARL OF CAMPERDOWN: My Lords, I rise to ask, with reference to recent events in Uganda, whether Major Macdonald's expedition has finally terminated; and whether his Report will be presented to Parliament when received. The most recent Papers which have been presented with regard to Uganda carry the history of the expedition of Major Macdonald only so far as the unfortunate fighting which followed upon the mutiny of the Soudanese, and I ask this question in the hope that Her Majesty's Government may be able to give us some later information with regard to the expedition. Your Lordships will remember that Major Macdonald's expedition was a large expedition, fitted out in the year 1897, in the month of June, I think it was, and that the instructions to that expedition were that they were to investigate the sources of the Juba. That expedition, which was a very large and important one, consisted of 600 Swahalis, 50 Sikhs, and five British officers specially detached from this country. There was a Maxim battery, and it was to be joined by a body of 300 Soudanese. Major Macdonald took command of the expedition, and proceeded up country on the 23rd September. The Soudanese who joined him rose in revolt, and from that day—the 23rd September 1897 —to the 3rd May 1898 the expedition was occupied in fighting these Soudanese, and also in resisting other revolts which arose in other parts of Uganda. So far as the official Papers relating to Major Macdonald's expedition are concerned they terminate there. On the 3rd May Major Martyr, an officer who was well acquainted with the Arabic language, and also with the habits of the Soudanese, arrived and took over the command of the troops. My Lords, the expedition was then incited to revert to its original plan, and all information since that date is derived only from newspapers and similar sources. It was believed that Major Martyr left Kampala about the end of May, and marched to Mumias, 150 miles towards the coast, from where he branched off to Save, about 80 miles from Mumias, on the north of Mount Elgon, where the headquarters of the expedition are reported to have remained. Two small flying columns proceeded, one led by himself,
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  which went to the north-west as far as a place called Tarrangole and subsequently returned to headquarers, the other led by Captain Austin, and proceeding up the west coast of Lake Rudolph. It returned in November to headquarters. Since that date nothing has been heard, but on the 4th March Major (now Colonel) Maedonald arrived at Mombasa, and I believe has since proceeded to Cairo. It was reported in the papers that Colonel Macdonald had returned to Mombasa for the purpose of reorganising the expedition, having left a post somewhere near Save with the intention of returning and proceeding in the north-west. I merely state the report as I read it in the papers. I want to know whether that expedition is finally terminated, and whether the Report of its proceedings since made, which will of course, be presented to the Foreign Office, will be laid on the Table of this House when it is received?
  *THE PRIME MINISTER: My Lords, it is perfectly true that an expedition was sent out under Col. Macdonald, of which the main object was to ascertain more exactly the frontier which had been agreed upon some time before between what was then the Italian sphere of influence and our own, and as the boundary was indicated by the head waters of the river Juba, and our geographical knowledge of the locality was singularly deficient, we thought that it. was important that we should be able to-exactly indicate how far British influence extended. I may, however, say fairly that that was not the only object of Col. Macdonald's expedition. There were rumours at the time of designs on. the Upper Nile, which experience did not altogether falsify, and these made us anxious to establish our military power at some station of the Upper Nile. Unfortunately the mutiny among the Soudanese troops, to which the noble Earl has referred, brought that particular branch of the expedition to an untimely end. It has been thought that it involved special blame to Col. Macdonald that such a mutiny took place, but if the noble Earl will study what has gone on in the neighbouring Free State of the Congo, where they have had larger experience and a fuller establishment, he

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  will see that the difficulty of avoiding a mutiny of coloured troops was one to which they were exposed in quite as great a degree as we were. I believe it was the knowledge of the successful mutiny that was carried on shortly before against Baron Dhanis that incited our Soudanese to rise in their turn. The suppression of the mutiny, as the noble Lord says, occupied several months, but it had a worse effect than that, for it BO diminished the force at the command of Col. Macdonald that it was not thought wise to prosecute the original enterprise to its full extent, so certain movements connected with the exploration of Lake Rudulph took place, and the result will be shown when Papers are laid on the Table. A more important point alluded to by the noble Earl is that connected with the name of Major Martyr, a very efficient and gallant officer. A considerable portion of Col. Macdonald's troops, with other troops that were in the Protectorate, made an expedition from the higher water of the Nile down the river bank, and that expedition under Major Martyr has, on the whole, been successful. The first object of it was to deal with the Dervishes, who were at a place on the right bank of the Nile a few miles south of Lor. When Major Martyr arrived at Bedden, which is the extreme point to which steamer navigation from Khartoum is practicable, he entered into communication with the Congolese Commandant at Kero, which is about half-way between that place and Bor. He proceeded in his steamboat to Kero, and after a friendly consultation with the Commandant, who expressed his readiness to co-operate with him, advanced to reconnoitre towards Bor, which he found abandoned, and learnt that the Dervishes, hearing that an English force was enroute, had dispersed. The Sudd obstruction, which the Egyptian steamers had been unable to pentrate at the junction of the White Nile with the Bahr Ghazel, was reported to extend southward as far as Shambe, which is midway from that junction to Beddcn, and about 200 miles from either point. This 200 miles of Sudd lies therefore at present as an insuperable obstruction to the navigation between Bedden and Khartoum. Perhaps, however, when the Nile is high again—it is now low—a navigable channel may be reopened by natural causes
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  or by the efforts of steamers, as has happened in the past. Until, however, that takes place, I do not suppose Major Martyr is likely to proceed much further down the Nile, and, under these circumstances, I should imagine that after establishing a post at Bedden, which, as I have said, will bo the eventual head of navigation, he would return to the Protectorate. But the noble Earl will bear in mind we have no direct means of communication. The telegraph only extends 300 miles from the coast, and there are 500 miles above that which can only be reached by runners. Our information, therefore, is very imperfect. We hope Col. Macdonald's Report will be soon in our hands, and, when we have the Papers, we shall have great pleasure in laying them upon the Table. If we have not given information up to the present, it is simply because up to now it has only reached us in a fragmentary form, and could hardly afford any information to the House.
  THE EARL OF CAMPERDOWN: I am much obliged to the noble Marquess for the information he has given. I suppose we may assume that Colonel Macdonald's own command has now terminated.
  *THE PRIME MINISTER: I think that is the case unless any other circumstances arise, but I must not be understood to be pledged on the subject.

  POLICE IN CEYLON.
  The following Notice stood on the Paper in the name of Lord Stanley of Alderley—
  "To call the attention of the House to the inefficient action of the magistrates and police in Ceylon in the cases of the deaths of Mr. Tewson and Mr. Talwattee; to the oppression and extortion taking place there under the Waste Lands Ordinance; and to the persecution of Mr. Le Mesurier; and to move for papers."
  *LORD STANLEY OF ALDERLEY: My Lords, I regret to say that I heard to-day from Lord Stanmore, who wrote to me yesterday, and has telegraphed again to-day, stating that he is confined to his bed through a bad cold or influenza. He has, therefore, requested me to postpone my Notice until Friday.
  Motion, by leave, postponed.

  PARTRIDGE SHOOTING (IRELAND)BILL.
  Motion made—
  "That this Bill be read a third time."—(The Earl of Camperdown.)
  Question put.
  Motion agreed to.
  Motion made—
  "That this Bill do pass."
  Question put.
  Motion agreed to.

  EASTER RECESS.
  THE EARL OF KIMBERLEY: Before the House adjourns, I would ask the noble Marquess if he can tell us at what period he intends to move the adjournment of the House for the Easter holidays, and for how long?
  THE PRIME MINISTER: I believe the House must sit till Monday for the purpose of receiving money Bills, to which the Royal Assent will be necessary. From Monday, three weeks, I believe, is the usual time, according to precedent.

  SUPREME COURT (APPEALS) BILL [H.L.]
  To be read second time To-morrow.
  Lea Bridge District Gas Bill [H.L.]
  Queen's Ferry Bridge Bill [H.L.]
  Nene Valley Water Bill [H.L.]
  St. Neot's Water Bill [H.L.]
  Report from the Committee of Selection, That the Earl of Camperdown be proposed to the House as a member of the Select Committee in the place of the Earl of Derby; and that the Earl of Camperdown be Chairman of the said Committee; read, and agreed to.
  House adjourned at fifty-five minutes after Four of the clock.