Lords Sitting of 2 March 1899

Preamble
THE LORD CHANCELLOR THE LORD CHANCELLOR took his seat on the Woolsack at Four of the clock.

PRIVATE BILL BUSINESS.
THE LORD CHANCELLOR THE LORD CHANCELLOR acquainted the House that the Clerk of the Parliaments had laid upon the Table the Certificate from the Examiners that the Standing Orders applicable to the following Bill have been complied with:
Buenos Ayres and Pacific Railway Company.
Also the Certificate that the further Standing Orders applicable to the following Bill have been complied with:
Weston-super-Mare Grand Pier [H.L.]
And also the Certificate that the Standing Orders applicable to the following Bill hare not been complied with:
St. Marylebone Vestry Electric Lighting.
The same were ordered to the on the Table.

PRIVATE BILL BUSINESS.
  LONDON AND SOUTH-WESTERN RAILWAY BILL [H.L.]
  Report of Her Majesty's Attorney-General received, and ordered to the on the Table.
  SURREY COMMERCIAL DOCKS BILL. [H.L.]
  To be read the second time on Monday the 13th instant.
  LIVERPOOL OVERHEAD RAILWAY BILL [H.L.]
  Read second time.
  SOUTH HANTS WATER BILL [H.L.]
  Read second time (according to order).
  MUTRKIRK, MAUCHLINE AND DALMELLINGTON RAILWAY BILL [H.L.]
  Second Reading (which stands appointed for this day) put off to Monday next.

  NORFOLK ESTUARY BILL [H.L.]
  Committed.
  Birmingham, North Warwickshire, and Stratford-upon-Avon Railway Bill [H.L.]
  Great Northern Railway Bill [H.L.]
  Great Yarmouth Water Bill [H.L.]
  Greenock and Port Glasgow Tramways Bill [H.L.]
  Hastings and St. Leonard's Gas Bill [H.L.]
  Knott End Railway Bill [H.L.]
  Lea Bridge District Gas Bill [H.L.]
  Loughborough Gas Bill [H.L.]
  Lowestoft Water and Gas Bill [H.L.]
  North-Eastern Railway Bill [H.L.]
  Port Talbot Railway and Docks Bill [H.L.]
  Rushden and Higham Ferrers District Gas Bill [H.L.]
  St. Neot's Water Bill [H.L.]
  Yeadon and Guiseley Gas Bill [H.L.]
  Rochdale Canal Bill [H.L.]
  St. Alban's Gas Bill [H.L.]
  Aberdeen Joint Passenger Station Bill [H.L.]
  Bexhill and St.Leonard s Tramroads Bill [H.L.]
  Bristol Gas Bill [H.L.]
  Great Eastern Railway (General Powers Bill [H.L.]
  Committed: the Committees to be proposed by the Committee of Selection.

RETURNS, REPORTS, ETC.

  TRADE REPORTS.
  I. Annual Series: No. 2208. Mexico (Yutacan).
  II. Miscellaneous Series: No. 497. Germany (Brown coal mining in the Rhineland).
  Presented (by Command) and ordered to the on the Table.

  EMIGRATION STATISTICS (IRELAND).
  Report and tables for the year 1898; Presented (by Command) and ordered to the on the Table.

  UNIVERSITIES (SCOTLAND) ACT, 1889.
  Annual Report by the University Court of the University of Glasgow to the Secretary for Scotland, for the year 1897ߝ98.
  Laid before the House (pursuant to Act), and ordered to the on the Table.

  FRIENDLY SOCIETIES (INDUSTRIAL AND PROVIDENT SOCIETIES AND TRADE UNIONS).
  Reports of the Chief Registrar of Friendly Societies for 1898.
  Laid before the House (pursuant to Act), and ordered to the on the Table.

  UNIVERSITIES OF OXFORD AND CAMBRIDGE ACT, 1877.
  1. Statutes made by the Governing Body of Trinity College, Cambridge, on 22nd October 1898, altering and amending certain Statutes of the College.
  2. Statutes made by the Governing Body of St. John's College, Cambridge, on 28th October 1898, amending Statutes 43 and 54 of the College Statutes.
  Laid before the House (pursuant to Act), and to be printed. (No. 15.)

PETITIONS.
  VACCINATION ACT, 1898.
  Petitions for repeal of; of the Guardians of the Poor of Newport Pagnell Union—and of Helston Union—Read, and ordered to the on the Table.
  MUNICIPAL TRADING.
  Petitions that a Committee be appointed to define the extent to which municipal trading should be sanctioned by Parliament; of the Bristol Master Builders' Association—and of the Hull Iron Trades Employers' Association—Read, and ordered to the on the Table.
  HARBOUR AND DOCK (BRISTOL, ETC.) RATES BILL.
  THE EARL OF WEMYSS: My Lords, I have some petitions to present upon which I desire to say just a few words in explanation. They are petitions from the following bodies: The Chamber of Shipping of the United Kingdom, the General Shipping Society of London, the British Steamship Owners' Association of Sunderland, the Standard Steamship Protection and Indemnity Association of London, the United Kingdom Mutual Steamship Assurance Association of London, the Cardiff Incorporated Shipowners' Association, the Leith Shipowners' Society, the North of England Steamship Ownership Association, and the London Steamship Mutual Insurance Association. All these petitions, my Lords, are directed against the Harbour and Dock (Bristol, etc.) Rates Bill, the Second Reading of which, is fixed for Monday next. These petitions say that the tonnage at the present time is registered in a certain way under the Merchant Shipping Act, 1894, and that this Bill proposes, in the supposed interests of these docks, to alter the system of registration by a private Bill. The petitioners hold—and I think it is a sound principle—that a system established under a public Bill ought not to be disestablished by a private Bill. Therefore it is, my Lords, that these petitions are presented to this House, and I hope my noble Friend the able and efficient Chairman of Committees will have his attention directed to the 3rd clause of these Bills.
NEW BILL.
  PARISH CHURCHES (SCOTLAND) BILL [H.L.]
  A Bill to confer additional powers on the Court of Teinds in Scotland, with reference to the alteration of the sites of parish churches, and of the districts atached, and with reference to collegiate charges—Was presented by the Lord Balfour; read the first time: and to be printed. (No. 16.)

DEATH OF LORD HERSCHELL.
THE PRIME MINISTER AND SECRETARY OF STATE FOR FOREIGN AFFAIRS (The Marquess of SALISBURY): My Lords, before we commence business, I cannot but say a few words as to the great loss which this House and the country have sustained by the lamentable death of Lord Herschell yesterday. It is very pathetic from many points of view. He died suddenly, apart from all he loved, 3,000 miles away, in a foreign capital, when the work in which he was deeply interested, and which he was carrying to a successful conclusion, was only half finished. His death is in any sense and from any point of view a lamentable event to think of. But it touches us more deeply. It is a loss of a very great public servant, of a very eminent public man. He was connected at the time of his death with the service of his country, in that particular branch of the service with which, for the moment, I have the honour to be connected, and that is my excuse for perhaps taking out of the hands of those who have a better title, especially the noble Earl opposite, or the noble Earl on the Woolsack, the opportunity of first paying their tribute to his worth. My Lords, to us, of course, the loss is almost irreparable. His many peculiar abilities enabled him to fill a place which others could not fill. He enjoyed the width and grasp of a statesmanlike mind, with the profound training of a brilliant lawyer, and the habits
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and knowledge of one who was not unacquainted with diplomatic traditions, and who practised them with a singular success. His great popularity, especially his popularity with our kindred race on the other side of the Atlantic, pointed him out for the duties which he was so willing, at great sacrifice and with great labour, to undertake, and we shall hardly supply his place. Of his other distinguished qualities it is hardly for me to speak in a House of so many lawyers. I need not point out his qualities as one of the most remarkable lawyers of the day, whose decisions men in the future will look back upon with pride. I need not tell your Lordships, above all, of his appearances in this House, of his courtesy in debate, of his dialectical skill, of his vast erudition, and of the great influence which he exercised alike upon friends and foes. I can only express what all your Lordships will be quick to follow me in expressing—our deep sense of the loss we have sustained, and our sense that we have parted from, a bright intellect, from a personal and fascinating influence, to which all of us for many years will look back as a cherished memory.
THE EARL OF KIMBERLEY: Your Lordships will easily understand that I can scarcely find words in which to express the deep sorrow which I feel at the loss of Lord Herschell. I have lost in him a personal friend, with whom I have been for many years in most intimate connection; but we have lost, as the noble Marquess has well pointed out, something more. We have lost a man who enjoyed, I think, the singular position of being alike respected and esteemed by political friends and foes. As to his great legal abilities, as the noble Marquess has said, I also am not one who can say anything. His legal attainments were no doubt high; but I can speak of his political eminence, and I can say with truth, having sat with him in more than one Cabinet, that a wiser, more straightforward, more fearless, more honest adviser, a more high-minded servant the Crown never possessed. Another quality he had which is unusual: he was singularly a many-sided man. He was not only a great lawyer, but, as the noble Marquess has pointed out, he was able to undertake

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the most difficult diplomatic employment with great ability and success. Whatever he touched he showed he was capable of touching, and that can be said of very few men. There may have been in particular walks of life men more eminent, more able, more brilliant than Lord Herschell, but I think none of us remember, and few will be able to recollect, a man who was more many-sided and more successful in the variety of walks of politics and statesmanship In this House especially, we, on this side, of course, have suffered an irreparable loss, but I am sure I speak the feelings of all who hear me when I say the House itself has sustained a most painful and irreparable loss. He was an adviser of the House of the greatest value, he was one of those who desired to uphold the honour and authority of this House, and I am sure every one of your Lordships will share the deep sorrow which in very imperfect words I have endeavoured to express.
THE LORD CHANCELLOR (The Earl of HALSBURY): Not only on my own behalf, but on behalf of the profession which for the moment I represent, I desire to associate myself with what has been well and justly said of our lamented Friend, Lord Herschell. No one can have been associated with him so long as I have been, and as some of your Lordships have been, in the study and administration of the law, without recognising in him a profound and most able lawyer—a man with a degree of energy and inexhaustible industry which made him master of any subject to which he applied himself. My personal relations with Lord Herschell go back many years, before either of us was a Member of this House. Although we have been opposed in contests in the courts, and although we have taken different views on public questions, I think I can say—indeed, I know I can say—nothing has ever occurred to mar the personal friendship that existed between us. Even the lay Members of your Lordships' House will be able to recognise the great loss which the judicial strength of the country has sustained, and I am quite sure that those who have known him in this country, or any other country, recognise the fact that this country is the poorer for the loss of a most able and upright judge, the loss
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of one who was probably, in the best sense of the word, a law reformer, and who devoted his best energies to putting right in the law whatever was wrong. I am sure it will also be recognised, not only in this country, but throughout the English-speaking race, that we have lost a jurist whose counsels were most valuable.
*LORD JAMES OF HEREFORD: My Lords, I hope you will grant me the privilege of adding a few words to the eloquent tributes that have been paid to Lord Herschell's memory. I do not make that request for the purpose of telling you of a sincere friendship of 30 years' duration, or with the object of swelling the expressions of regret for the irreparable loss this House has sustained. But my claim to address you is founded on the circumstance that I had opportunities of judging of Lord Herschell's great qualities which few men had. We served as Law Officers of the Crown together for some five years. We served under circumstances of a true friendship. Our labours were ever jointly done, and my paramount recollection of that colleagueship is that Lord Herschell ever insisted on bearing the greater share of those labours, and in always striving that I should reap the heavier harvest of the reward. During that period I learned to know how great was the area of his knowledge, how strong and discerning were his perceptive faculties, and with what a true and just judgment he always determined every question that came before him. This House may thank him for his labours, and friends may regret him, but the whole nation ought to recognise how well he deserved their thanks. In almost one of the last interviews I had with Lord Herschell he told me of the claim that had been made upon his services by the Prime Minister to represent this country under circumstances of great delicacy. At the same time, he told me of his system being overwrought, and how weary and worn he was by the constant mental labour of many years, and how he had been looking forward to a long period of rest and repose with those who were very near and dear to him; but he turned aside from that prospect of restoration to health, and cast, I believe, not one lingering look upon it, in order that he might go far away to do his duty

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to his country, and in its performance he has died. Under the circumstances, surely, his friends may be proud of the recollection of the true friendship they enjoyed with him, and not only your Lordships, but the whole country, ought to be grateful to him for the services which, as a good and faithful citizen, he was ever ready to render to his country.

TELEGRAPH (CHANNEL ISLANDS) BILL.
THE POSTMASTER-GENERAL (The Duke of NORFOLK): My Lords, I beg to move the Second Reading of this Bill, which is identical with the Bill I introduced last year, but which, for want of time, was unable to be passed. The object of the Bill is to introduce and make effective in the Channel Islands the provisions for the protection of the Postmaster-General's telegraphs which are in force in other parts of the United Kingdom. The Bill has been drawn up in conjunction with the authorities of the Channel Islands, and I hope your Lordships will give it a Second Reading.
Question put.
Bill read a second time, and committed to a Committee of the whole House on Monday next.

IRISH LAND COMMISSION.
The following Notice stood on the Paper in the name of Viscount TEMPLETONߞ
To ask Her Majesty's Government—

1. Whether Patrick Markey purchased In 1889, for £180, a farm of 10a. 0r. 10p. held under the Earl of Gosford at the yearly rent of £9 4s. 8d., the poor law valuation being £9 10s.; and whether, in 1897, the Irish Land Commission on rehearing reduced the rent to £6 10s., although no improvements were claimed by the tenant or allowed for by the Court?

2. Whether Mr. Justice Bewley, in announcing this decision, laid it down as the law that a deduction should be made on account of what he described as "the occupation interest" of the
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tenant, although the two other members of the Court who had heard the case, one of whom, though a barrister, has no legal status as a member of the Court, and the other is a layman, dissented from the decision of the Judicial Commission, but concurred with him as to the amount of reduction?

3. Whether it has been recently decided by the Court of Appeal in Ireland in other cases that Mr. Justice Bewley's view of the law as decided in Markey's case was erroneous, and that any deductions for "occupation interest" is illegal, and having regard to the fact that Markey purchased the holding so recently for £180, and that it is assessed for income-tax under Schedules A. and B. at the annual value of £12 13s. 4d., has not the Land Commission acted in violation of the law in reducing the rent to £6 10s.?

4. Whether any, and what, steps are intended to be taken as to the illegal deductions that have been made by the Land Commission in the past, and to prevent such a possibility in the future?

VISCOUNT TEMPLETOWN: My Lords, the representative of Her Majesty's Government who would, in the ordinary course o*f things, answer this Question, has asked me to postpone it for a few days. With the permission, of the House, I desire to do so.
THE EARL or DENBIGH: My Lords, I ask the noble Viscount to postpone his Question owing to the difficulty of obtaining an answer from the Land Commission. I cannot help remarking, however, that a certain amount of surprise was expressed at the noble discount's third Question, and at the fact of his having apparently thought that the Executive could in any way express an opinion upon the judgment of the Land Court or of any other court.
Question, by leave, postponed.
House adjourned at forty-five minutes after Four o'clock, till To-morrow, half-past Ten o'clock.