HL Deb 08 June 1899 vol 72 cc599-610

Moved— That Standing Order No. XXI. be considered in order to its being suspended for this day's sitting."—(The Marquess of Salisbury.)

On Question, agreed to, and ordered accordingly.

Moved— That the consideration of the Queen's Message and the Motion for according the thanks of this House to the forces engaged in the recent operations in the Soudan have precedence of the Orders of the Day."—(The Marquess of Salisbury.)

On Question, agreed to, and ordered accordingly.

THE PRIME MINISTER AND SECRETARY OF STATE FOR FOREIGN AFFAIRS (the MARQUESS OF SALISBURY)

My Lords, the first motion which I have to submit to you is that Her Majesty's Gracious Message with reference to Lord Kitchener of Khartoum be taken into consideration. It does not appear to me that any arguments will be needed to commend this course to your Lordships. Lord Kitchener has received from Her Majesty the high honour of a seat in this House, in recognition of his great achievements, and the honour that has been paid to him throughout the length and breadth of the land is a sufficient proof that the people of this country entirely associate themselves with the action of Her Majesty in conferring that honour upon him. But, if that honour was to be paid, it is in accordance with precedent, and I think obviously suitable and proper, that some means should be provided for maintaining the dignity thus conferred. It has been done so frequently, and, so far as this House is concerned, so entirely without protest or without difference of opinion, that I think I may, without further preface, move that this House will be ready to concur with the other House of Parliament in making a provision in accordance with the terms of Her Majesty's Gracious Message.

THE EARL OF KIMBERLEY

My Lords, I need scarcely assure your Lordships that I most cordially concur in the motion that has been made by the noble Marquess opposite, and I shall follow his example in not, on this occasion, attempting to pronounce a eulogy on the conduct of Lord Kitchener, because we have all of us, I think, repeatedly expressed our opinion very strongly on the subject, and I do not suppose that upon the main question of the reward which is proposed to be conferred on Lord Kitchener there will be any difference of opinion. But, while I say that, I feel myself compelled to make an allusion to one discordant note, and that is the feeling which has been excited by the manner in which the body of the Mahdi was disposed of. For my part I wish to say, and I am sure I shall have the sympathy of everyone here present, that I have no feeling whatsoever specially for the Mahdi. On the contrary, I conceive as wholly pernicious his appearance as a false prophet; and if I make any remarks on this subject, it is only upon the general feeling which I believe to be shared by most people, if not by all, that it is necessary to be extremely careful in dealing with any question which affects the dead. We all, I think, feel that with the dead we can have no war; but in the present circumstances it appears to have been thought—and I am not at all inclined to contest the opinion of those who were on the spot, and were best able to form an opinion—that it was absolutely necessary to remove the tomb where the Mahdi had been interred, to prevent the possibility of its becoming afterwards a focus of discontent and a rallying point for any who might still feel any sympathy with the Mahdi and his disciples. It is not upon that ground that I make the observation which I feel compelled to make on this occasion. But I think that, after making every allowance for the reasons to which I have alluded, it is a matter for some regret that the way in which the remains of the Mahdi were disposed of was not entirely consonant with our feelings with regard to the disposal of the dead. It is a subject which is very distasteful to me to allude to, and I am not at all disposed to pursue it on this occasion. Neither do I wish to be supposed to be strongly condemning the proceedings which were sanctioned by the distinguished officer whose services we all recognise. But I felt it to be my duty, my painful duty, to make this simple observation: and, after saying that, I repeat that, notwithstanding the feelings which I entertain, in common with a good many other people, on this particular subject, I do most cordially and most heartily concur in any honour we can bestow on Lord Kitchener on this occasion. I therefore willingly support the motion of the noble Marquess.

THE MARQUESS OF SALISBURY

My Lords, perhaps it would be proper that I should make one or two remarks in reference to the observations which have fallen from the noble Earl, anal which were distinguished by great moderation and good taste. So far as Lord Kitchener was responsible for what was done, I am unable to agree with the noble Earl. I believe that certain steps had to be taken with a view to the possibility of the revival of a fanatical feeling in the country. There is reason to believe that what Lord Kitchener ordered to be done was not quite rightly interpreted by those who carried it out, and he was at a distance when it was carried out. Into that question I need not enter, but I would entreat the House to remember that these questions, however deeply we feel upon them, are not questions of ethics; they are not even questions of policy; they are questions of taste, and taste varies in different countries at different times. There have been occasions even in this country when bodies have been dug up, to show opinions entertained at the time, and in a neighbouring country it has been still more abundantly done. If Lord Kitchener, when he was thinking, as he was bound to think, of the opinions of the vast populations that surrounded him, forgot for the moment the opinions that might prevail in London, we cannot blame him. I believe he did what he thought was necessary on the occasion for destroying this baneful superstition, and in that object at least we all of us must heartily sympathise.

Her Majesty's most gracious Message of Friday last considered (according to order):Then an humble Address of thanks and concurrence ordered nemine dissentiente to be presented to Her Majesty thereupon The said Address to be presented to Her Majesty by the Lords with White Staves.

THE MARQUESS OF SALISBURY

My Lords, I now have to propose to you a motion which I believe is in accordance with strict precedent on similar occasions, and which 1 am sure has never been more heartily adopted than it will be on the present occasion. If I may be permitted, I will read the motion to the House. Its terms are as follow: That the thanks of this House be given to Major-General Lord Kitchener of Khartoum, G.C.B., K.C.M.G., for the distinguished skill and ability with which he planned and conducted the Culminated in the Battle of 1896–97–98, which culminated in the Battle of Omdurman, the capture of Khartoum, and the overthrow of the power of the Khalifa; That the thanks of this House he given to— Major-General Sir A. Hunter, K. C. B., D.S.O.; Major-General Sir H. M. L. Bundle, K.C.B., Major-General Sir W. F. Gatacre, K.C.B., D.S.O.; Major-General the Hon. N. G. Lyttelton, C.B.; Major-General A. G. Wauchope, C.B., C. M. G.; Major and Brevet Colonel Sir F. R. Wingate, K.C.M.G., C.B., D.S.O., R.A.; Lieutenant-Colonel and Brevet Colonel C. J. Long, R.A.; Major and Brevet Colonel. J. G. Maxwell, D. S. O.; Major and Brevet Colonel H. A. Macdonald, D. S.O.; Lieutenant-Colonel D. F. Lewis, C.B.; Major and Brevet Lieutenant-Colonel J. Collinson, C.B.; Commander C. R. Keppel, C.B., D.S.O., R.N.; and to the other Officers and Warrant Officers of the Navy, the British and the Egyptian Army, and the Royal Marines, for the energy and gallantry with which they executed the services which they were called upon to perform; That this House doth acknowledge and highly approve the gallantry, discipline, and good conduct displayed by the Petty Officers, Non-commissioned Officers, and Men of the Navy, the British and the Egyptian Army, and Royal Marines during the campaign; That the thanks of this House be given to Lieutenant-General Sir Francis Grenfell, G.C.B., G.C.M.G., for the support and assistance which he afforded to the forces employed in the operations in the Soudan; That this House doth acknowledge, with admiration, the distinguished valour, devotion, and conduct of those other Officers and Men who have perished during the campaign in the Soudan in the service of their country, and feels deep sympathy with their relatives and friends. My Lords, some fourteen years ago, about this time of the year, standing in this place, I had to move a similar vote of thanks to General Viscount Wolseley and the officers and men who had served with him in the Egyptian campaign. But the circumstances then were very different. It was necessary to point out and to dwell upon the fact that great merit and devotion had been shown by the British officers and men in carrying out the duties which were assigned to them, though the result of their efforts was not success. It was no blame of theirs that the result was not success; it was a combination of circumstances which it is now unnecessary to unravel. But we felt that the want of success then was no detraction to the great merits they had shown, or to the gratitude which their services would demand and receive from the country. Now we have a different task to perform. We have, indeed, to bring before you equal merit, equal valour, equal skill and tenacity, but the whole has been crowned with a splendid success. Yet, let us not forget that, to the exertions of Lord Wolseley, and those who served under him in two Egyptian campaigns, it is due that the door was opened to the subsequent operations of which Lord Kitchener was the head, and that the brilliant campaigns—brilliant, though one of them was unsuccessful—with which Lord Wolseley was associated prepared the way for Lord Kitchener, and may claim a part of the lustre which has been shed upon his head. As the noble Earl has justly said, this is a worn-out subject. We have all listened to, and taken part in repeating, the praises which are due to the Sirdar, and, as those praises have been echoed and thoroughly accepted by his countrymen, there is now little more to be said. He will remain a striking figure, not only adorned by the valour and patriotism which all successful generals can show, but with the most extraordinary combination of calculation, of strategy, of statesmanship, which it has ever fallen to any general in those circumstances to display. His means were limited. The grotesque financial arrangements under which the Egyptian Exchequer lives prevented him from transgressing a very modest limit in the expenditure he was authorised to incur. He had all the difficulties to a certain extent—the unknown and untried difficulties—attaching to a campaign whose objective was a city which no white army had ever visited before, and he was fighting with an enemy vastly superior in numbers to his own forces, animated by a fanaticism which gives more powerful impulse for warlike qualities than probably any other, however high the motive, by which soldiers can be actuated. He had before him natural difficulties of a character which made it uncertain how far it would be within his means to overcome them, and with those difficulties he succeeded in winning a brilliant though not bloodless battle, but a battle which shattered in one moment the evil power that for so many years had brooded over those districts of Africa. It was a very wonderful achievement; but, as I say, he was guided by the knowledge which others who had gone before him had gained, and he was not limited in point of time, as we know was the case with the last expedition. He took exactly the time that was necessary for his work, he made precisely the preparations which that work required, he expended upon it exactly the military strength which it demanded, and his victory came out with absolute accuracy, like the answer to a scientific calculation. I am glad that in making this motion I am not to speak of Lord Kitchener's merits alone. No doubt they were enormous, transcendent, and they have been fully recognised by his Sovereign and by his countrymen; but there is in all warlike history too much tendency to attach the whole merit of every campaign entirely to the leader by whom it was won. In this case he had singular assistance. The British troops, upon whose strength and steadfastness some unwise persons had cast doubt, showed that never in their history were they so stout and vigorous, even in the presence of the most formidable foe. He was supported to an unprecedented extent by the resources of science. The gunboats, which he himself largely designed, and which were conducted with great gallantry and skill, contributed no small amount to the victory; and the construction of the railway, in the circumstances under winch it was undertaken, was a marvellous effort of individual energy and skill on the part of the well-known engineer who undertook it, and also shows to what a lofty point the material and scientific progress of English industry has reached. These were all very remarkable circumstances. Perhaps I am inclined to attach to Lieutenant Girouard's work a very conspicuous position among these great achievements but to my mind that which was most wonderful of all was the brilliant and unfailing conduct of the Egyptian troops. I say this because I can remember the debates we used to have many years ago about the impossibility of inducing them to undertake the slightest amount of military exertion or even face the smallest warlike risk. It is one of the worst circumstances we have to lament in connection with these wars. I do not see my noble friend Lord Northbrook in his place, but I remember he used a phrase at which we rather laughed at the time, but which was a very prudent remark. He told its that the Egyptian troops were magnificent soldiers if only they would stand. That very lamentable defect ruined all their other qualities. When the enemy came upon them they did not even resist. They threw away their weapons and allowed themselves to be slaughtered without resistance. It was a fearful condition of things, but the wonderful thing is that proper training, proper government, fair consideration, and great military skill, exercised by British officers, have made those men who were mere sheep equal to any native troops in the world; they have given them a strength of discipline, an absolute trust in their officers, which has made their conduct on the field of battle splendid to behold. Therefore I am glad that this vote of thanks includes General Grenfell, because it is very largely to his exertions and his guidance that this great reform in the character of the Egyptian soldiers is due. We ought not, while we exult in the victory achieved, to forget by how much patient labour and how much skilful training he brought the Egyptian troops up to the point where they could make to us the return—the splendid return—they have made. I will not, my Lords, trouble you further, but I will only just notice these two things. This campaign—I do not want to touch any question of policy—will, I believe, by its result largely increase British fame and influence all over the world, and largely strengthen the outworks of our Empire. This result has been gained by the exercise, in a very unusual and conspicuous degree, of two of the qualities by which we believe our race is adorned, and which largely contributed to the success and power we have achieved. The first is the great industrial progress, the enormous power over the forces of nature, which we have used for commercial purposes and improved year by year, but which now, to an extent never done before, we have shown to have been one of the most potent weapons that a skilful general can wield. The other is that it has brought out that quality which is the real secret of the domination of this country over such vast millions of uncultivated people. Our officers have the power—not merely one or two men, but almost all our officers either in India or in Egypt—to an extent which, I think, has never yet been given to any race in the world, of inducing men of a lower race to attach themselves absolutely to their officers who govern them, to repose in them the most complete con- fidence and trust, to obey them without question, and to follow them into any danger. It is this splendid influence of often a handful of officers over vast masses of men of other races, which has enabled us to rear up that vast empire, so far out of proportion to the numerical strength which we can bring to support it, but which we have been able to make and to defend by the strength of those vast multitudes of other races whom our officers have had this singular and marvellous power of governing, training, and attaching. I do not think it has ever been shown in a more distinguished form than in the force, cohesion, and excellence they have given to the Egyptian troops; but they have only produced qualities which they have always shown, and which they show no signs of losing—qualities which have erected, and which, I trust, will maintain for many generations yet to come, the power and influence of the Empire of the Queen.

THE EARL OF KIM BERLEY

My Lords, the noble Marquess, in the extremely interesting speech which we have just listened to, has left me very little to say. I concur with all that he has said, but I am most struck with the latter part of his speech. I feel, as he does, that what we have most reason to be proud of is the manner in which we have reorganised, not only the Government, but I might almost say the people of Egypt. It seems to me that this is a subject which we do well to dwell upon, because the strength and the safety of our Empire—I mean outside this country—over the vast numbers of, as we regard them, less civilised peoples, rests entirely, I may say, upon the moral qualities possessed by those who lead them. I may perhaps be allowed to wander slightly from the immediate subject of our discussion when I mention the name of Lord Cromer. It is only clue to Lord Cromer—though on an occasion like this he could not, of course, be included in the Vote which we are about to pass—to say that it has been by his statesmanlike conduct, his indefatigable industry, his calm, quiet, patient perseverance, that the organisation of Egypt as we now see it has been attained. Without that I do not think even the abilities of Lord Kitchener could have produced the results which we are celebrating to-day. The striking conclusion at which we have been able to arrive is that by means of these admirable young officers—for many of them are very young officers—we are able to make use of large populations which, perhaps, without our leading would never have attained to that warlike demeanour which the noble Marquess has so justly commended in the Egyptians. I am tempted to repeat a very small but striking anecdote told to me not long ago which referred to one of our great fights in India during the time of the Mutiny. An old officer told me the story. During a very hot engagement a young English officer was killed, and the commanding officer remarked to a Sikh subardar—a non-commissioned officer of high rank—how deeply he regretted the loss of this officer, and added: "But even that loss we can well sustain when we have men like you who we know can be trusted in all circumstances." "Yes," was the reply, "that may be; we can fight, and fight well, but we want your young men to lead us." That has been the secret of our success. In celebrating what Lord Kitchener has achieved, the noble Marquess has justly dwelt upon the extraordinary skill with which he made all the preparations which ended in his brilliant achievement; and it seems to me that that is perhaps the most remarkable part of the whole achievement. I believe, myself, that those who dwell upon the history of great military operations will find in the past history of the world that the greatest mid most successful commanders have been those who have known best the secret of long, careful, and complete preparation before they ventured on the great campaigns which they succeeded in. That is the example which Lord Kitchener has shown to us, and it is for that he well deserves the special honour which we bestow upon him to-night. But, as the noble Marquess says, it is not the leader only; and it is remarkable to reflect that the power and influence of our officers should have so transformed the Egyptian troops that they were worthy to stand by the side of British soldiers. One cannot help making this reflection. I suppose that all of us in the abstract would desire to avoid war; we all of us desire peace; but there are circumstances in which I believe that war may even elevate a nation; and in this present instance I believe it has been a matter of great good fortune to the Egyptian people that the occasion has arisen where they have been able to show that they are capable of standing firmly before the enemy, because, whatever we may say, the greatness of nations will always rest on their being ready and willing to face great dangers when they are threatened; and the fact that the Egyptians have shown these qualities against their enemies must give us a much higher opinion of them, and must tend not only to raise their own opinion of themselves, but to give them a confidence which probably nothing else would ever impart to them. My Lords, I really should be guilty of wasting your time if I were to attempt to repeat what the noble Marquess has so well said. All I will add is this: I do not believe that there is a more pleasing and a more honourable task for Parliament, representing the nation, to perform, than that it should meet to offer a grateful tribute of admiration to those of our countrymen who in distant lands face great dangers and achieve great successes for the Empire to which we belong.

Resolved,nemine dissentiente, That the thanks of this House be given to Major-General Lord Kitchener of Khartoum, G.C.B., K.C.M.G., for the distinguished skill and ability with which he planned and conducted the campaign on the Nile of 1896–97–98, which culminated in the battle of Omdurman, the capture of Khartoum, and the overthrow of the power of the Khalifa.

That the thanks of this House he given to—

Major-General Sir A. Hunter, K.C.B., D.S.O.;

Major-General Sir H. M. L. Rundle, K.C.B., D.5.0.;

Major-General Sir W. F. Gatacre, K.C.B., D.S.O.;

Major-General the Hon. N. G. Lyttelton, C.B.;

Major-General A. G. Wauchope, C.B., C.M.G.;

Major and Brevet Colonel Sir F. R. Wingate, K.C.M.G., C.B., D.S.0., R.A.;

Lieutenant-Colonel and Brevet Colonel C. J. Long, R.A.;

Major and Brevet Colonel J. G. Maxwell, D.S.O.;

Major and Brevet Colonel H. A. Macdonald, D.S.O.;

Lieutenant-Colonel D. F. Lewis, C.B.;

Major and Brevet Lieutenant-Colonel J. Collinson, C.B.;

Commander C. R. Keppel, C.B., D.S.O., R.N.;

and to the other Officers and Warrant Officers of the Navy, the British and the Egyptian Army, and the Royal Marines, for the energy and gallantry with which they executed the services which they were called upon to perform;

That this House doth acknowledge and highly approve the gallantry, discipline, and good conduct displayed by the Petty Officers, Non-commissioned Officers, and Men of the Navy, the British and the Egyptian Army, and Royal Marines during the campaign;

That the thanks of this House be given to Lieutenant-General Sir Francis Grenfell, G.C.B., G.C.M.G., for the support and assistance which he afforded to the forces employed in the operations in the Soudan;

That this House doth acknowledge, with admiration, the distinguished valour, devotion, and conduct of those other Officers and Men who have perished during the campaign in the Soudan in the service of their country, and feels deep sympathy with their relatives and friends;

Ordered that the Lord Chancellor do communicate the said resolutions to General Lord Kitchener of Khartoum and to Lieutenant-General Sir Francis Grenfell, and that General Lord Kitchener of Khartoum be requested by the Lord Chancellor to communicate the same to the several other officers referred to therein.