Lords Sitting of 8 June 1899

NEW PEER.
The Lord Monson—Sat first in Parliament after the death of brother.
PRIVATE BILL BUSINESS.
  OWENS COLLEGE, MANCHESTER, BILL [Lords].
  Report of Her Majesty's Attorney-General received, and ordered to lie on the Table.
  NORTH-WEST LONDON RAILWAY BILL.
  Committee to meet on Monday next.
  AYR BURGH BILL.
  Committee to meet on Thursday next.
  BROOKE'S PARK (LONDONDERRY) BILL.
  Committed for Tuesday next.
  NOTTINGHAM CORPORATION BILL.
  The Chairman of Committees informed the House that the opposition to the Bill was withdrawn; the order made on the 28th of April last discharged; and Bill committed.
  CAMBRIDGE UNIVERSITY AND TOWN GAS BILL [Lords].
  Commons Amendments considered, and agreed to.
  ST. ALBANS GAS BILL [Lords].
  Commons Amendments considered, and agreed to.
  HULL, BARNSLEY, AND WEST RIDING JUNCTION RAILWAY AND DOCK BILL [Lords.]
  Commons Amendments considered, and agreed to.

  WOLVERRHAMPTON TRAMWAYS BILL [Lords].
  Report from the Select Committee: That the Committee had not proceeded with the consideration of the Bill, no parties having appeared in opposition
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  thereto; read, and ordered to lie on the Table: The orders made on the 13th of March and Tuesday last discharged; and Bill committed.

  MARYPORT HARBOUR BILL [Lords].
  Report from the Select Committee: That it is not expedient to proceed further with the Bill; read, and ordered to lie on the Table.
  BUENOS AYRES AND PACIFIC RAILWAY COMPANY BILL [Lords].
  Reported with Amendments
  LISBURN TOWN COMMISSIONERS BILL.
  Reported with Amendments.
  LONDON, BRIGHTON, AND SOUTH-COAST RAILWAY (PENSIONS) BILL.
  Reported with Amendments.
  YORKE ESTATE BILL [Lords].
  Reported with Amendments.
  WEST MIDDLESEX WATER BILL.
  Read 2a, and committed: The Committee to be proposed by the Committee of Selection.
  AIRE AND CALDER NAVIGATION BILL.
  Read 2a, and committed: The Committee to be proposed by the Committee of Selection.
  CORK CORPORATION (FINANCE) BILL.
  Read 2a, and committed.
  EAST LONDON WATER BILL.
  Read 2a, and committed: The Committee to be proposed by the Committee of Selection.
  GREAT WESTERN AND GREAT CENTEAL RAILWAY COMPANIES BILL.
  Read 2a, and committed: The Committee to be proposed by the Committee of Selection.
  LONDON, BRIGHTON, AND SOUTH COAST RAILWAY (VARIOUS POWERS) BILL.
  Read 2a, and committed: The Committee to be proposed by the Committee of Selection.
  MANCHESTER CORPORATUON (GENERAL POWERS) BILL.
  Read 2a, and committed: The Committee to be proposed by the Committee of Selection.
  SOUTH STAFFORDSHIRE STIPENDIARY JUSTICE BILL.
  Read 2a, and committed.
  MILTON CREEK CONSERVANCY BILL.
  Read 2a, and committed.
  MILTON CREEK CONSERVANCY BILL.
  Read 2a, and committed: The Committee to be proposed by the Committee of Selection.
  NORTH PEMBROKESHIRE AND FISHGUARD RAILWAY BILL.
  Read 2a, and committed for Monday next.
  UXBRIDGE AND RICKMANSWOIITH RAILWAY BILL.
  Read 2a, and committed.
  OWEN'S COLLEGE, MANCHESTER BILL.
  Read 2a (according to order).
  GREAT GRIMSBY STREET TRAMWAYS BILL [Lords].
  Reading 3a; Amendments made; Bill passed, and sent to the Commons.
  LONDON AND NORTH-WESTERN RAILWAY (NEW RAILWAYS) BILL.
  Brought from the Commons; read 1a; and referred to the Examiners.
  ARBROATH CORPORATION GAS BILL [Lords].
  Returned from the Commons agreed to.
  KEW BRIDGE BILL [Lords].
  Returned from the Commons agreed to.

  BRYNMAWR AND WESTERN VALLEYS RAILWAY BILL.
  Report from the Committee of Selection, That the following Lords be proposed to the House to form the Select Committee for the consideration of the said Bills; (viz.)—

  M. Bristol,

  E. Bathurst,

  E. Camperdown (chairman),

  L. Seaton,

  L. Shute (V. Barrington):

  GAS ORDERS CONFIRMATION (No. 2) BILL [Lords].
  EDUCATION DEPARTMENT PROVISIONAL ORDER CONFIRMATION (LONDON) BILL [Lords].
  STOCKPORT CORPORATION WATER BILL.
  STOCKPORT DISTRICT WATER BELL.
  SCUNTHORPE URBAN DISTRICT GAS AND WATER BILL.
  GOOLE URBAN DISTRICT COUNCIL BILL.
  SOUTH-EASTERN AND LONDON, CHATHAM, AND DOVER RAILWAY COMPANIES BILL.

  SOUTH-EASTERN RAILWAY BILL.
  Agreed to; and the said Lords appointed accordingly: The Committee to meet on Tuesday next, at Eleven o'clock; and all petitions referred to the Committee, with leave to the petitioners praying to he heard by counsel against the Bills to he heard as desired, as also counsel for the Bills.
RETURNS, REPORTS, ETC.
  EDUCATION DEPARTMENT.
  Report to Committee of Council on Education of the proceedings of the Charity Commissioners for England and Wales under the Endowed Schools Acts, 1869–1889, for the year 1598.

  TRADE REPORTS (ANNUAL SERIES).
  No. 2282. Brazil (Bahia);
  No. 2283. France (Nice and District);
  No. 2284. Brazil (Rio de Janeiro);
  No. 2285. Denmark (Iceland);
  No. 2286. Turkey (Beirut and the coast of Syria).

  TREATY SERIES, No. 13 (1899).
  Accession of Japan to the International Union for the protection of literary and artistic works, 15th July, 1899.
  Forty-second Annual Report of the Trustees of the National Portrait Gallery (1899).

  SOUTH AFRICAN REPUBLIC.
  Further correspondence relating to the claim of the South African Republic for damages on account of the Jameson raid.

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  Presented (by command), and ordered to lie on the Table.

  SUPERANNUATION ACT, 1884.
  Treasury Minute, dated May 30, 1899, declaring that James Muspratt, auxiliary postman, London, Post Office Department, was appointed without a Civil Service certificate through inadvertence on the part of the head of his department. Laid before the House (pursuant to Act), and ordered to lie on the Table.
PETITION.
  AGRICULTURAL RATES ACT, 1896.
  Petition for amendment of; of Tithe owning Clergy of England and Wales, read, and ordered to lie on the Table.
QUESTIONS.

  SOUTH AFRICAN REPUBLIC—BLOEM-FONTEIN CONFERENCE.
  THE EARL OF CAMPERDOWN: My Lords, seeing the noble Earl, the Under Secretary for the Colonies, in his place, I wish to ask him whether he is in a position to give any information to the House with regard to the negotiations which have recently taken place between Sir Alfred Milner and the President of the Transvaal Republic.
  THE UNDER-SECRETARY OF STATE FOR THE COLONIES (THE EARL OF SELBORNE): My Lords, it is unfortunately true that the Conference has broken up without any result, and a new situation has thus been created. President Kruger has rejected the proposals for a settlement offered by Sir Alfred Milner, and the alternative suggested by him was considered by Sir Alfred Milner, and is now considered by Her Majesty's Government, as entirely inadequate. Her Majesty's Government have not vet received the Memorandum which Sir Alfred Milner informs them he has communicated to the Press on the subject of the Conference. Her Majesty's Government understood that this Memorandum would be telegraphed by Reuter verbatim to this country, but owing to some unexplained cause it has not yet arrived. I am therefore unable to say whether the statement
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  of the Government of the South African Republic, which has been published in the meantime, agrees in all respects with Sir Alfred Milner's account. Her Majesty's Government understand that the discussion turned mainly on the question of the franchise. Sir Alfred Milner was of opinion that the exclusion of the Uitlanders from representation was the root of the difficulties which has arisen, and that it was desirable, if possible, to come to an arrangement on this point before dealing with other questions in dispute between the two Governments. Sir Alfred Milner asked that the franchise should be given to all naturalised aliens who have resided five years in the country, with retrospective effect, and a fair amount of representation be conceded to the new population. President Kruger's proposal was substantially as follows: First, that aliens who were resident in the country before 1890 might naturalise and have the full franchise in two years' time; secondly, that the bulk of the Uitlanders might be naturalised in two years' time and might receive the franchise five years later—that is to say, in seven years from the present time. Between the period of naturalisation and that of receiving the franchise they would have to abandon their present nationality and would have no rights of nationality in the Transvaal. The President also attached to his offer certain conditions as to a pecuniary qualification, and the proof of possession of civil rights in the country from which the alien had come. It is not clear whether the further condition that a majority of two-thirds of the burghers would be required to confirm the possession of the franchise would be insisted upon. The President agreed that three members might be added to the representation of the mining districts, thus giving to them five members out of a total of 31. According to these proposals, no change whatever would take place for two years, and then only in the case of a small majority of the Uitlanders who had resided eleven years in the Transvaal. The whole of these proposals were made subject to an agreement by this country to refer all differences with the Transvaal to the arbitration of a foreign Power. Sir Alfred Milner considered these proposals as altogether inadequate, and further informed the President that Her Majesty's Government would not consent to the intervention of

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  any foreign Power in disputes between themselves and the Government of the South African Republic. The President also asked for the incorporation of Swaziland, but does not appear to have pressed this claim. He also demanded that the question of an indemnity for the Jameson raid should he settled, and was informed by Sir Alfred Milner that the British South Africa Company had agreed, in a despatch which was then on its way, that, while protesting against the amount of the claim sent in as altogether unreasonable, they would nevertheless consent to submit to arbitration the amount of damages for any material injury suffered by the Transvaal in consequence of the Jameson raid. The question of the dynamite monopoly was touched upon, but, in view of the failure to come to an agreement with regard to the franchise, it was reserved for further discussion between the two Governments. I have to add that the despatch in response to the petition of the Uitlanders to the Queen, which was sent to the High Commissioner before the invitation to the Conference was received from the President of the Orange Free State, and which has been held back pending the result of the Conference, will now be communicated to the Government of the South African Republic, and, as soon as they have received it, will be laid on the Table with other papers, including the petition of the Uitlanders to the Queen, and the counter-petition of other Uitlanders to the Government of the South African Republic.

  THE SOUDAN CAMPAIGN, 1898.
  Moved—
  "That Standing Order No. XXI. be considered in order to its being suspended for this day's sitting."—(The Marquess of Salisbury.)
  On Question, agreed to, and ordered accordingly.
  Moved—
  "That the consideration of the Queen's Message and the Motion for according the thanks of this House to the forces engaged in the recent operations in the Soudan have precedence of the Orders of the Day."—(The Marquess of Salisbury.)
  On Question, agreed to, and ordered accordingly.
  THE PRIME MINISTER AND SECRETARY OF STATE FOR FOREIGN AFFAIRS (the MARQUESS OF SALISBURY): My Lords, the first motion which I have to submit to you is that Her Majesty's Gracious Message with reference to Lord Kitchener of Khartoum be taken into consideration. It does not appear to me that any arguments will be needed to commend this course to your Lordships. Lord Kitchener has received from Her Majesty the high honour of a seat in this House, in recognition of his great achievements, and the honour that has been paid to him throughout the length and breadth of the land is a sufficient proof that the people of this country entirely associate themselves with the action of Her Majesty in conferring that honour upon him. But, if that honour was to be paid, it is in accordance with precedent, and I think obviously suitable and proper, that some means should be provided for maintaining the dignity thus conferred. It has been done so frequently, and, so far as this House is concerned, so entirely without protest or without difference of opinion, that I think I may, without further preface, move that this House will be ready to concur with the other House of Parliament in making a provision in accordance with the terms of Her Majesty's Gracious Message.
  THE EARL OF KIMBERLEY: My Lords, I need scarcely assure your Lordships that I most cordially concur in the motion that has been made by the noble Marquess opposite, and I shall follow his example in not, on this occasion, attempting to pronounce a eulogy on the conduct of Lord Kitchener, because we have all of us, I think, repeatedly expressed our opinion very strongly on the subject, and I do not suppose that upon the main question of the reward which is proposed to be conferred on Lord Kitchener there will be any difference of opinion. But, while I say that, I feel myself compelled to make an allusion to one discordant note, and that is the feeling which has been excited by the manner in which the body of the Mahdi was disposed of. For my part I wish to say, and I am sure I shall have the sympathy of everyone here present, that I have no feeling whatsoever specially for the Mahdi. On the contrary, I conceive as wholly pernicious his appearance as a false prophet; and if

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  I make any remarks on this subject, it is only upon the general feeling which I believe to be shared by most people, if not by all, that it is necessary to be extremely careful in dealing with any question which affects the dead. We all, I think, feel that with the dead we can have no war; but in the present circumstances it appears to have been thought—and I am not at all inclined to contest the opinion of those who were on the spot, and were best able to form an opinion—that it was absolutely necessary to remove the tomb where the Mahdi had been interred, to prevent the possibility of its becoming afterwards a focus of discontent and a rallying point for any who might still feel any sympathy with the Mahdi and his disciples. It is not upon that ground that I make the observation which I feel compelled to make on this occasion. But I think that, after making every allowance for the reasons to which I have alluded, it is a matter for some regret that the way in which the remains of the Mahdi were disposed of was not entirely consonant with our feelings with regard to the disposal of the dead. It is a subject which is very distasteful to me to allude to, and I am not at all disposed to pursue it on this occasion. Neither do I wish to be supposed to be strongly condemning the proceedings which were sanctioned by the distinguished officer whose services we all recognise. But I felt it to be my duty, my painful duty, to make this simple observation: and, after saying that, I repeat that, notwithstanding the feelings which I entertain, in common with a good many other people, on this particular subject, I do most cordially and most heartily concur in any honour we can bestow on Lord Kitchener on this occasion. I therefore willingly support the motion of the noble Marquess.
  THE MARQUESS OF SALISBURY: My Lords, perhaps it would be proper that I should make one or two remarks in reference to the observations which have fallen from the noble Earl, anal which were distinguished by great moderation and good taste. So far as Lord Kitchener was responsible for what was done, I am unable to agree with the noble Earl. I believe that certain steps had to be taken with a view to the possibility of the revival of a fanatical feeling in the country. There is reason to believe that what Lord Kitchener ordered to be done
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  was not quite rightly interpreted by those who carried it out, and he was at a distance when it was carried out. Into that question I need not enter, but I would entreat the House to remember that these questions, however deeply we feel upon them, are not questions of ethics; they are not even questions of policy; they are questions of taste, and taste varies in different countries at different times. There have been occasions even in this country when bodies have been dug up, to show opinions entertained at the time, and in a neighbouring country it has been still more abundantly done. If Lord Kitchener, when he was thinking, as he was bound to think, of the opinions of the vast populations that surrounded him, forgot for the moment the opinions that might prevail in London, we cannot blame him. I believe he did what he thought was necessary on the occasion for destroying this baneful superstition, and in that object at least we all of us must heartily sympathise.
  Her Majesty's most gracious Message of Friday last considered (according to order):Then an humble Address of thanks and concurrence ordered nemine dissentiente to be presented to Her Majesty thereupon The said Address to be presented to Her Majesty by the Lords with White Staves.
  THE MARQUESS OF SALISBURY: My Lords, I now have to propose to you a motion which I believe is in accordance with strict precedent on similar occasions, and which 1 am sure has never been more heartily adopted than it will be on the present occasion. If I may be permitted, I will read the motion to the House. Its terms are as follow:
  "That the thanks of this House be given to Major-General Lord Kitchener of Khartoum, G.C.B., K.C.M.G., for the distinguished skill and ability with which he planned and conducted the Culminated in the Battle of 1896–97–98, which culminated in the Battle of Omdurman, the capture of Khartoum, and the overthrow of the power of the Khalifa;
  That the thanks of this House he given to—
  Major-General Sir A. Hunter, K. C. B., D.S.O.;
  Major-General Sir H. M. L. Bundle, K.C.B.,
  Major-General Sir W. F. Gatacre, K.C.B., D.S.O.;

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  Major-General the Hon. N. G. Lyttelton, C.B.;
  Major-General A. G. Wauchope, C.B., C. M. G.;
  Major and Brevet Colonel Sir F. R. Wingate, K.C.M.G., C.B., D.S.O., R.A.;
  Lieutenant-Colonel and Brevet Colonel C. J. Long, R.A.;
  Major and Brevet Colonel. J. G. Maxwell, D. S. O.;
  Major and Brevet Colonel H. A. Macdonald, D. S.O.;
  Lieutenant-Colonel D. F. Lewis, C.B.;
  Major and Brevet Lieutenant-Colonel J. Collinson, C.B.;
  Commander C. R. Keppel, C.B., D.S.O., R.N.;
  and to the other Officers and Warrant Officers of the Navy, the British and the Egyptian Army, and the Royal Marines, for the energy and gallantry with which they executed the services which they were called upon to perform;
  That this House doth acknowledge and highly approve the gallantry, discipline, and good conduct displayed by the Petty Officers, Non-commissioned Officers, and Men of the Navy, the British and the Egyptian Army, and Royal Marines during the campaign;
  That the thanks of this House be given to Lieutenant-General Sir Francis Grenfell, G.C.B., G.C.M.G., for the support and assistance which he afforded to the forces employed in the operations in the Soudan;
  That this House doth acknowledge, with admiration, the distinguished valour, devotion, and conduct of those other Officers and Men who have perished during the campaign in the Soudan in the service of their country, and feels deep sympathy with their relatives and friends."
  My Lords, some fourteen years ago, about this time of the year, standing in this place, I had to move a similar vote of thanks to General Viscount Wolseley and the officers and men who had served with him in the Egyptian campaign. But the circumstances then were very different. It was necessary to point out and to dwell upon the fact that great merit and devotion had been shown by the British officers and men in carrying out the duties which were assigned to them, though the result of their efforts was not success. It was no blame of theirs that the result was not success; it was a combination of circumstances which it is now unnecessary to unravel. But we felt that the want of success then was no detraction to the great merits they had shown, or to the gratitude which their services would demand and receive from the country. Now we have a different task to perform. We have, indeed, to
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  bring before you equal merit, equal valour, equal skill and tenacity, but the whole has been crowned with a splendid success. Yet, let us not forget that, to the exertions of Lord Wolseley, and those who served under him in two Egyptian campaigns, it is due that the door was opened to the subsequent operations of which Lord Kitchener was the head, and that the brilliant campaigns—brilliant, though one of them was unsuccessful—with which Lord Wolseley was associated prepared the way for Lord Kitchener, and may claim a part of the lustre which has been shed upon his head. As the noble Earl has justly said, this is a worn-out subject. We have all listened to, and taken part in repeating, the praises which are due to the Sirdar, and, as those praises have been echoed and thoroughly accepted by his countrymen, there is now little more to be said. He will remain a striking figure, not only adorned by the valour and patriotism which all successful generals can show, but with the most extraordinary combination of calculation, of strategy, of statesmanship, which it has ever fallen to any general in those circumstances to display. His means were limited. The grotesque financial arrangements under which the Egyptian Exchequer lives prevented him from transgressing a very modest limit in the expenditure he was authorised to incur. He had all the difficulties to a certain extent—the unknown and untried difficulties—attaching to a campaign whose objective was a city which no white army had ever visited before, and he was fighting with an enemy vastly superior in numbers to his own forces, animated by a fanaticism which gives more powerful impulse for warlike qualities than probably any other, however high the motive, by which soldiers can be actuated. He had before him natural difficulties of a character which made it uncertain how far it would be within his means to overcome them, and with those difficulties he succeeded in winning a brilliant though not bloodless battle, but a battle which shattered in one moment the evil power that for so many years had brooded over those districts of Africa. It was a very wonderful achievement; but, as I say, he was guided by the knowledge which others who had gone before him had gained, and he was not limited in point of time, as we know was the case with the last expedition. He took exactly the

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  time that was necessary for his work, he made precisely the preparations which that work required, he expended upon it exactly the military strength which it demanded, and his victory came out with absolute accuracy, like the answer to a scientific calculation. I am glad that in making this motion I am not to speak of Lord Kitchener's merits alone. No doubt they were enormous, transcendent, and they have been fully recognised by his Sovereign and by his countrymen; but there is in all warlike history too much tendency to attach the whole merit of every campaign entirely to the leader by whom it was won. In this case he had singular assistance. The British troops, upon whose strength and steadfastness some unwise persons had cast doubt, showed that never in their history were they so stout and vigorous, even in the presence of the most formidable foe. He was supported to an unprecedented extent by the resources of science. The gunboats, which he himself largely designed, and which were conducted with great gallantry and skill, contributed no small amount to the victory; and the construction of the railway, in the circumstances under winch it was undertaken, was a marvellous effort of individual energy and skill on the part of the well-known engineer who undertook it, and also shows to what a lofty point the material and scientific progress of English industry has reached. These were all very remarkable circumstances. Perhaps I am inclined to attach to Lieutenant Girouard's work a very conspicuous position among these great achievements but to my mind that which was most wonderful of all was the brilliant and unfailing conduct of the Egyptian troops. I say this because I can remember the debates we used to have many years ago about the impossibility of inducing them to undertake the slightest amount of military exertion or even face the smallest warlike risk. It is one of the worst circumstances we have to lament in connection with these wars. I do not see my noble friend Lord Northbrook in his place, but I remember he used a phrase at which we rather laughed at the time, but which was a very prudent remark. He told its that the Egyptian troops were magnificent soldiers if only they would stand. That very lamentable defect ruined all their other qualities. When the enemy came
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  upon them they did not even resist. They threw away their weapons and allowed themselves to be slaughtered without resistance. It was a fearful condition of things, but the wonderful thing is that proper training, proper government, fair consideration, and great military skill, exercised by British officers, have made those men who were mere sheep equal to any native troops in the world; they have given them a strength of discipline, an absolute trust in their officers, which has made their conduct on the field of battle splendid to behold. Therefore I am glad that this vote of thanks includes General Grenfell, because it is very largely to his exertions and his guidance that this great reform in the character of the Egyptian soldiers is due. We ought not, while we exult in the victory achieved, to forget by how much patient labour and how much skilful training he brought the Egyptian troops up to the point where they could make to us the return—the splendid return—they have made. I will not, my Lords, trouble you further, but I will only just notice these two things. This campaign—I do not want to touch any question of policy—will, I believe, by its result largely increase British fame and influence all over the world, and largely strengthen the outworks of our Empire. This result has been gained by the exercise, in a very unusual and conspicuous degree, of two of the qualities by which we believe our race is adorned, and which largely contributed to the success and power we have achieved. The first is the great industrial progress, the enormous power over the forces of nature, which we have used for commercial purposes and improved year by year, but which now, to an extent never done before, we have shown to have been one of the most potent weapons that a skilful general can wield. The other is that it has brought out that quality which is the real secret of the domination of this country over such vast millions of uncultivated people. Our officers have the power—not merely one or two men, but almost all our officers either in India or in Egypt—to an extent which, I think, has never yet been given to any race in the world, of inducing men of a lower race to attach themselves absolutely to their officers who govern them, to repose in them the most complete con-

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  fidence and trust, to obey them without question, and to follow them into any danger. It is this splendid influence of often a handful of officers over vast masses of men of other races, which has enabled us to rear up that vast empire, so far out of proportion to the numerical strength which we can bring to support it, but which we have been able to make and to defend by the strength of those vast multitudes of other races whom our officers have had this singular and marvellous power of governing, training, and attaching. I do not think it has ever been shown in a more distinguished form than in the force, cohesion, and excellence they have given to the Egyptian troops; but they have only produced qualities which they have always shown, and which they show no signs of losing—qualities which have erected, and which, I trust, will maintain for many generations yet to come, the power and influence of the Empire of the Queen.
  THE EARL OF KIM BERLEY: My Lords, the noble Marquess, in the extremely interesting speech which we have just listened to, has left me very little to say. I concur with all that he has said, but I am most struck with the latter part of his speech. I feel, as he does, that what we have most reason to be proud of is the manner in which we have reorganised, not only the Government, but I might almost say the people of Egypt. It seems to me that this is a subject which we do well to dwell upon, because the strength and the safety of our Empire—I mean outside this country—over the vast numbers of, as we regard them, less civilised peoples, rests entirely, I may say, upon the moral qualities possessed by those who lead them. I may perhaps be allowed to wander slightly from the immediate subject of our discussion when I mention the name of Lord Cromer. It is only clue to Lord Cromer—though on an occasion like this he could not, of course, be included in the Vote which we are about to pass—to say that it has been by his statesmanlike conduct, his indefatigable industry, his calm, quiet, patient perseverance, that the organisation of Egypt as we now see it has been attained. Without that I do not think even the abilities of Lord Kitchener could have produced the results which we are celebrating to-day. The striking conclusion at which we have been able to arrive is
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  that by means of these admirable young officers—for many of them are very young officers—we are able to make use of large populations which, perhaps, without our leading would never have attained to that warlike demeanour which the noble Marquess has so justly commended in the Egyptians. I am tempted to repeat a very small but striking anecdote told to me not long ago which referred to one of our great fights in India during the time of the Mutiny. An old officer told me the story. During a very hot engagement a young English officer was killed, and the commanding officer remarked to a Sikh subardar—a non-commissioned officer of high rank—how deeply he regretted the loss of this officer, and added: "But even that loss we can well sustain when we have men like you who we know can be trusted in all circumstances." "Yes," was the reply, "that may be; we can fight, and fight well, but we want your young men to lead us." That has been the secret of our success. In celebrating what Lord Kitchener has achieved, the noble Marquess has justly dwelt upon the extraordinary skill with which he made all the preparations which ended in his brilliant achievement; and it seems to me that that is perhaps the most remarkable part of the whole achievement. I believe, myself, that those who dwell upon the history of great military operations will find in the past history of the world that the greatest mid most successful commanders have been those who have known best the secret of long, careful, and complete preparation before they ventured on the great campaigns which they succeeded in. That is the example which Lord Kitchener has shown to us, and it is for that he well deserves the special honour which we bestow upon him to-night. But, as the noble Marquess says, it is not the leader only; and it is remarkable to reflect that the power and influence of our officers should have so transformed the Egyptian troops that they were worthy to stand by the side of British soldiers. One cannot help making this reflection. I suppose that all of us in the abstract would desire to avoid war; we all of us desire peace; but there are circumstances in which I believe that war may even elevate a nation; and in this present instance I believe it has been a matter of great good fortune to the Egyptian people that the

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  occasion has arisen where they have been able to show that they are capable of standing firmly before the enemy, because, whatever we may say, the greatness of nations will always rest on their being ready and willing to face great dangers when they are threatened; and the fact that the Egyptians have shown these qualities against their enemies must give us a much higher opinion of them, and must tend not only to raise their own opinion of themselves, but to give them a confidence which probably nothing else would ever impart to them. My Lords, I really should be guilty of wasting your time if I were to attempt to repeat what the noble Marquess has so well said. All I will add is this: I do not believe that there is a more pleasing and a more honourable task for Parliament, representing the nation, to perform, than that it should meet to offer a grateful tribute of admiration to those of our countrymen who in distant lands face great dangers and achieve great successes for the Empire to which we belong.
  Resolved,nemine dissentiente, That the thanks of this House be given to Major-General Lord Kitchener of Khartoum, G.C.B., K.C.M.G., for the distinguished skill and ability with which he planned and conducted the campaign on the Nile of 1896–97–98, which culminated in the battle of Omdurman, the capture of Khartoum, and the overthrow of the power of the Khalifa.
  That the thanks of this House he given to—
  Major-General Sir A. Hunter, K.C.B., D.S.O.;
  Major-General Sir H. M. L. Rundle, K.C.B., D.5.0.;
  Major-General Sir W. F. Gatacre, K.C.B., D.S.O.;
  Major-General the Hon. N. G. Lyttelton, C.B.;
  Major-General A. G. Wauchope, C.B., C.M.G.;
  Major and Brevet Colonel Sir F. R. Wingate, K.C.M.G., C.B., D.S.0., R.A.;
  Lieutenant-Colonel and Brevet Colonel C. J. Long, R.A.;
  Major and Brevet Colonel J. G. Maxwell, D.S.O.;
  Major and Brevet Colonel H. A. Macdonald, D.S.O.;
  Lieutenant-Colonel D. F. Lewis, C.B.;
  Major and Brevet Lieutenant-Colonel J. Collinson, C.B.;
  Commander C. R. Keppel, C.B., D.S.O., R.N.;
  and to the other Officers and Warrant Officers of the Navy, the British and the Egyptian Army, and the Royal Marines, for the energy and gallantry with which they executed the services which they were called upon to perform;
  That this House doth acknowledge and highly approve the gallantry, discipline, and good conduct displayed by the Petty Officers, Non-commissioned Officers, and Men of the Navy, the British and the Egyptian Army, and Royal Marines during the campaign;
  That the thanks of this House be given to Lieutenant-General Sir Francis Grenfell, G.C.B., G.C.M.G., for the support and assistance which he afforded to the forces employed in the operations in the Soudan;
  That this House doth acknowledge, with admiration, the distinguished valour, devotion, and conduct of those other Officers and Men who have perished during the campaign in the Soudan in the service of their country, and feels deep sympathy with their relatives and friends;
  Ordered that the Lord Chancellor do communicate the said resolutions to General Lord Kitchener of Khartoum and to Lieutenant-General Sir Francis Grenfell, and that General Lord Kitchener of Khartoum be requested by the Lord Chancellor to communicate the same to the several other officers referred to therein.

SEA FISHERIES BILL [Lords].

  SECOND READING.
  Order of the Day for the Second Reading read.
  LORD HENEAGE: My Lords, I hope I shall not be thought discourteous to your Lordships if in a very few words I ask you to give a Second Reading to this Bill, because when I moved its Second Reading last year I went very thoroughly into the whole history of the Bill. Your Lordships have already passed this Bill through all its stages in four successive sessions. The Bill is the outcome of the

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  Report of the Select Committee of the House of Commons, which was moved for by the late Government in 1893, to take into consideration resolutions which have been come to by the Sea Fisheries Association and by a number of international conferences held during the previous ten years. In 1896 and 1897 the Board of Trade passed the Bill through all its stages in this House, and it was sent down to the House of Commons, but on each occasion failed to get through that House. Last year I had the honour of introducing the Bill, and having, as I thought, ascertained that the Government were not going to bring in a Bill during the present session, I have put it down again, and I now ask your Lordships to give it a Second Reading. I am anxious that the Bill should, if possible, pass this session. It is a Bill which the present President of the Board of Trade stated three years ago it would be a disgrace to any Government not to do their best to pass, and I trust that in the present session I shall not only be able to get the Bill through your Lordships' House, but that the Government will give us some assistance in passing it into law in another place.
  Moved, that the Bill now be read 2a."
  THE SECRETARY FOR SCOTLAND (Lord BALFOUR OF BURLEIGH): My Lords, in the unavoidable absence of the noble Earl the Parliamentary Secretary to the Board of Trade (the Earl of Dudley), I have been asked to state the view which Her Majesty's Government hold as to the proper procedure in regard to this Bill. The noble Lord has correctly stated that the House has passed a similar Bill upon other occasions. The Board of Trade are unable to regard the whole of the provisions of this Bill with satisfaction, and more particularly they think that some of the provisions of the second clause go in advance of what is necessary at the present time. I do not rise to oppose the Second Reading of the Bill, but to inform the House that the Government have prepared a measure of their own, which, I believe, is being introduced into the other House of Parliament at the present time, dealing with this subject; and I would venture to suggest to the noble Lord that if we pass the Second Reading of this Bill to-day he should not ask the House to make any furthur pro-
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  gress with the measure until, at any rate, we see what chance the Bill introduced by the Government has of passing the other House of Parliament. If that Bill should pass the other House, as we have every reason to hope it will, when it comes here it will be a fair matter for consideration on the part of the noble Lord, and of the House generally, which of the two Bills will be the better to pass. I venture to suggest, under the circumstances, that if to-night we give this Bill a Second Reading, the noble Lord should come under the obligation not, in the meantime, at any rate, to proceed further with the measure in this House.
  LORD HENEAGE: My Lords, I perfectly accept what has been said by the noble Lord opposite. I had no knowledge of the intention of the Government to bring in a Bill dealing with this subject. I am perfectly prepared to withdraw my Bill at any time after it has secured a Second Reading, if the Bill which the Government are about to introduce meets the case.
  On Question, agreed to.
  Bill read 2a (according to order), and committed to a Committee of the whole House on Thursday, the 22nd instant.

  REFORMADERY SCHOOLS AMENDMENT BELL (Lords.
  [SECOND READING.]
  Order of the Day for the Second Reading read.
  *LORD LEIGH: My Lords, the Bill which I am now asking your Lordships to read a second time is a very simple one. Its object is to amend the Act which I had the honour of introducing into this House in 1893. Your Lordships are fully aware that until 1893 it was obligatory for magistrates to send all children committed to a reformatory in the first instance to the gaol. It was owing to the fact that I considered this practice objectionable in the highest degree that I introduced a Bill in 1893 giving the magistrates the power of using their discretion in the matter; but I regret that the Bill—it is now an Act of Parliament—did not go far enough. I desire that it should be made compulsory, and not permissive, for magistrates to send all children direct to the school. Although the

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  Act of 1893 is permissive, it has effected a great deal of good, awl I believe it has had the result of inducing many magistrates to send boys direct to the reformatory, instead of, as formerly, allowing them to reach the reformatory through a prison. I hold in my hand a return which I have received from the Inspector of Reformatories, which says that in England, during the last year, out of the 1,170 boys and girls who were committed to prison, no fewer than 926 were sent to school direct, showing, I think, that the feeling of the magistrates generally is tending towards doing what I want to see done. In Scotland, out of 242 committals, no fewer than 227 were sent direct to school. If von put these two together you will find that there were no fewer than 1,153 children out of 1,412 sent direct to the reformatories. But what has become of the 259 children who were sent to prison? In my opinion it is most objectionable that there should be two forms of committal. Under the present system you may have boys in the same reformatory who were first sent to prison, but who were no worse than the other boys who were sent direct to the school; and the fact of sending the lads to prison is calculated to create a very bad feeling among them. My noble and learned friend the Chancellor of the Duchy of Lancaster, whom I am glad to see in his place to-day, told me recently of a case, which I fear is not an uncommon one, of a little boy of eleven years of age who had been sent to a reformatory for fourteen days for merely throwing stones. I should like to ask how many of your Lordships in your school days refrained from throwing stones. For myself, I confess that I have thrown many, but I did not suffer imprisonment for it. I feel very strongly on this point, and I think it is remarkable that this is the only country in Europe which compels children to qualify for the reformatory through a gaol. I hope I may live to see the day, and that it will not be far distant, when no boy under fifteen or sixteen years of age will be sent to prison, except tinder very peculiar circumstances. I have often spoken to the superintendent of the reformatory schools in my own county, and he has told me that the boys committed to gaol before going to the reformatory have always proved the hardest to reform. I sincerely believe, if it were made compulsory to send children direct to reformatories,
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  that the percentage of reformations, which at this moment is about 90 per cent., would be considerably larger and that there would scarcely be a boy who, on his discharge from a reformatory, would not be able to earn his livelihood. As an old visiting magistrate of many years' standing, and chairman of a reformatory in my own county, I heartily thank the Government for having improved the circumstances under which boys are admitted into gaols at the present time, and for adopting classification. But they have not done enough. They must repeal the old Act, and not allow any boy to be sent to gaols except, as I have said, under very peculiar circumstances. It has been asked, "What harm does it do to send boys to gaol first?" I contend that it does a great deal of harm. The boys so sent retain the gaol mark, which tends to debar them from securing that employment which otherwise they might obtain. Under the circumstances, I hope your Lordships will give the Bill a Second Reading.
  Moved, "That the Bill be now read 2a."
  LORD JAMES OF HEREFORD: My Lords, I am desired, on behalf of the Home Office, to say that the Government cordially supports the proposal of my noble friend. It is due to the noble Lord to say that he has taken an active part and shown a practical interest in this question. In 1893 he introduced a Bill similar to the one he is now submitting, but at that time it was thought that it would be better to allow the power of sending direct to the reformatory to be at the discretion of the magistrates. Since that time a Departmental Committee has met and recommended the very measure which the noble Lord now submits to you. Further than that, in a Bill to be introduced on the part of the Government in a few days, it is proposed to insert a provision to prevent children being sent to gaol except under peculiar circumstances. The Bill of the Government will be closely identical with that of my noble friend, but I think the honour ought to remain with him of having introduced this beneficial reform, and, so far as they can do so, the Government will render him every assistance in carrying the Bill.
  *LORD NORTON: My Lords, I thoroughly agree with the principle of this Bill—namely, that children convicted

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  of crime should be punished otherwise than in common prisons. At the same time, children convicted more than once must not be allowed to go unpunished, and in some cases they may have to be dealt with in the same way as adult prisoners. The Act of 1893, which this Bill proposes to amend, provides that in lieu of punishment children convicted of crime a second time may be merely sent to reformatory schools. The sooner the idea of treating these schools as a means of punishment is got rid of the better. To treat schools as prisons is one of the greatest blunders we could possibly fall into. A penal school, if such a thing were possible, would be a monstrosity of the greatest cruelty and mischief, and I can conceive of nothing that would have a worse effect than treating a child differently to an adult by continuing his punishment over a number of years, and stamping him as a criminal for the whole of his childhood. A child who commits a crime should be adequately punished, but when, as an after treatment, he is sent to school he should not be branded as a criminal. Reformatories are considered penal institutions because they are under the Home Office, but they are as agreeable schools as any in the country. There is practically no difference between reformatory schools and industrial schools, and they are treated indiscriminately by magistrates. The reformatory school, even if it were intended as such, cannot be made penal treatment, and I hope that treating these schools as penal institutions will be avoided altogether when we deal next year with the detail of the Education Department. I shall endeavour, when this matter comes before the House, and I hope I shall be successful, to get these schools, both reformatory and industrial, transferred from the Home Office to the Education Department, to which they properly belong. I speak on this matter with some authority. I introduced the first Acts, both with regard to reformatory schools and industrial schools, and I have devoted considerable attention to their administration for half a century. When I first suggested to Parliament that it was a mistake to treat these schools as penal institutions, I was told that everyone was against me, but the various Royal Commissions of inquiry who have discussed the subject have gradually come round to my view on the
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  subject. Lord Aberdare's Commission proposed bringing reformatories partially under the Education Office. The last Commission came entirely to my opinion, and the Chairman—Sir Godfrey Lushington—signed a special Report, opposed to these schools being treated in any sense as penal institutions, and recommending that they should be part of the education system. In all these schools technical is given in addition to intellectual instruction, and in this respect they are in advance of other national schools throughout the country. Therefore, it any change is to be made, it should be to make other publicly aided schools more like them, and to place them all equally under the Department to which they ought to belong. Children who have committed crimes cannot, however, be relieved of punishment by these schools being put on a proper footing and cleared altogether of their penal character. They must be adequately punished, and then sent either to a reformatory or to their homes. I recollect very well that some years ago Sir William Harcourt, who was then Home Secretary, came to see my own reformatory in the neighbourhood of Birmingham, and he asked: "Have none of these children decent homes?" Hearing that some had received a reply in the affirmative, he expressed his surprise that they were not, after punishment, sent home, when they would have to attend National schools; and I agree with the right hon. Gentleman that only those children should be sent to a reformatory who have not decent homes to which to go. I wish both the Act which this Bill is intended to amend, and the Bill itself, were differently worded in order that their object should be made quite clear. It is certainly an important thing to prevent children convicted of crime being punished in common prisons. That is the true object of this Bill, but as drafted it will not achieve that result. The only enacting clause in the Bill—and in my opinion there is nothing more dangerous than one clause Bills—reads as follows:
  "The Reformatory Schools Act, 1893, shall be read and have effect as if the following proviso were added at the end of Section 1, that is to say: 'Provided that where the offender is ordered to be sent to a certified reformatory school he shall not in addition be sentenced to penal servitude or imprisonment.'"
  As a matter of fact, the offender is never sent to a reformatory school, and in

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  addition, but as a preliminary, sentenced to imprisonment; so that the Bill, as it stands, proposes to provide against a thing that is never done. The Bill does not carry out the important object it has in view; which, however, magistrates may be hoped to make it do.
  On Question, agreed to.
  Bill read a second time (according to order), and committed to a Committee of the whole House on Monday next.

  PREVENTION OF CORRUPTION BILL [Lords].
  House in Committee (according to order):Bill reported without amendment: Standing Committee negatived: Amendments made: Bill re-committed to a Committee of the whole House; and to he printed as amended. (No. 108.)
  FARNLEY TYAS MARRIAGES BILL [Lords].
  House in Committee (according to order): Bill reported without amendment: Standing Committee negatived; and Bill to be read:3a To-morrow.
QUESTION.

  THE APPOINTMENT OF AN ADDITIONAL JUDGE.
  LORD RUSSELL OF KILLOWEN: My Lords, I beg to ask the noble and learned Earl the Lord Chancellor whether Her Majesty's Government have considered and are prepared to give effect to the urgent representations made to the Lord Chancellor, by (amongst others) the Incorporated Law Society and the Council of the Bar of England, as to the necessity for the appointment of additional Judges. I hope the noble and learned Earl will find it convenient to answer the Question.
  THE LORD CHANCELLOR: My Lords, my answer to the first part of the Question is that Her Majesty's Government have considered the Question, and, under the circumstances, they have considered it right to agree to the appointment of an additional Judge to be added to the Equity Division.
  House adjourned at twenty minutes before Six o'clock, till To-morrow, a quarter past Four o'clock.