Lords Sitting of 13 July 1899

ROYAL ASSENT.

  COMMISSION.
  The following Bills received the Royal Assent:
  1. Fine or Imprisonment (Scotland and Ireland).
  2. Reformatory Schools Amendment.
  3. Education of Children.
  4. London Government.
  5. Local Government Provisional Orders (No. 2).
  6. Local Government Provisional Orders (No. 3).
  7. Local Government Provisional Orders (No. 5).
  8. Local Government Provisional Orders (No. 7).
  9. Local Government Provisional Orders (No. 8).
  10. Local Government Provisional Orders (No. 11).
  11. Local Government Provisional Orders (Gas).
  12. Local Government Provisional Order (Housing of Working Classes).
  13. Local Government Provisional Orders (Poor Law).
  14. Housing of the Working Classes Provisional Order (Borrow-stounness).
  15. Electric Lighting Provisional Order (No. 3).
  16. Electric Lighting Provisional Orders (No. 5).
  17. Electric Lighting Provisional Orders (No. 6).
  18. Electric Lighting Provisional Orders (No. 7).
  19. Electric Lighting Provisional Orders (No. 8).
  20. Electric Lighting Provisional Orders (No. 9).
  21. Electric Lighting Provisional Orders (No. 16).
  22. Electric Lighting Provisional Order (No. 18).
  23. Electric Lighting Provisional Orders (No. 19).
  24. Education Department Provisional Order Confirmation (Liverpool).
  25. Pier and Harbour Provisional Orders (No. 1).
  26. Local Government (Ireland) Provisional Order (No. 1).
  27. Local Government (Ireland) Provisional Orders (No. 2).
  28. Local Government (Ireland) Provisional Orders (No. 3).
  29. Local Government (Ireland) Provisional Orders (Housing of the Working Classes) (No. 2).
  30. Military Lands Provisional Order.
  31. London, Brighton, and South Coast Railway (Pensions).
  32. Friends' Provident Institution.
  33. Skipton Urban District Gas.
  34. Mid Kent Gas.
  35. Wishaw Water.
  36. Shotley Bridge and Consett District Gas.
  37. Aberdeen Corporation.
  38. Cardiff Railway.
  39. Rhondda Urban District Council.
  40. Hastings and St. Leonards Gas.
  41. Belfast and Northern Counties Railways.
  42. Colonial and Foreign Banks Guarantee Fund.
  43. Grosvenor Chapel (London).
  44. Hampstead Church (Emmanuel, West End).
  45. Brynmawr and Western Valleys Railway.
  46. Barton-on-Sea Water.
  47. Lanarkshire (Middle Ward District) Water.
  48. Edinburgh Corporation.
  49. Wetherby District Water.
  50. Airdrie and Coatbridge Water.
  51. Gainsborough Urban District Council (Gas).
  52. Wick and Pulteney Harbours.
  53. Dundee Gas, Street Improvements, and Tramways.
  54. Cork Corporation (Finance).
  55. South-Eastern Railway.
  56. Fishguard Water and Gas.
  57. Bury Corporation.
  58. Bury Corporation Water.
  59. Barry Railway.
  60. Kensington and Notting Hill Electric Lighting.
  61. Lancashire and Yorkshire Railway (New Railways).
  62. Lancashire and Yorkshire Railway (Various Powers).
  63. Cobham Gas.
  64. Stretford Gas.
  65. Central Electric Supply.
  66. Shirebrook and District Gas.
  67. South Staffordshire Stipendiary Justice.
  68. West Middlesex Water.
  69. Church Stretton Water.
  70. St. Neot's Water.
  71. St. James's and Pall Mall Electric Light.
  72. Belfast Water.
  73. Great Central Railway.
  74. London, Chatham, and Dover Railway.
  75. Scunthorpe Urban District Gas and Water.
  76. Ionian Bank.
  77. Inverness Harbour.
  78. Nottingham Corporation.
  79. Taff Vale Railway.
  80. Transvaal Mortgage Loan and Finance Company.
  81. Great Yarmouth Pier.
  82. Lisburn Urban District Councils.
  83. Aire and Calder Navigation.
  84. Midland Railway.
  85. Jones' Divorce.
  86. Yorke Estate.

PRIVATE BILL BUSINESS.
The LORD CHANCELLOR The LORD CHANCELLOR acquainted the House that the Clerk of the Parliaments had laid upon the Table the Certificate from the Examiners that the Standing Orders applicable to the following Bill have been complied with:
ELECTRIC LIGHTING PROVISIONAL ORDER (No. 20).
The same was ordered to lie on the Table.
LONDON UNITED TRAMWAYS BILL.
  LONDON AND NORTH WESTERN RAILWAY (ADDITIONAL POWERS) BILL.
  Committee to meet To-morrow.
  BRISTOL GAS BILL [H.L.]
  Commons Amendments considered, and agreed to, with an Amendment; and Bill returned to the Commons.
  WARRINGTON CORPORATION BILL [H.L.]
  The CHAIRMAN OF COMMITTEES The CHAIRMAN OF COMMITTEES informed the House that the opposition to the Bill was withdrawn. The Order made on Tuesday last discharged, and Bill committed.
  LEEDS CORPORATION BILL.
  Reported from the Select Committee with Amendments.
  DUBLIN CORPORATION BILL.
  A witness ordered to attend the Select Committee.
  MILLWALL DOCK BILL.
  Reported without Amendment.
  LOCAL GOVERNMENT PROVISIONAL ORDERS (No. 4) BILL.
  Reported with Amendments, and committed to a Committee of the whole House on Tuesday next.
CENTRAL LONDON RAILWAY BILL.
  MANCHESTER CORPORATION (GENERAL POWERS) BILL.
  Reported with Amendments.
GREAT WESTERN RAILWAY BILL.
  FISHGUARD AND ROSSLARE RAILWAYS AND HARBOURS BILL.
  The Queen's consent signified; and Bills reported with Amendments.
PIER AND HARBOUR PROVISIONAL ORDERS (No. 2) BILL.
Report from the Select Committee, That the Committee had not proceeded with the consideration of the Bill, the opposition having been withdrawn; read, and ordered to lie on the Table: The Orders made on the 27th of June and the 4th of July discharged; and Bill committed to a Committee of the Whole House.
LONDON, WALTHAMSTOW, AND EPPING FOREST RAILWAY (No. 2) BILL.
Moved that the Order made on the 9th day of March last, "That no Private Bill brought from the House of Commons shall be read a second time after Tuesday the 27th day of June next," be dispensed with, and that the Bill be read 2a; agreed to; Bill read 2a accordingly, and committed.
LEITH HARBOUR AND DOCKS BILL.
Returned from the Commons with the Amendments agreed to.
ALL SAINTS' CHURCH (CARDIFF) BILL [H.L.]
  BRIGHTON MARINE PALACE AND PIER BILL [H.L.]
    GREAT GRIMSBY STREET TRAMWAYS BILL [H.L.]
    Returned from the Commons agreed to, with Amendments.
LOCAL GOVERNMENT (IRELAND) PROVISIONAL ORDER (No. 4) BILL.
Read 3a (according to Order), and passed.
LOCAL GOVERNMENT PROVISIONAL ORDERS (No. 9) BILL.
Amendments reported (according to Order), and Bill to be read 3a on Tuesday next.
LOCAL GOVERNMENT PROVISIONAL ORDERS (No. 6) BILL.
  LOCAL GOVERNMENT PROVISIONAL ORDERS (No. 10) BILL
  House in Committee (according to Order); Bills reported without Amendment; Standing Committee negatived; and Bills to be read 3a on Tuesday next.
RETURNS, REPORTS, &c.
  AFRICA, No. 6 (1899).
  Report by the Mombasa-Victoria (Uganda) Railway Committee on the progress of the works, 1898–99 (with a map).
  SIERRA LEONE.
  Report by Her Majesty's Commissioner, and correspondence on the subject of the insurrection in the Sierra Leone Protectorate, 1898. Part II. Evidence and documents.

  TRADE REPORTS (ANNUAL SERIES).
  No. 2315. Venezuela.
  No. 2316. Turkey (Baghdad) and Bussorah).
  Presented (by Command), and ordered to lie on the Table.

  LIGHT RAILWAYS ACT, 1896.
  Orders made by the Light Railway Commissioners, and modified and confirmed by the Board of Trade, authorising the construction of—

  I. A light railway in the County of Essex, between Corringham, Thames Haven, and Kynochtown.

  II. Light railways in the County of Lancaster, in the parishes of
  Barton-upon-Irwell and Stretford.

  III. A light railway between Axminster, in the County of Devon, and Lyme Regis, in the County of Dorset.

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  IV. Light railways from Colwyn Bay to Llandudno, in the Counties of Denbigh and Carnarvon.

  SEA FISHERIES ACT, 1868.
  Orders for fishery grants, 1898–99: Report of the Board of Trade, under Part III. of the Act.
  Laid before the House (pursuant to Act), and ordered to lie on the Table.

PETITIONS.
  PREVENTION OF CORRUPTION BILL [H.L.]
  Petition in favour of; of the Religious Society of Friends; read, and ordered to lie on the Table.
  VIVISECTION.
  Petition for suppression of the practice of: of a Meeting in Bayswater; read, and ordered to lie on the Table.
  POOR LAW ACTS AMENDMENT BILL [H.L.]
  Reported from the Standing Committee with Amendments; the Report thereof to be received on Tuesday next; and Bill to be printed as amended. No. 164.)
  COMMONS AND OPEN SPACES BILL [H.L.]
  Reported from the Standing Committee with further Amendments; the Report of the Amendments made in Committee of the Whole House and by the Standing Committee to be received To-morrow; and Bill to be printed as amended. (No. 165.)
  MARRIAGES VALIDITY (No. 2) BILL [H.L.]
  Reported from the Standing Committee without Amendment, and to be read 3a To-morrow.

  SEATS FOR SHOP ASSISTANT (ENGLAND AND IRELAND) BILL.
  Order of the Day for the House to be put into Committee, read.
  LORD RIBBLESDALE: My Lords, I rise to move that it be an Instruction to the Committee that they have power to extend the scope of the Bill to Scotland I think it will be convenient that I should explain, at the time of moving the Instruction, the general reasons why I intend to move the Amendments standing in my name on the Paper, and which I shall submit to your Lordships when

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  the House is in Committee. I feel certain, from what he said in the course of his speech, that my Instruction will have the sympathy of the noble Duke who moved and carried the Second Reading of this Bill the other night. It will be within your Lordships' recollection that on the 4th of May a similar Bill, applying to Scotland only, was lost in this House. The noble Lord who moved the rejection of this Bill on Tuesday (Lord Shand) also
  moved the rejection of the Bill applying only to Scotland, and he did so on the ground that England and Ireland were excluded from it. That was also the ground of objection taken by the noble Marquess at the head of the Government. I hope the Amendments I shall move presently will contrive a double debt to pay. They will, I believe, relieve this Bill of any possible imputation of having been introduced with a view to exceptional treatment for England and Ireland to the exclusion of Scotland, and, at the same time, will admit Scotland to the advantages which we conceive will follow the passage of this Bill. Therefore, I beg to move the Instruction which stands in my name
  Moved—
  "That it be an Instruction to the Committee that they have power to extend the scope of the Bill to Scotland."—(The Lord Ribblesdale.)
  THE EARL OF WEMYSS: My Lords, the Instruction which has been moved by the noble Lord is to include Scotland within the scope of this Bill, and, as has been stated, your Lordships have already unanimously rejected, without a Division, a Bill of this kind applying to Scotland. My noble friend said the reason why the noble Marquess at the head of the Government, and the noble and learned Lord (Lord Shand) opposed the former Bill was, that Scotland was being treated in an exceptional manner, and he implied that that was really the only ground of argument against the Scotch Bill. That
  was only part of the argument. I think a strong part of the noble Marquess's argument was that this legislation, if sanctioned, would eventually find its way into your Lordships' houses, and that you would have inspectors looking after your housemaids. We have many Scotch Peers in this House, and I think it is very strange that no Scotch Peer should have moved this Instruction, which strictly affects Scotland, but that it should have
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  been left to a humanitarian Yorkshireman to come to the protection of the maids in Scotland. Your Lordships, no doubt, have excellent reasons for the course you have taken with reference to this kind of legislation. Whether it comes in one form or another, the principle is the same. You kicked it out, almost without a word, and without a Division, in a pretty full House five weeks ago, but now, when it comes up in a more concrete form, affecting England and Ireland only, you agree to it by a majority of three to one, with two of the right rev. Prelates at your back supporting it. As one of the right rev. Prelates is a Scotchman, I should have expected something very different from him. I would ask your Lordships to consider whether inconsistent legislation such as this will in any way tend to raise the character of your Lordships' House as a deliberative body on whom the country can rely. I leave it to the consciences of noble Lords to answer that question. I merely wish to enter my protest, in the strongest possible terms, against this Bill, and I hope your Lordships will believe that, notwithstanding my opposition to the Bill, I have as much compassion for those who suffer as any of the noble Lords who appear to think they have a monopoly of humanity because they go in for this sort of legislation. I protest against this Bill, because I regard it as peddling, hysterical, humanitarian, vote-catching legislation, for which this great Mother of Parliaments was never intended nor devised, and which is calculated to make Parliamentarians of the past turn in their graves.
  LORD NORTON: My Lords, before we should be asked to include Scotland within the scope of this Bill, I think we should have some further information as to its provisions. Inspectors are alluded to in the Bill, but there is no provision for the inspectorate nor for its cost. Supposing there are only some 500,000 shops in the United Kingdom to be inspected by these inspectors, their appointment must mean a large increase in the number of civil servants. It may be that when the number and the cost of the inspectors to be appointed is ascertained, Scotland may not agree with the noble Lord who moved this Instruction that it would be an advantage to be included in this Bill, but might regard this as a Bill to be avoided. I therefore think we should have some information as to the cost of

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  these inspectors, and how they are to be employed, before we are called upon to extend the provisions of the Bill to Scotland.
  THE DUKE OF WESTMINSTER: The question of the appointment of these inspectors was gone into in the other House, and the last clause of the Bill provides that it shall be read and construed as one with the Shop Hours Acts, 1892 to 1895. I am informed that the same inspectors who are appointed under those Acts will look after the provision of seats under this Act, if passed, and that there will consequently be no additional expense thrown upon the country.
  THE DUKE OF ABERCORN: The noble Earl on the Cross Benches (the Earl of Wemyss) has appealed to Scotch Peers with regard to this Instruction. I have the honour to be a Scotch Peer, and I would appeal to the House to accede to the motion of the noble Lord opposite. I regard this as a measure which will prove beneficial to womankind, and I do not see why those benefits should not be extended to Scotland.
  THE EARL OF ABERDEEN: My Lords, I had intended moving an Instruction in the direction of that moved by the noble Lord (Lord Ribblesdale), but he has forestalled me. Seeing that the noble Lord was already in the field, I did not burden the Notice Paper with an Amendment in this direction, but I hope your Lordships will not be under any sense of misgiving as to the reception which this Instruction, if adopted, will meet with in Scotland. This is not a question which has been sprung upon the country, or upon Parliament, in an unexpected way; the movement has been going on, I may say, for the past
  twenty years. It came under my notice twenty years ago in connection with a pamphlet written by Dr. Ediss, who in forcible language drew attention to the health aspect of the question. It has also been frequently alluded to in Scotland. The noble Marquess at the head of the Government, in his speech on the Second Reading of this Bill, stated that some of the lady Commissioners in their reports to the Labour Commission spoke as if the question of providing seats for shop assistants was an altogether subordinate and apparently immaterial matter. I think, if the noble Marquess would look again into what he properly described as
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  a bulky volume to which he referred, he will see that there are allusions in it strongly advocating the provision for counter seats for shop assistants. I hold in my hand a semi-official report made by one of the lady Commissioners to whom the noble Marquess referred in terms of just appreciation. I refer to Miss Irwin who, in numerous instances, alludes to the importance of the provision of seats. Under the heading "Provision for Health and Comfort," she says:
  "The provision of some form of seats in shops should be compulsory."
  As to the feeling in Scotland, I venture to predict that public opinion generally is prepared for this measure. I cannot help thinking that it was more or less an accident that the Seats for Shop Assistants (Scotland) Bill did not pass on the former occasion. Therefore I, for one, welcome the present opportunity of including Scotland in this Bill, and I certainly hope the Instruction will be carried.
  EARL COWPER: I, my lords, am also a Scotch Peer, and I am very proud of that fact. Scotchmen in general are supposed by some Englishmen not to be very fond of spending their money, but I think it is a very great slur upon that country to suggest that they would object to being included in this Bill merely on account of the expense which would be incurred in appointing the necessary inspectors. I am sure no one in Scotland would for one moment give any consideration to that matter. A doubt has been expressed as to whether there is any strong feeling in the country on this subject. The noble Earl on the Cross Benches (the Earl of Wemyss) has accused us of having voted for the sake of election purposes. I do not think this House would do anything of the kind, but, if we are likely to catch any votes by it, it looks as if the country were in favour of the Bill. In my opinion, the House of Lords will stand in even a better position with the country than it does now, which is saying a good deal, if it passes this Bill.
  THE EARL OF LAUDERDALE: I am a Scotch Peer, my Lords, and I am glad to have the opportunity of saying that the Instruction which has been moved by the noble Lord opposite has my thorough and entire support.
  On Question, agreed to.
  Moved, That the House do now resolve itself into Committee, agreed to.
  House in Committee accordingly.
  Clause 1:—
  THE DUKE OF WESTMINSTER: It has been represented to me that under this clause too much power is given to inspectors with regard to the provision of seats. Under the clause as it stands, inspectors would be able to say to the shopkeeper, "You must put a chair here," or, "You must put a chair there." We think it better to leave the Bill more elastic in this respect. The Bill says that the employer shall provide seats behind the counter and in the show-rooms, or in such other place as an inspector under this Act may direct, for the use of the assistants employed by him. My Amendment proposes to leave out the words "as an inspector under this Act may direct," and insert "as may be conveniently used by the female assistants." This Amendment has been suggested by the Drapers' Chamber of Trade, and I hope your Lordships will adopt it.
  Amendment moved—
  "In line 10, to leave out from 'place' to 'for' and insert 'as may be conveniently used by the female assistants.'"—(The Duke of Westminster.)
  On Question, "That the words proposed to be left out stand part of the clause," resolved in the negative.
  THE EARL OF WEMYSS: I would like to ask whether there are to be inspectors under this Bill or not?
  THE DUKE OF WESTMINSTER: Yes.
  THE EARL OF WEMYSS: What are they to do?
  THE DUKE OF WESTMINSTER: They are to see that every shop in the United Kingdom has seats, either behind the counter or in the showrooms, or in some other convenient place, for the use of the female assistants.
  On Question, "That the words proposed to be inserted stand part of the clause," agreed to.
  THE DUKE OF WESTMINSTER: The clause provides that the seats shall be in the proportion of not less than one seat to every two assistants employed in each room. I have an Amendment which provides that the proportion shall be not
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  less than one seat to every three assistants.
  Amendment moved—
  "In line 12, to leave out 'two' and insert 'three.'"—(The Duke of Westminster.)
  On Question, agreed to.
  Drafting Amendment agreed to.
  THE EARL OF CAMPERDOWN: The clause enacts that the employer shall provide seats behind the counter "and" in the show-rooms. I presume the noble Duke means behind the counter "or" in the show-rooms, otherwise he will have a double set of seats.
  THE EARL OF MAYO: There are assistants both behind the counter and in the show-rooms. These are two different departments altogether.
  Clause 1, as amended, agreed to.
  Clause 2:—
  THE EARL OF WEMYSS: I should like to know from my noble friend whether, when there is not sufficient room between the counter and the wall for seats to be placed, the shopkeeper will have to take another shop.
  THE CHAIRMAN OF COMMITTEES (The Earl of MORLEY): The clause to which the noble Earl refers has been passed.
  THE EARL OF WEMYSS: Then I will raise the point on the Third Reading.
  Clause 2, agreed to.
  Clause 3:—
  LORD RIBBLESDALE: I beg to move an Amendment to this clause consequential upon the Instruction to include Scotland, and to which your Lordships have agreed.
  Amendment moved—
  "In page 1, line 19, to leave out 'shall extend to England and Ireland only, and.'"—(Lord Ribblesdale.)
  THE LORD PRIVY SEAL (Viscount CROSS): After the decision of the House the other night with regard to England and Ireland, it is quite clear that Scotland must be inserted.
  On Question, "That the words proposed to be omitted stand part of the clause," resolved in the negative.
  Clause 3, as amended, agreed to.
  Clause 4, amended and agreed to.
  Bill re-committed to the Standing Committee, and to be printed as amended. (No. 166.) (Title altered to "Seats for Shop Assistants Bill.")

QUESTIONS.

  KINGSTOWN HARBOUR.
  LORD CLONBROCK: My Lords, I beg to ask whether Her Majesty's Government are aware that the staff of the harbour-master of Kingstown has been reduced by the Harbour Commissioners, in spite of his repeated representations, to such an extent as to render it quite inadequate for the due discharge of his official duties; and, if so, whether they are satisfied as to the security to life and property afforded to vessels entering and leaving that harbour, or using it either as a harbour of refuge or in the ordinary course of trade. The Harbour Commissioners of Kingstown are appointed by the Lord Lieutenant of Ireland, and are empowered by statute to make bye-laws for the regulation of the harbour. The harbour-master is also appointed by the Lord Lieutenant, and has certain duties specified by Statute to perform, subject always to the regulations of the Harbour Commissioners. But in order to properly perform his duties it stands to reason that he must be supplied with an adequate staff. Of late years, owing to the acceleration of the mail service, the hours of duty of his staff have been considerably increased, for, as part of their duties consists in securing a fair way for the incoming and outgoing mail-boats, the men are practically engaged from about four o'clock in the morning till about nine o'clock in the evening. Before the last acceleration, the harbour-master's staff consisted of six boatmen, and by working alternately long and short days he was able to have four men always on duty. But since the acceleration owing to the increased hours it became necessary to divide the men into two reliefs, leaving only three men on duty at a time. This number the present harbour-master, Captain Crofton, from his professional experience, deemed to be quite inadequate for the due discharge of his official duties, and accordingly he deemed it his duty to express this opinion to the Harbour Commissioners, and asked that his staff might be increased. Some correspondence ensued, and the result has
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  been that his staff is now reduced to four men, leaving only two on duty at one time. At Holyhead, which is under the Marine Department of the Board of Trade, the harbour-master has six boatmen constantly on duty, although his duties are not so arduous as those of the harbour-master of Kingstown. He has no night work, nothing to do with the arrival and departure of the mail steamers, and Holyhead is not, like Kingstown, a yachting station. But Captain Crofton represented that if inadequate for ordinary duty, his staff, if so reduced, would be still more unable to cope with emergencies which might at any time arise. He pointed out that in heavy weather it would be necessary to put one of his men on board any vessel entering the harbour to take charge of her, and bring her up to her moorings. It does not require much knowledge of nautical matters to know that with only two men in a boat neither can leave her. He was then told that in case of emergency he might draw men from the engineers' staff. This he showed to be impracticable, as landsmen in a boat in a heavy sea would be only in the way, and, moreover, as the working hours of the engineers' staff were shorter than those of his, he might not be able to get the extra hands just when most wanted. Finding that the Harbour Commissioners, although a lay body without any nautical experience, were not disposed to listen to arguments founded on experience, he requested them to send the correspondence to the Lord Lieutenant. This they refused to do. He thereupon, thinking that, as he had been appointed by a former Lord Lieutenant, he was responsible to his Excellency, he addressed a communication to the Lord Lieutenant himself, and was informed in reply that the Lord Lieutenant had been advised that he had no power to interfere with the regulations of the Harbour Commissioners. It appears the Treasury have also no power to interfere. Encouraged apparently by this immunity from all criticism, and resenting the fact that Captain Crofton could not concur in views which his professional experience forbade him to adopt, the Commissioners have assumed towards him a most dictatorial and overbearing tone. They have done their best to weaken his authority over his men, by sending officials down to give instructions without any reference to the harbour-master, and they have done everything in their power to

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  make his position an intolerable one. Among other acts of petty persecution, they have lately curtailed his leave of absence on the ground that, taking his pay into account, he ranks as a third-class clerk. Captain Crofton is a retired captain in Her Majesty's Navy, and has held his present appointment for twenty-two years. He was appointed by the Duke of Marlborough, with instructions to co-operate in every way with the authorities. This he has done, and no complaint has been made against him. He is a man of most punctual and regular habits, and has always been most zealous in the discharge of his duties. I have brought this matter forward, not only in the interest of Captain Crofton, who is a near relative of mine, but also on public grounds. It appears to me to be a perilous state of things that the harbour should be left under the control of a board of laymen, who refuse to listen to the representations of an experienced naval officer. I cannot think that Her Majesty's Government can approve of this, and I feel sure that the owners of vessels frequenting this port would be most apprehensive as to the safety of their vessels if they knew that the staff of the harbour-master, on whom they must rely for the protection of their interests, has been reduced to such an extent that the security to life and property afforded to vessels entering and leaving the harbour is of a most inadequate character.
  THE EARL OF CLANWILLIAM: My Lords, the behaviour of the Harbour Commissioners towards the harbour-master of Kingstown has been outrageous; there is no other word for it. They have reduced his staff without asking his opinion, and, what is more, there is nobody to whom he can appeal for redress. On one occasion they sent to say that they intended to reduce his staff by one out of two, and asked which man he wished to keep. The harbour-master replied giving the name of the man he wished to retain, but the Harbour Commissioners discharged that man and kept the one whom the harbour-master said should be dismissed. That shows the state of things that has been going on, and how these Commissioners do their work. I do not suppose you could find a similar case in any Government Depart-
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  ment either in England or in Ireland. I have no doubt that the motive of the Commissioners is economy, but I think it is a very mistaken one. It will be impossible during the winter time for the staff to properly perform their duties, and if, from any failure on the part of the harbour-master to afford the necessary assistance to vessels running in in distress or in a gale of wind, those vessels have to incur demmurage, the Government will be responsible. I hope the whole subject will be fully inquired into, and that the Harbour Commissioners will be called upon to give evidence before an independent Committee of experts, who shall form their opinion on the matter.
  THE EARL OF DENBIGH: My Lords, I am afraid I cannot now go into any of the questions which have been raised by the noble Lords who have spoken. I can only give the House the formal answer which I have been instructed to give by the Treasury, and which has just been sent down to me. This is a matter which comes under the direction of the Treasury, and not under the Irish Office. The Commissioners of the Harbour, and not the harbour-master, are, of course, responsible for the management of the harbour. The staff was re-arranged early in this year. The Commissioners of Kingstown Harbour considered that if the harbour-master took a more active part in the discharge of his duties the staff might be reduced from twelve to eleven. The harbour-master was instructed to report immediately any case in which the authorised staff was proved to be insufficient. No such instance has been reported. The Commissioners are satisfied that, if the harbour-master properly carries out the instructions given to him, there is no danger whatever to life or property in the harbour. The noble Earl (the Earl of Clanwilliam) pointed out that there was a difficulty in ascertaining to whom the harbour-master was entitled to appeal in order to obtain redress. In the absence of the noble and learned Lord, the Lord Chancellor of Ireland, I cannot express any opinion, but I will make inquiries into the matter if the noble Earl desires.
  LORD CLONBROCK: I do not consider the answer of the noble Lord at all satisfactory. I think the Harbour Commissioners have treated the Kingstown harbour-master very badly, and while

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  they have never made any complaint against, are now trying to indirectly throw a slur on his professional capacity in order to hide their own shortcomings. I regard that as most unworthy conduct on their part.
  THE MARQUESS OF LONDONDERRY: My Lords, listening to this matter as an outsider, and looking at it from an impartial point of view, I consider the answer of the Treasury unsatisfactory to a degree. To my mind the question resolves itself into one of two things—either the harbour-master is competent or he is incompetent. If he is incompetent, the sooner he is dismissed the better; but if he is competent—and I gather that he is, seeing that no complaint has been made against him—it does appear that a system of petty tyranny has been directed against him, either to hunt him out of his berth or to make his life so unpleasant that he would have to retire. I think my noble friend is entitled to a more satisfactory answer. The noble Earl who has replied to my noble friend has the highest sense of justice and honour, and I do not think he would tolerate such tyranny against an official under the Department with which he is connected. I quite understand that he has given the best answer he is able to give. So far as I can gather, the Kingstown harbour-master has done nothing to merit the censure of the Commissioners, and there has never been any complaint against him. If my noble friend takes my advice, he will not let the question drop, but will draw further attention to the matter.
  LORD CLONBROCK: In conformity with the advice of my noble friend and with the suggestion of my noble and gallant friend, Lord Clanwilliam, I will call attention to the subject again, and move for a Committee of Inquiry.
  House adjourned at a quarter-past Five of the o'clock, till To-morrow, half-past Ten of the o'clock.