HL Deb 04 July 1899 vol 73 cc1394-7

Order of the day for the Third Reading read.

Moved— That the Bill be now read 3a."—(The Vice-President of the Council.)

On Question, agreed to.

Bill read 3a, accordingly, with the Amendments.

Drafting Amendments agreed to.

THE MARQUESS OF RIPON

I suppose the Amendments which the noble Duke has proposed are all drafting Amendments, but no notice whatever has been given of them, and they are not on the Paper.

THE LORD PRESIDENT OF THE COUNCIL (The Duke of DEVONSHIRE)

In reply to the noble Marquess, I think I can safely say that all the Amendments I have proposed are drafting Amendments, with the exception, possibly, of one which has been suggested to me on behalf of the County of Middlesex. At present there appears to be some doubt whether the County Council of Middlesex would be entitled to be heard before the Commissioners upon a proposal which has been embodied in the Bill. It refers to the question of compensation for any part of the County of Middlesex which may be taken away.

LORD TWEEDMOUTH

I think it is worthy of notice that the noble Duke now proposes to give to the County Council of Middlesex the right to be heard, which he refused to give to the London County Council. I do not think the noble Duke is treating the County Council of London justly.

THE DUKE OF DEVONSHIRE

The case is quite a different one. The County Council of London has the right to be heard before the Commissioners and the Committee of the Privy Council in any matter in which it is interested. What the noble Lord opposite desired was that the London County Council should be heard in cases in which that body was not interested.

LORD TWEEDMOUTH

The London County Council is interested in every scheme promulgated under this Bill, which applies to the County of London. All the proposed boroughs are within the County of London, and, moreover, the London County Council is obliged to find the money for the expense of the schemes.

THE DUKE OF DEVONSHIRE

I have not the slightest doubt but that the County Council will be heard in every case where it can show that it is interested. What we refused to give to the London County Council was power to express its opinion in matters in which it was not interested.

THE LORD ARCHBISHOP OF CANTERBURY

I have placed upon the Paper an amendment to Clause 22, which provides that the election of churchwardens for the ecclesiastical parish remaining attached to a mother church shall be vested in the inhabitants of such ecclesiastical parish. I should be glad to know if the noble Duke the Lord President has any remarks to make upon this Amendment. I shall then he able to judge whether or not it will be necessary for me to move it.

THE DUKE OF DEVONSHIRE

Instructions will be given to the Commissioners to the effect that their general policy ought to be to vest the appointment of churchwardens in the inhabitants of the ecclesiastical parishes. I trust that that will satisfy the right rev. Prelate, because it is considered that the Amendment which he proposes will cause inconvenience, chiefly in consequence of the indefinite meaning to be attached to the expression "Mother Church."

THE LORD ARCHBISHOP OF CANTERBURY

My Lords, I am quite satisfied with what the noble Duke has said. I believe that if the instructions to which he has referred are given, my object will be achieved. I do not propose, therefore, to move the Amendment.

The Earl of PORTSMOUTH

had the following Amendment upon the Paper: After Clause 23 to insert as new clause: 'The members of borough cooncils, borough treasurers, and town clerks, during the time that they hold office under this Act shall enjoy exemption from service on all juries.'

THE DUKE OF DEVONSHIRE

The Earl of Portsmouth, I understand, is not in his place to move this Amendment, but it could not he accepted in its present. form. I am willing, however, that an Amendment in the following terms should be inserted— Members of a council of a borough, and the town clerk and treasurer for the time being of a borough, shall be exempt from serving on any jury summoned in the County of London. The noble Earl's Amendment would make them exempt from serving on juries no matter where those juries were summoned.

THE MARQUESS OF RIPON

Is there any precedent for such an exemption? Perhaps the noble and learned Lord on the Woolsack can inform us.

THE LORD CHANCELLOR (The Earl of HALSBURY)

I confess that the acceptance of ally such Amendment as the one which the noble Duke has read comes upon me by surprise. I entertain considerable doubt in regard to it as a matter of form, and it seems to me entirely outside the purview of this Bill, in addition to which it is an alteration of the general Jury Law which I think requires consideration.

THE DUKE OF DEVONSHIRE

I had received advice in a contrary sense to that expressed by the noble and learned Lord; but if the noble and learned Lord is of opinion that this Amendment is not with- in the scope of the Bill, I will not move it.

Bill passed, and returned to the Commons.

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