Lords Sitting of 28 February 1899

Preamble
THE LORD CHANCELLOR look his seat upon the Woolsack at Four of the clock.

PRIVATE BILL BUSINESS.
THE LORD CHANCELLOR THE LORD CHANCELLOR acquainted the House that the Clerk of the Parliaments had laid upon the Table the Certificate from the Examiners that the further Standing Orders applicable to the following Bill have been complied with:—
Great Grimsby Street Tramways [H.L]
The same was ordered to lie upon the Table.

MERSEY DOCKS AND HARBOUR (PILOTAGE) BILL [H.L.]
Petition for additional provision, of the Mersey Docks and Harbour Board; together with proposed amendments and clauses annexed thereto; read, and referred to the Examiners.
GAINSBOROUGH URBAN DISTRICT COUNCIL (GAS) BILL [H.L.]
Petition for additional provision, of Gainsborough Urban District Council; together with proposed amendment annexed thereto; read, and referred to the Examiners.
ALL SAINTS' CHURCH (CARDIFF) BILL [H.L.]
Committed: The Committee to be proposed by the Committee of Selection.
LOUGHBOROUGH AND SHEEPSHED RAILWAY BILL [H.L.]
Committed: The Committee to be proposed by the Committee of Selection.
MARYPORT HARBOUR BILL [H.L.]
Committed: The Committee to be proposed by the Committee of Selection.
LONDON AND SOUTH WESTERN RAILWAY BILL [H.L.]
To be read a second time on Tuesday next.
CAMBRIDGE UNIVERSITY AND TOWN GAS BILL [H.L.]
Read the second time.
NORTHERN ASSURANCE COMPANY BILL [H.L.]
Read the second time.
SOUTH STAFFORDSHIRE TRAMWAYS BILL [H.L.]
Read the second time.
WESTON-SUPER-MARE, CLEVEDON, AND PORTISHEAD TRAMWAYS COMPANY (LIGHT RAILWAY EXTENSIONS) BILL [H.L.]
Read the second time.
OYSTERMOUTH RAILWAY OR TRAMROAD BILL [H.L.]
Read the second time.
DOUGLAS AND SANQUHAR RAILWAY BILL [H.L.]
The Chairman of Committees informed the House, That the promoters do not intend to proceed further with the Bill: Ordered that the Bill be not further proceeded with.
GREAT EASTERN RAILWAY (AMENDMENT OF LONDON, TILBURY, AND SOUTHEND RAILWAY ACT, 1898) BILL [H.L.]
The Chairman of Committees informed the House, That the promoters do not intend to proceed further with the Bill: Ordered that the Bill be not further proceeded with.
RETURNS, REPORTS, ETC.
  TRADE REPORTS.
  Miscellaneous Series: Reports on Subjects of General and Commercial Interest: No. 496. Commercial Education in Switzerland: Presented (by Command), and ordered to lie on the Table.

  SUPERANNUATION.
  Treasury Minute, dated 18th February 1899, declaring that professional or other peculiar qualifications not ordinarily to be acquired in the public service are required for the due and efficient discharge of the duties of Professor of Botany and of Professor of Geology, Royal College of Science, Dublin.
  Laid before the House (pursuant to Act), and ordered to lie on the Table.

  DISEASES OF ANIMALS ACTS, 1894 AND 1896.
  Order, dated 23rd February 1899, prohibiting the conveyance of animals by the steamship "Hindustan."
  Laid before the House (pursuant to Act), and ordered to lie on the Table.

  BUILDING SOCIETIES.
  Fourth Annual Report by the Chief Registrar of Friendly Societies of the proceedings of the Registrars under the Building Societies Acts; with an abstract of the annual accounts and statements of societies for the year 1898:
  Laid before the House (pursuant to Act), and ordered to lie on the Table.

  METROPOLIS MANAGEMENT ACTS AMENDMENT (BYE-LAWS) BILL.
  Motion made, and Question proposed—
  "That this House do now resolve itself into Committee on this Bill."—(Lord Monkswell.)
  THE CHAIRMAN OF COMMITTEES (The Earl of MORLEY): My Lords, before the House goes into Committee on this Bill, I should like to call your Lordships' attention to what will be the effect of the Bill. If this Bill becomes law you will not be able to alter a single drain, or
  756
  part of a drain, in your house without sending plans and sections to the sanitary authority of the district. I venture to think that that is carrying local supervision somewhat far, and to an extent which might prove extremely oppressive. In matters concerning the connection of individual drains with the public sewer, I think you are absolutely right in compelling persons to deposit plans and sections with the local authority, but I do not agree that, where only a small alteration to a drain in a house is proposed, it should be necessary to send plans and sections to the local authority. We know very well what local surveyors are. Some may be very complacent, while others may be very difficult to deal with, and under this Bill a very small alteration may involve a great deal of difficulty and unnecessary expense. I think the Bill ought to go before the Standing Committee, where it could be examined more minutely than is possible in this House.
  LORD MONKSWELL: My Lords, all this was said against the Bill last year, and it was sent to the Standing Committee. It was well thrashed out in the Committee, and certain words were introduced which I am going to introduce to-day, and which we considered sufficient to meet the case. But if the noble Earl thinks it necessary that the Bill should go to the Standing Committee, I will not raise any objection. I might mention, however, that these bye-laws are subject to the sanction of a Government Department, and might be modified by that Department in such a way as to meet the objections of the noble Earl.
  THE LORD PRIVY SEAL (Viscount CROSS): Surely there is no hurry in this matter. I do not see any reason why the Bill should not go to the Standing Committee in the ordinary way.
  LORD MONKSWELL: Last year the Government Departments could not make up their minds upon it, and it took several months for them to give their sanction to the Bill, the result being that the Bill did not, for want of time, pass through the House of Commons. I think it is desirable that it should pass your Lordships' House as soon as possible this Session, but if the noble Earl wishes it to go to the Standing Committee I cannot raise any objection.
  THE LORD CHANCELLOR (The Earl of HALSBURY): My Lords, the Bill ought to go to the Standing Committee in the ordinary course of things. It is not for the noble Earl, the Chairman of Committees, to give reasons why it should not go to the Standing Committee, because that is the ordinary procedure. The proper course for the noble Earl to take, if he does not think the Bill ought to go to the Standing Committee, is to show why it should not be so referred. This is an uninteresting subject, and I am afraid that in consequence a good many Bills of this sort have passed with examination. From information which has come to my knowledge, I am a little jealous about this Bill passing your Lordships' House without going to the Standing Committee. I have every confidence in the Government Departments and the county councils, under whose control the great sewers of the metropolis are placed, and I would desire to aid and assist them in every way in my power, but I do not think people who desire to make very small alterations in the drains at their houses should be compelled to send plans and sections to the local authority. I certainly think the Bill ought to go to the Standing Committee.
  LORD MONKSWELL: I do not raise any objection to that course being adopted, but I thought it was unnecessary as the Bill went before the Standing Committee last year, and was thoroughly thrashed out by them.
  THE LORD CHANCELLOR OF IRELAND (Lord ASHBOURNE): I understand that the noble Lord has introduced the Bill without the safeguards which were put in it by the Standing Committee last year, but that he proposes now to put in those safeguards by Amendment.
  LORD MONKSWELL: Yes. I wish, with your Lordships' permission, to Move Amendments which will make this Bill precisely the same as the one which passed your Lordships' House last year.
  THE EARL OF CAMPERDOWN: May I ask the noble Lord why ho introduced the Bill this Session in a different shape to the one which passed this House last Session? Personally, I cannot see the use of the Standing Committee if Bills are not to be referred to it. Moreover, one often hears great exception taken in this House to Bills not being submitted to the Standing Committee.
  LORD MONKSWELL: I do not think the noble Earl quite understood me. This Bill was submitted to the Standing Committee, and fully considered by them last year.
  THE EARL OF CAMPERDOWN: It ought to be referred to the Standing Committee again this year.
  LORD MONKSWELL: I was under the impression, as the Bill was considered last year, and certain Amendments made, that your Lordships would not desire to take up the time of the Standing Committee on the matter again this year.
  THE LORD CHANCELLOR: May I remind the noble Lord that we are not in Committee, and that he is not entitled to speak more than once.
  THE EARL OF CAMPERDOWN: I have not had an answer to my question yet.
  Question put, and agreed to.
  House resolved itself into Committee.

  CLAUSE 1.
  Motion made, and Question proposed—
  "That Clause 1 stand part of the Bill."—(Lord Monkswell.)
  THE EARL OF CAMPERDOWN: On Clause 1, I should like to repeat the question which I asked just now—namely, why was it that this Bill was introduced this year in a different form to that in which it passed the Standing Committee last year?
  LORD MONKSWELL: I explained the reason when I moved the First Reading of this Bill. It was pure inadvertence on my part. With regard to the Amendment which substitutes the Local Government Board for the Home Office as the authority to sanction these bye-laws, I was not at all sure what course the Government Departments undertook to take. It seemed to me more respectful to the Departments concerned to let them say again this year what their final decision was. I did not think it was important to insert a provision as to who should be the sanctioning authority in respect of those byelaws.
  Question put.
  Clause 1 agreed to.

  CLAUSE 2.
  Amendment proposed—
  "Clause 2, page 1, line 17, after ('section ') insert ('except as to alteration of drains in case of emergency')."—(Lord Monkswell.)
  LORD MONKSWELL: My Lords, these words which I now propose to add to Clause 2 were the words added by the Standing Committee last year.
  Question put—
  "That these words be here inserted."
  Motion agreed to.
  Question put—
  "That Clause 2, as amended, stand part of the Bill."
  Motion agreed to.
  New clause proposed—

  AMENDMENT OF 18 AND 19 VICT., c. 120, FOR PURPOSES OF BYELAWS UNDER ACT.
  "3. For the purpose of the byelaws under this Act, and of such byelaws under the Metropolis Management Acts as are referred

  SCHEDULE.

  Session and Chapter.

  Short Title.

  Extent of Transfer of Byelaws.

  18 & 19 Vict. c. 120

  Metropolis Management Act, 1855

  Section 138 of the Act of 1855 and section 83 of the Act of 1862. Byelaws for the guidance, direction, and control of vestries and district boards and all other persons in relation to the levels, dimensions, construction, alteration, maintenance, ventilation, and cleansing of sewers, and for securing the proper connection and intercommunication of the sewers of the several parishes and districts, and their communications with the main sewers vested in the London County Council, and generally for the guidance, direction, and control of vestries and district boards in the exercise of their powers and duties in relation to sewerage.

  25 & 26 Vict. c. 102

  Metropolis Management Amendment Act, 1862

  18 & 19 Vict. c. 120

  Metropolis Manage-Act, 1855

  Section 202. Byelaws for regulating the material of the pavement and roadway of new streets and roads, and the dimensions, form, and mode of construction, and the keeping, cleansing, and repairing of the pipes, drains, and other means of communicating with sewers and the traps and apparatus connected there with.

  —(Lord Monkswell.)

  Question put. Motion agreed to. Bill re-committed to the Standing Committee: and to be printed as amended. (No. 14.)
  to in the Schedule to this Act, section 202 of the Metropolis Management Act, 1855, shall be read and have effect as if the Local Government Board were therein mentioned instead of one of Her Majesty's Principal Secretaries of State."—(Lord Monkswell.)
  LORD MONKSWELL: My Lords, this Clause was put in by the Standing Committee. I am not in the least concerned with the clause, but I am given to understand that it is one which has recommended itself to the Home Office and the Local Government Board. The Question at issue is, whether the Home Office or the Local Government Board should sanction these byelaws. I move that this clause be inserted.
  Question put—
  "That this Clause he here inserted."
  Motion agreed to.
  Motion made and Question proposed—
  "At the end of the Bill insert the following schedule:
  House adjourned at forty minutes after Four of the clock, to Thursday next, at half-past Ten of the clock.