Lords Sitting of 21 February 1899

Preamble
THE LORD CHANCELLOR THE LORD CHANCELLOR took his seat upon the Woolsack at Four of the clock.

PRIVATE BILL BUSINESS.
THE LORD CHANCELLOR THE LORD CHANCELLOR acquainted the House that the Clerk of the Parliaments had laid upon the Table the Certificates from the Examiners that the further Standing Orders applicable to the following Bills had been complied with—
Airdrie and Coatbridge Water [H.L.]
South Essex Water [H.L.]
The same were ordered to lie upon the Table.
VOL. LXII [FOURTH SERIES.]

TRANSVAAL MORTGAGE LOAN AND FINANCE COMPANY BILL [H.L.]
To be read a second time on Tuesday the 7th of March next.
ALL SAINTS' CHURCH (CARDIFF) BILL [H.L.]
Read a second time.
LOUGHBOROUGH AND SHEEPSHED RAILWAY BILL [H.L.]
Read a second time.
MARYPORT HARBOUR BILL [H.L.]
Read a second time.
HOUSES OF LORDS AND COMMONS PERMANENT STAFF.
Message from the Commons that they concur in the Resolution of this House communicated to them on the 17th instant on the subject of the Houses of Lords and Commons Permanent Staff, as desired by this House.
RETURNS, REPORTS, ETC.
  EDUCATION.
  List of School Boards and School Attendance Committees in England and Wales.
  COLONIES (ANNUAL) 1898. (No. 257.) COCOS-KEELING AND CHRISTMAS ISLANDS.
  Report on the annual visit, for 1898.
  IRISH LAND COMMISSION (JUDICIAL RENTS).
  Return for the month of June 1898.
  STATISTICS.
  Statistical abstract for the principal and other foreign countries in each year from 1887 to 1896–97 (as far as particulars can be stated). Twenty-fifth number.
  RAILWAYS (AUTOMATIC COUPLINGS).
  Memorandum by F. J. S. Hopwood, C.B., C.M.G., Assistant Secretary to the Board of Trade, upon the use of automatic couplings on railway stock, with special reference to American experience.

  NAVY (ESTIMATES).
  I. Estimates, 1899–1900; with explanation of differences;

  II. Statement of the First Lord of the Admiralty, explanatory of the Navy Estimates, 1899–1900.

  ARMY (RECRUITING).
  Annual report by the Inspector-General of Recruiting for 1898.
  Presented (by Command), and ordered to lie on the Table.

  SUPERANNUATION.
  Treasury Minute, dated 10th February 1899, declaring that Francis Bailey, postman, Woodford Green, was appointed without a civil service certificate through inadvertence on the part of the head of his Department; Laid before the House (pursuant to Act), and ordered to lie on the Table.
NEW BILL.
  MERCHANT SHIPPING ACT, 1894, AMENDMENT BILL [H.L.]
  A Bill to amend the Merchant Shipping Act, 1894—Was presented by the Lord Muskerry; Read a first time; and to be printed. [No. 11.]

  MERCHANT SEAMEN.
  LORD MUSKERRY: My Lords, I beg to move to resolve—
  "That it is expedient that the Board of Trade should be recommended to approve the certificate of discharge mentioned in section 128 of the Merchant Shipping Act, 1894, in a form similar to that sanctioned by the Local Government Board, under section 43 of Act 1 of 1859 of the Legislative Council of India, or some other form which shall constitute a continuous record of employment and character, in place of the form now approved by the Board of Trade."
  The form of certificate mentioned in this Resolution is one that is very much desired by the masters and officers of the Mercantile Marine, and it is one that is very much needed. When I alluded to these discharges last year the noble Earl who represents the Board of Trade in the House in reply stated that he thought there were two safeguards. The one was that if the master used adequate care in looking over the discharges when

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  the men signed on lie could always judge what were the qualifications of the various seamen. I fancy the noble Earl is not aware of what occurs at a shipping office when a master is discharging his crew. When the master, in discharging, declines to mark the certificate either "good" or "very good," he is told in more or less flowery language that he may go to another place—not the House of Commons—and that he may keep the certificate and frame it if he likes as it could be done without. The seaman then goes ashore and has what he regards as a very good time, and when he gets to the end of his money he turns up to ship again. When he comes before whoever is engaging the men he produces his former certificates, some of them marked "good" and some of them marked "very good," and when ho is asked why such a long time has elapsed from the date of the latest certificate he simply replies that he has lost the more modern certificate, that it has been stolen, or that he has been employed on shore. Of course, your Lordships know that by laying a large sum he could get a copy of the certificate from the Shipping Office, but that would take some days, and as there is generally very little time to spare when the master is shipping a crew, the man is engaged, and it is only when the ship gets to sea that the officers find what a bad hand he is. Then with regard to the second safeguard, the noble Earl mentioned that in the Act of last year the Surveying officers of the Board of Trade had power to prevent a vessel going to sea if she was not adequately manned, and he thought it would be found in practice that where men had signed on who were not competent seamen, that in those cases the surveying officers would consider the ship as under-manned, and consequently unsafe, and prevent her going to sea in that condition. I fail to see how this is a safeguard at all, and I would suggest to the noble Earl that he should bring in a Bill to amend that law and give the Board of Trade
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  Surveyors some basis to go upon in judging whether the crew of a ship are competent or not to take their vessel to sea. The continuous certificate of discharge would be a very great safeguard, and it is one that would be welcomed by all the well-conducted members of the profession. It would be a very great check on the rowdies, and it would be an aid to discipline, which is very much wanted indeed in the Mercantile Navy. A shipmaster, writing to me on the subject, says that cooks and stewards are his bugbear. He states that on his last voyage the cook and steward did not turn up, and the ship was detained four hours at sea until a Board of Trade official went on shore to get others to fill their places. The new men joined the ship, worked four days, and then demanded their pay, saying that they did not intend to go across the Atlantic in a light ship. They simply signed' the Articles in order to get as many days' pay in as possible. On appealing to the Superintendent of the Mercantile Marine the master states that he was recommended to pay the men their wages and get clear of them, as there was no punishment in cases of this kind. The system of continuous discharge, if in book form, would show these men up and prevent this sort of thing occurring in the future. The writer of this letter winds up by saying—
  "God send the Board of Trade some sense, that they may protect the captains and officers. The men are now treated like babies by the Board of Trade."
  I have a great number of extracts of a similar kind. The principal reason why these rowdies have such power is that the same law which applies on shore does not apply on board. If we read the General Offences against Discipline in the Official Log we find that nothing short of an assault on an officer and a refusal to do duty are subject to punishment. At the present moment there is no hold on a seaman. He gets his certificate voyage by voyage, and as there is no record as to his past he does

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  practically what he likes. Another master says—
  "By adopting a system of continuous discharge, similar to that in force for Lascar crews, I am confident that in the course of a short time we should see a change for the better in obtaining men to join our ships either in the capacity of sailors or firemen. What is needed is more severe punishment for outrageous misconduct and self-created incapacity for duty. It is no kindness to our sailors to smile at their consistent drunkenness, put them into their bunks incapacitated, and simply, by the Board of Trade regulations, count heads and send the ship to sea with perhaps only three sober men on board. When you consider that these three sober men have to take charge of the vessel until the others are fit to relieve them and do the work, it is a wonder that a larger number of accidents do not occur. Now, with a continuous discharge system a great deal, if not all, of the present abuses would in course of time be eradicated."
  I will describe the system of continuous discharge which has been very successfully adopted in India. On the one side is the certificate of service giving the birthplace and a description of the marks on the holder's person. That is wanted very much, because it is no uncommon thing for a man to ship with another person's certificate. There are no means at the present time of preventing this. On the other side of the certificate there are 19 places for the entry of the names of ships, the port of engagement, the port of discharge, the character, ability, and the conduct of the seaman, and also the master's signature. After that, what are called original second issues and original third issues are issued, each of which have places for 19 entries of different voyages. There is one other suggestion I should like to make. I should like to suggest that the noble and learned Lord on the Woolsack, or one other noble and learned Lord, should bring in a Short Bill to provide that ill all cases brought before coroners and magistrates which are connected purely with nautical affairs some properly qualified member of the nautical profession, or someone who is thoroughly conversant with seafaring matters, should attend either to act as an assessor or adviser. We know, my Lords, there is a feeling amongst the nautical profession that on many occasions very great injustice has been done owing to the absence from these inquiries of
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  properly qualified members of the nautical profession, and owing to the ignorance of nautical matters on the part of the Courts before whom these cases come. I beg to move the resolution standing in my name on the Paper.
  THE PARLIAMENTARY SECRETARY TO THE BOARD OF TRADE (The Earl of DUDLEY): My Lords, before saying anything with regard to the subject which my noble Friend has raised, I should like in the first place to thank him for his courtesy in having postponed the Motion at my request—a request, my Lords, which was necessitated by an attack of influenza. I have no wish to take exception in any way to the general point of view expressed by the noble Lord. The subject which he has raised to-day is by no means a new one. The Royal Commission upon Loss of Life at Sea recommended in very strong language that some form of continuous discharge, such as that which my noble Friend wishes to see adopted, should be enforced, and evidence was given also in that direction both before the Manning Committee and before the Committee over which I presided two years ago. I do not think there is the smallest doubt that theoretically, at any rate, a discharge in book form, in which continuous record of service and character could be kept, would be convenient both to the owner and to the Superintendent of the Office where the man shipped, and also would be an advantage to seamen of good character. I can assure my noble Friend that we on the Board of Trade have always done everything we could to stimulate the adoption of a discharge of this character. But beyond expressing sympathy with the proposal of my noble Friend I am afraid that at the present time I cannot go further. The Motion of the noble Lord is a little misleading. He asks that the Board of Trade should be recommended, under section 128 of the Merchant Shipping Act, 1894, to sanction this particular form of discharge. That has, my Lords, already been done. My noble Friend may have overlooked the fact, but since 1884 the Board of Trade have sanctioned a form of continuous discharge such as that which he describes. Books of that character were printed and were sent round to all the Mercantile Marine Offices throughout the kingdom, and

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  any seaman who wishes to adopt a discharge form of this character can obtain one by paying 6d. at any Mercantile Marine Office. As a matter of fact they have not been used, and since 1884 we have only sold two. I only quote that to demonstrate to my noble Friend that the non-use of the certificate of discharge which he refers to is not due to any official restriction on the part of the Board of Trade, but rather to the fact, I think, that public opinion may be not entirely in their favour, and that the men may not fully realise the advantages which would accrue from them. However, my Lords, what my noble Friend evidently desires is not that the Board of Trade should sanction this particular form of discharge, because I have already said that has been done, but that they should withdraw their sanction from every other form of discharge. Well, that is going a good deal further, and although I am not prepared to say that the Board of Trade would not attempt to put such a system in force, yet there is no doubt that there would be difficulties which would have to be considered and discussed before adopting a totally new system of that kind, and those difficulties in themselves would be sufficient to prevent my agreeing to the Motion which my noble Friend has put upon the Paper. My noble Friend did not, I think, allude to the fact that these continuous discharges are used in other countries. It is a fact that they are so used, but if he examines them he will find that in no case where they are used—I am speaking now of the forms used in Germany, Sweden, and Norway—is any provision made for a record of a man's character. They are merely records of a man's services. I think that that proves that it has been realised in those countries that if you adopt a form of discharge in book shape in which you enter a man's bad marks as well as his good marks, the men are very apt to throw them away or to lose them if they contain bad records. The result, therefore, has been that these countries have sought to overcome the difficulty by giving a man his record of conduct on a different sheet of paper, and merely include his record of service in the books. That is a point which I mention as being one which will have to be considered if we
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  adopt a system of this kind here. We should have to consider whether we should follow the precedent of other countries, or whether we should go to the full extent desired by my noble Friend. There are other difficulties which naturally would have to be considered. These books would become of some value, and the danger would have to be guarded against of men selling them and applying to the Registrar for copies, on the ground that they had lost them. I believe even now the present forms of discharge are occasionally sold and made use of by people who have no right to them. In my opinion there would be more danger of this arising if they had these forms of continuous discharge. There is another danger which would have to be considered, and that is that by a form of this kind you would be putting a great deal of power into the hands of the masters. You would, perhaps, be creating a possibility of a certain amount of petty tyranny on the part of an ill-disposed master, who, if he gave a man a bad discharge without sufficient reason, might make it exceedingly difficult for that man to get employment afterwards. As it is at present, a man when he gets a bad discharge merely tears it up in the Shipping Office, and so lax is the system under which men are engaged that masters very often pay but little attention to whether a man has got a certificate in respect of his previous voyage or not. Safeguards would, therefore, have to be provided against men, under the stress of petty friction or petty squabbles, receiving decidedly bad discharges, which would prevent them getting work in the future. My Lords, these are some of the difficulties which have, of necessity, to be considered if we are to try to put this method in force. I have merely quoted them to show my noble Friend how impossible it is for me to agree absolutely to his Motion, but I can assure him that we shall give the principle of it prompt and sympathetic consideration. I do not think there is any insuperable obstacle to an attempt being made in the direction which he desires. Under1 these circumstances, I hope he will withdraw his Motion and allow us to take the necessary steps in the matter in our own way.
  LORD MUSKERRY: My Lords, after what the noble Lord has said I have no hesitation in asking leave to withdraw my Motion, but I should like to be allowed to say that the establishment of this system of continuous discharge is the universal wish of the masters and officers of the Mercantile Marine. If any tyranny is exercised by Naval masters I fancy that the seamen would have their remedy in a Court of Law. However, my Lords, I beg to withdraw my Motion.
  Motion, by leave, withdrawn.

  SOLICITORS' BILL [H.L.]
  House to be in Committee on Friday next.
  PALATINE COURT OF DURHAM BILL [H.L.]
  House to be in Committee on Friday next.

  METROPOLIS MANAGEMENT ACTS AMENDMENT (BYE-LAWS) BILL [H.L.]
  To be read a second time on Monday next.
  House adjourned at fifty-five minutes after Four o'clock to Thursday next, at half-past Ten o'clock.