HL Deb 16 February 1899 vol 66 cc1061-73
LORD MUSKERRY

My Lords, I rise to ask a question as to the alleged ill-treatment of British subjects in Buenos Ayres, cases of which I will give to your Lordships. The Secretary of the Merchant Service Guild, a body formed to look after the interests of the masters and officers of the Mercantile Marine, received from the Guild's agent in Buenos Ayres a statement made by he Master of the s.s. "Greylands." In this statement—dated 4th July, 1898—it was set forth that two firemen, one a Belgian, and the other a Frenchman, had been for several days drinking ashore. They came on board drunk, and caused disturbances, assaulting the carpenter and watchman. On 28th May, about 7 p.m., Captain Symonds (master of the s.s. "Greylands") sent for the police. The second mate, who went for them, returned, saying that they would not come without an order from the British Consulate. The Consulate would not have been open until Monday morning. The two men came on board again on Sunday afternoon and created another disturbance, one of them striking the cook with a knuckle-duster and cutting his face open. They both went aft to the cabin door and threatened the first mate, saying that they would throw him into the dock. The same evening—Sunday—Captain Symonds states that he sent again for the police, but could not get them. About midnight the two men came on board again, and one, who had a knife, dragged the boatswain out of his bed and threatened to kill him, the other going into the forecastle and assaulting other members of the crew with a knuckle-duster. The watchman went aft and called the first mate, who came forward with the second mate and the steward to quell the disturbance. The two men fought desperately, and both were somewhat mauled before one was secured and placed in irons. The other man escaped ashore and made a report to the authorities, who then came on board without any order from the British Consul and arrested the first and second mate, the steward, the cook, and the boatswain. Captain Symonds states that he went up the same morning and paid 100 dollars to have them released. The next morning the authorities sent an order for the five of them to appear at the office of the Captain of the Port, and when they got there they were locked up, the authorities stating that one of the two firemen was severely injured and in the hospital, and subsequently stated that he was dead. To show how false such a statement was, the captain states that the man who was said to be in the hospital came on Board and packed his bag. He was prevented from taking it ashore, but went himself and deserted the ship. The other man took his bag and deserted also. On Wednesday the authorities went on board and arrested the ship's watchman, an able seaman, and the carpenter, and locked them up with the others, seven in all—the first mate, the second male, the cook, the steward, the carpenter, the watchman, and the able seaman—on the strength of the report of the two firemen who had already caused so much disturbance on board. The British Consul stated that he could do nothing, and Captain Symonds asks— Is it possible that the British Flag is not more protected than this, and are British subjects to be arrested and detained in this manner without any redress? To-day I have been to Palermo, and seen the men in prison there. They have nothing but the bare stone floor to sleep on, and only one rough blanket each, and no change of clothes except what they get from outside. The effect on the second mate is terrible already, and unless he is quickly removed I fear he will soon be dead. Well, my Lords, on the receipt of the letter containing the statements that I have just made to your Lordships, the Secretary of the Merchant Service Guild communicated with Her Majesty's Foreign Office, and the Foreign Office communicated with the Legation, and this was the reply— Foreign Office, 13th August, 1898. The Secretary, the Merchant Service Guild. Sir,—I am directed by the Marquess of Salisbury to acknowledge the receipt of your letter of the 8th inst., relative to the arrest of seven members of the crew of the s.s. 'Greylands" at Buenos Ayres. The case has been brought to his Lordship's notice, and Mr. Thornton, Her Majesty's Chargé d'Affaires at that capital, was instructed to inquire into the case. A telegram has just been received from him reporting that these men are charged with a serious assault, and are awaiting trial in prison. Bail has been allowed, but is not forthcoming. Mr. Thornton has taken the opinion of an eminent lawyer, who states that all the proceedings are strictly legal, and that the delay in trying the prisoners is due to pressure of cases in the Criminal Court. Mr. Thornton states that the acting Consul of Buenos Ayres has taken all possible steps to expedite the proceedings, and that the prisoners will be tried shortly. He adds that the prisoners are well treated.—I am, Sir, your most obedient servant, (Signed) FRANCIS BERTIE. Now, my Lords, dealing first with the statement that bail was allowed, but not forthcoming, if your Lordships will for a moment consider the case you will see how unlikely it would be for bail to be offered. These seven unfortunate subjects of Her Majesty not only were in prison, but had lost their situations. The master of the "Greylands" had to sail, and to fill up their places with others. Had bail been given, these men would have been on the street, and in self-preservation would have had to take the first berth that was offered them. No date was fixed for the trial, and they could not possibly arrange to surrender to their bail. Of course, this was well known to the British residents in Buenos Ayres, who naturally did not wish to lose their money. I now come to the second part of Mr. Thornton's letter, in which he says that he had obtained the opinion of an eminent counsel, who stated that the proceedings were legal. I do not know anything about that, my Lords, but I would remind your Lordships that when these two drunken firemen created a disturbance the captain of the "Greylands" sent, in self-defence, for the assistance of the police, who refused to come. He was obliged to order these two men to be ironed, which he was justified in doing. You may imagine that two men mad with drink would make a desperate resistance, and would not get off without some marks. One escaped, and on his application the police boarded the "Greylands" and arrested the first and second officers, the steward, the cook, and the boatswain; the latter three being, you may say, under officers and holding positions of trust on board. They took these men off to gaol, and in the morning the captain had to pay 100 dollars to get them released, which sum, as I will show you, was pocketed by one of the officials. Afterwards they were rearrested on board, together with two others, and imprisoned for four and a half months. Now, my Lords, the reason given by Mr. Thornton for the delay in trying these men was the pressure of cases in the Criminal Court. With your permission, I will read you an extract from a letter addressed by a British resident in Buenos Ayres to the Editor of the Times of Argentina. I must tell you, my Lords, that so much, indignation was aroused amongst the shipping community in Buenos Ayres in consequence of the imprisonment of these seven men, that the ship masters of that port appointed a Committee of 15 of them to see what they could do for these unfortunate men. An application was, it seems, made to the Legation as to how the case was progressing, and the answer they received was to the effect that the Fiscal Judge was indisposed and could not attend to the matter at the time. The British resident who wrote to the Times of Argentina, after commenting on the unfairness of the proceedings, goes on to say— I do not pretend to any knowledge on the mysteries of diplomacy, but I have always thought that when the Legation of any country takes a complaint in hand it is because it has the authority to do so, and the Minister would present the case to the Minister of Foreign Affairs, and thus bring it to a head at once, and without any delay. Our Minister, however, seems to adopt a different course. Why I cannot see. This is not the first time the Office over the door of which hangs the escutcheon of the British Legation has shown its weakness in matters pertaining to its jurisdiction. I am sure that I am not the only British subject in Buenos Ayres who feels indignant at the want of energy sometimes shown by Her Majesty's representatives in this city when acts of injustice have been committed towards British subjects, and I am also not the only man who thinks that if the matter were properly laid before Dr. Alcorta, Minister of Argentina's Foreign Affairs, the case would receive prompt and immediate attention, be the Fiscal Judge indisposed or not. I have also read in your paper that the Consul here states that the men are properly treated, and that the second officer was never ill. I have spoken to the gentleman who saw the prisoners on behalf of the captains, and can contradict that statement, and, moreover, can add that if the captain's assistance had not been forthcoming the life of that officer might have been in danger. I can also prove that at the second officer's request, 5 dollars 40 cents were spent for him in medicines, and that the prisoners were without beds until the Consul paid for and supplied five beds for the seven men in the prison, and that they were not brought until the captains protested to the Consulate against the ill-usage of the prisoners. I will now come, my Lords, to the last part of Mr. Thornton's letter. He adds that the prisoners were well treated. I presume that Mr. Thornton did not visit the prisoners, and did not speak from personal knowledge. I imagine ho must have got his information from the Consul, or from someone in the Consulate. Your Lordships will be able to judge for yourselves whether they were well treated or badly treated from the statement of Mr. Walter B. Ness, the second officer of the "Greylands." After giving his experiences in the endeavour which was made to quell the disturbance caused on the "Greylands" by the two firemen, Mr. Ness goes on to say— After leaving the ship to give evidence, we were taken to the Captain of the Port, made to sign our names, and were immediately locked up in the calabass, a little, dirty, smelling hole, with a lot of half-naked, filthy natives, while the two firemen were set at liberty. At eight o'clock on Monday morning we were released on the captain paying a fine of 100 dollars, which we found out afterwards was pocketed by one of the officials. The following morning we were presented with a summons each, but first took the ship out to the roads, where a competent man was placed aboard, and the mate, steward, 'bosun, carpenter, cook, ship's watchman, and myself were taken to the Prefecture Maritime, where we gave our evidence and were immediately imprisoned. While imprisoned there I suffered very much from a severe cold, for which I had medicine brought me from outside. Altogether we were imprisoned there about three or four weeks, when we were taken, to the Departimenta, where we suffered great privations, the whole seven of us being thrust into a small cell, with bare stone floor and walls, and iron shutters to the windows. To add to our dscomfort, there was a great heap of half-putrefied bones and meat in one corner, while the stone floor was simply covered with vermin. For food we got two small rolls of bread, two plates of macaroni soup, and two pieces of meat called 'toomba,' which even a hungry dog would have found it a hard job to get away with. This treatment lasted for six days, during which time, what with lying on the cold, bare, and very often damp stone floor, we were all more or less in a state of collapse. For myself, I was shivering and coughing the whole day and night, and often had a hard job to eat the miserable and not too clean pittance that was thrown to us. From the Departimenta we were taken up to Palermo, where, if our miseries were decreased in one way, they were certainly increased in many others. Here—owing to a report that the fireman the 'bosun' had beaten had succumbed to his injuries in the hospital—we were put in the salon where murderers are tried. There were 32 of us in this room, and a more cutthroat, dirty class I never want to see again. Here, certainly, everything was kept clean, and the food was increased by the addition of another roll of bread in the morning, with something which very much resembled hot rusty water, called coffee; but, no matter what it was, we were very glad of any extras. Here we still had the bare stone floor for our beds, and after a week or two here—if it had not been for the kindness of Captain Deacon in sending us up each a bed, together with our blankets and clothes—it would have fared very badly with us, I myself being completely broken down. Now, I saw a letter in the Times of Argentina, stating that the prisoners of the s.s. 'Greylands' had every comfort in prison, tobacco even being allowed them, and all they were in want of was their liberty. The person who wrote that had very little idea of the comforts of prison life. Tobacco was allowed us when we had the money to buy it, and our liberty was certainly no minor consideration. Altogether, I must say that the four months and a half I had of gaol life with robbers, murderers, and all the worst imaginable characters for my companions day by day, and the suffering and shame I endured during that time, is enough to make any Englishman's blood boil. I must tell your Lordships that the captains amongst themselves made a subscription for these unfortunate men while they were in prison. As your Lordships doubtless know, ship-masters have not very much money to spare, and therefore the amount collected could not have been very large, and it had to last these seven men for four and a half months. My Lords, that is all I have to say about the "Greylands" case, but I think your Lordships will agree with me that if the statement made by Mr. Ness and the former statements are true, there has been great injustice done towards some of Her Majesty's subjects. Now, my Lords, I will take the case of the steamer "Isleworth," which recently arrived at La Plata from Bahia Blanca. It appears that two firemen of the ship, while in an intoxicated condition, claimed some money from the captain over and above their wages, and, meeting with a refusal, became unruly to such an extent that the master found it necessary to put them in irons, as they threatened to kill him before he left the River Plate. The captain lodged a complaint at the British Consulate at Bahia Blanca, and requested that the men should be imprisoned by his order. The Consul, however, refused to do anything, and, moreover, refused to give the captain his papers if he sailed with the men in irons. The captain protested to the American Consul at that port. I cannot tell your Lordships what happened at that interview, but the result of it was that the "Isleworth," with the men still in irons, sailed for La Plata without the Consular papers. These papers, however, were sent on by rail to La Plata, which looks as if the Consul or acting Consul, or whoever was in the Consulate at the time, had realised that he had made a mistake. This does not deal exactly with ill-treatment of British sub- jects, but it bears out the complaints which have been made by various ship masters as to the way in which they are being treated by Her Majesty's Consuls in the Argentine. I will now take the last case received, that of the ss. "Ivydene." The following letter is addressed to the Secretary of the Merchant Service Guild, and is dated from Monte Video, 18th January 1898— Enclosed please find a copy of entry in official log, which Mr. Deacon, agent for the Merchant Service Guild at Buenos Ayres, advised me to forward to you, and you have my sanction to use it as you please. I intend to publish it in the American newspapers. I consider the general treatment of ship masters by the port officials and police at Buenos Ayres is a disgrace to us as Englishmen, and the general opinion of ship masters is that no satisfaction is to be got by applying to our Consul, and I have grave fears that some day a crew will be making a stand, and then it will be Englishmen with revolvers against police and swords. Somebody will get hurt. As the commander refused to read the entry in the log, I made a copy, and sent it to him by letter, so he is made acquainted with it. Just before sailing I heard that a chief engineer had been arrested on board and dragged to prison because a drunken man said he struck him. This is signed by Mr. W. J. Kilburn, and the copy of the entry in the official log of the ss. "Ivydene," at Buenos Ayres, dated 1 a.m., 1st January 1889, is as follows— This is to certify that at 1 a.m. a stranger came on board, and began a disturbance amongst the crew, and was put on shore. Afterwards, J. Donald, ordinary seaman, who was drunk, began a disturbance, and wished to fight, and whilst some of the crew were taking him forward the police on shore blew their whistles, and 15 or more of them jumped on board, greatly excited, with drawn swords, and began knocking the crew about, securing J. Donald, ordinary seaman, and C. Piens, fireman, and by force dragged them on shore. I (the master) was on the bridge when the police first appeared, and from there protested to the man who appeared to be in charge of the police against their interference. The police, then seeing H. Sohl, fireman, on the other side of the deck, and alone, rushed across and dragged him on shore, notwithstanding that I (the master) stood at the gangway, and protested against the arrest. It was only by a supreme effort and good discipline amongst officers and crew that stopped an attempt at rescue, in which some would have been hurt, if not killed. The second mate, Mr. Williams, brought the British Ensign, which we spread across the gangway, thus preventing further arrests. We hereby protest against the action of the port authorities in coming on board like a gang of infuriated pirates, and arresting three of the crew, and dragging them ashore to prison in the manner aforesaid. This entry is signed by W. J. Kilburn, master; J. W. Rigby, first mate; E. Williams, second mate; A. Leighton, third mate; J. W. Graham, first engineer; C. Tinn, second engineer; and W. Wright, third engineer. Captain Kilburn also states that he went on board Her Majesty's ship "Beagle" with the official log, and that, without reading the entry, the commander referred him to the British Consul. He went there, and was informed, he says, that the port authorities had a perfect right to board his ship as they had done, and that he had better pay the fine, which he did, amounting to 60 dollars for the three men, who had been 39 hours confined in a prison. Now, my Lords, some time ago, the master of a vessel at Liverpool summoned one of his crew for neglect of duty and using foul language. He got a conviction for the neglect of duty, but the magistrate's clerk informed the Bench that they had no power to convict for bad language, as the ship was his home, and he could use what language he liked in his home. If that is the law, then these men were taken from their home, imprisoned for 39 hours, one for being drunk, I presume, and the others for no reason whatever, and then each of them fined 20 dollars. My Lords, these 10 men—seven from the "Grey-lands," and three from the "Ivydene"—were not arrested for any offence committed on shore. They were dragged from their ships, and dragged from under the shelter of the British Flag, an insult to which neither France nor Germany would submit. I think your your Lordships will agree with me that if the statements I have read to you are true, then these ten British subjects have been infamously ill-treated. Again, if these statements are true, Her Majesty's representatives at Buenos Ayres have been grossly negligent, and have not given that attention to the interests of Her Majesty's subjects that they have a right to expect. Or, on the other hand, if these statements are not true, then Her Majesty's representatives have been grossly libelled, and those men who have signed their names to these statements should be severely punished. I think it is a case that requires the fullest investigation, and I hope the noble Marquess at the head of the Government will see his way to having a full and public inquiry. These cases are not like some which are connected with the Board of Trade, where it is nearly impossible to get officers of the Merchant Service to give evidence, for reasons that I stated to your Lordships last year. But here you have all these officers to give evidence, and, if necessary, a good number of the crews of these vessels can be found, and in addition there are 15 ship masters who could be called who were in Buenos Ayres at the time, and who have full knowledge of what took place. I would also ask the Admiralty to request the commanding officer of Her Majesty's ship "Beagle" to give his reasons for not reading the entry made in the official log and making a note of it, which I am under the impression it was his duty to do. My Lords, I now beg to ask the question of which I have given notice.

THE PRIME MINISTER AND SECRETARY OF STATE FOR FOREIGN AFFAIRS (The MARQUESS of SALISBURY)

My Lords, I readily admit that every sympathy and every assistance is due to subjects of Her Majesty who receive ill-treatment at the hands of any foreign jurisdiction. But I am bound to say that the noble Lord would have pursued a more regular course if he had communicated the matters of which he has complained to the Foreign Office before laying them before this House. I have never heard of two of these vessels before—the "Ivydene" and the "Isle-worth"—and the result is that the noble Lord comes here and makes very grave charges against Her Majesty's servants abroad, without giving us the slightest opportunity of ascertaining what the facts are, or whether there is anything to be said on the other side or not.

LORD MUSKERRY

I only received the information yesterday.

THE PRIME MINISTER

I think you might have referred it to the Foreign Office first. We have heard of the "Grey lands" case, but we have not heard of the "Isleworth" or the "Ivydene" cases, neither have we heard of the obscure Liverpool case in which the clerk to the magistrates at Liverpool seems to have used some very unauthorised expressions. I submit that in such matters, before we make a complaint to the Argentine Government, we must ascertain whether we have ground for it. What we have a right to demand from any foreign Government is that, in administering their law, they shall administer it equally, so that Her Majesty's subjects shall not be in any worse position than their own subjects, or the subjects of any foreign Power. We have not a right to demand of them that they shall administer the same law that we administer, and we have not a, right to demand that their gaols shall be as agreeable as our own gaols. What we have a right to demand is that there shall be no disadvantage in dealing with Her Majesty's subjects compared to the treatment measured out to the natives of the land. The noble Lord will observe, if he considers the story which he has unfolded, that there are always two sides to each case; one side I may, for shortness, describe as the side of the firemen, who always appear to have been the assailants, and the other the side of the crew. The firemen, in the view of the noble Lord, were always drunk, and misbehaved themselves generally, and the crew were patient martyrs, who defended themselves only to the utmost verge of necessity, and yet the local authorities have always taken the side of firemen and not the side of the crew. Her Majesty's representative, as far as I know or can observe, seems rather to have leaned in the same direction; and I gather that the commander of one of Her Majesty's ships showed very improper partiality for the view of the firemen. Now, in the case of the "Greylands," it is the representation of the noble Lord—and I have no doubt his most sincere belief—that the firemen were frightfully drunk, and came on board and gratuitously assaulted the sailors. What means have we of ascertaining and deciding between these two statements? I have no doubt, if you were to consult the firemen, they would say that the facts were exactly opposite. But we do know that one of the firemen was so ill-treated and battered that he was nearly dying, and was thought to have died. That is not an absolute presumption, but it is an indication that probably there was violence on the other side. Further, we have the statement that a distinguished lawyer was consulted on the spot, and he said that all the proceedings were perfectly regular. Of course he may have been entirely deceived, but, at all events, it is a presumption on the side of the firemen. There is a circumstance, however, which I think the noble Lord does not know, but which has been conveyed to me. At the end of the four and a half months, a most improper period of detention, I admit, these men, representing the crew side of the case, were tried and condemned by the Court to three months' imprisonment; but because they had been in prison for four and a half months no further punishment was inflicted on them, and they were at once released. The fact that the regular Court of Argentina, after hearing the evidence, condemned the crew and acquitted the firemen, must be allowed to be a considerable presumption in favour of the firemen and against the crew. I quite admit that this presumption may be repelled. I think we ought to be allowed to ask Her Majesty's representative on the spot what he has to say in regard to this case, and whether the matter presents itself to him in precisely the same light as it presents itself to the noble Lord. We should be very glad if Ave could always assume that every complaint made by a British captain was entirely justified, and that the people who deny it were wrong; but our knowledge of the wickedness of this evil world does not allow us to accept that patriotic doctrine. Before venturing to appeal to a foreign Government to set aside the action of their own Courts and condemn the action of their own officers we must go into the matter very carefully to ascertain really on which side the blame ought to be placed. I fear that even such an inquiry would not be very satisfactory. When a ship is at port, and all those who are engaged in her management are enjoying themselves, some will enjoy themselves too much, and very serious conflicts will arise; but when you come to examine into these conflicts you will be so bewildered by counter statements on one side and the other, that you will not be able to determine on which side the blame lies. This is not a case in which any native of Argentina has been preferred to a British subject. It is a case in which people who, for the time at least, were British subjects, quarrelled amongst themselves. It is a case in which the authorities had to interfere because the peace was being openly broken. All the cases mentioned by the noble Lord came into that category, and they were dealt with according to the law of the country. No irregularities seem to have been committed, and I readily admit that the Argentine law is very much worse than ours, and their gaols are much to be condemned in comparison with ours; but I do not see the international ground that we have for complaining of the treatment British subjects have received, when in reality it is only the decision as between two sets of British subjects as to who was in the right and who was in the wrong. We shall be very glad to receive from the noble Lord any statement which he may have to make, so that it may be communicated to Her Majesty's Consul on the spot, in order to receive from him and from the local authorities such observations as they may think right to make. When we receive them we shall be glad to submit them to the noble Lord for his judgment, but in the meantime I feel bound to say that it is not a case for interference on the part of Her Majesty's Government.

LORD MUSKERRY

My Lords, I would like to point out to the noble Marquess that I only read statements which had been submitted to me. I do not say they are true. They are signed by masters of British vessels and officers of British vessels, but as to their correctness I have no means of judging.

House adjourned at Twenty minutes past Five of the clock.