Lords Sitting of 14 February 1899

Preamble
THE LORD CHANCELLOR took his seat on the Woolsack at Four of the clock.

PRIVATE BILL BUSINESS.
THE LORD CHANCELLOR THE LORD CHANCELLOR acquainted the House that the Clerk of the Parliaments had laid upon the Table the Certificate from the Examiners that the Standing Orders applicable to the following Bill have been complied with: London, Walthamstow, and Epping Forest Railway.
The same was ordered to lie on the Table.
Aberdeen Corporation Bill [H.L.]; Aberdeen Harbour Bill [H.L.]; Arbroath Corporation Gas Bill [H.L.]; Barton-on-Sea Water Bill [H.L.]; Birkenhead Corporation Bill [H.L.]; Bognor Urban District Water Bill [H.L.]; Bristol Floods Prevention Bill [H.L.]; Bury Corporation Bill [H.L.]; Bury Corporation Water Bill [H.L.]; Church Stretton Water Bill [H.L.]; Clyde Navigation Bill [H.L.]; Coalville Urban District Gas Bill [H.L.]; Cobham Gas Bill [H.L.]; Colonial and Foreign Banks Guarantee Fund Bill [H.L.]; Cromer Protection Bill [H.L.]; Dumbarton Burgh Bill [H.L.]; Dundee Gas, Tramways, and Extension Bill [H.L.]; Fylde Water Bill [H.L.]; Gainsborough Urban District Council (Gas) Bill [H.L.]; Glasgow Corporation (Gas and Water) Bill [H.L.]; Glasgow Corporation (Tramways, etc.) Bill [H.L.]; Glasgow, Motherwell, and Sanquhar Railway Bill [H.L.]; Glastonbury Water Bill [H.L.]; Geat Yarmouth Corporation Bill [H.L.]; Great Yarmouth Pier Bill [H.L.] Grosvenor Chapel (London) Bill [H.L.]; Hampstead Church (Emmanuel, West End) Bill [H.L.]; Hastings Corporation Tramways Bill [H.L.]; Hastings Harbour Bill [H.L.]; Humber Conservancy Bill Bill [H.L.]; Infant Orphan Asylum Bill [H.L.]; Inverness Harbour Bill [H.L.]; Kew Bridge Bill [H.L.];
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Kirkcaldy Corporation and Tramways Bill [H.L.]; Lanarkshire (Middle Ward District) Water Bill [H.L.]; Leigh-on-Sea Urban District Council Bill [H.L.]; Llanelly Harbour and Pontardulais Railway Bill [H.L.]; London Hospital Bill H.L.]; Loughborough Corporation Bill [H.L.]; Manchester Corporation Tramways Bill [H.L.]; Mersey Docks and Harbour Board (Finance) Bill [H.L.]; Mersey Docks and Harbour Board (Pilotage) Bill [H.L.]; Mid-Kent Gas Bill [H.L.]; Moss Side Urban District Council (Tramways) Bill [H.L.]; Nene Valley Water Bill [H.L.]; Newhaven and Seaford Water Board Bill [H.L.]; Oldham Corporation Bill [H.L.]; Perth Water, Police, and Gas Bill [H.L.]; Portsmouth Corporation Bill [H.L.]; Queen's, Ferry Bridge Bill [H.L.]; Rawtenstall Corporation Bill [H.L.]; Renfrew Burgh and Harbour Extension Bill [H.L.]; Salford Corporation Bill [H.L.]; Skipton Urban District Gas Bill [H.L.]; Southampton Corporation Water Bill [H.L.]; Stockton and Middlesbrough Water Bill [H.L.]; Stretford Urban District Council (Tramways) Bill [H.L.]; Sunderland Corporation Bill [H.L.]; Wakefield Corporation Bill [H.L.]; Wallasey Tramways and Improvements Bill [H.L.]; Whitehaven Corporation Bill [H.L.]; Wick and Pulteney Harbours Bill [H.L.]; Wishaw Water Bill [H.L.]; Withington Urban District Council (Tramways) Bill [H.L.]; Wolverhampton Corporation Bill [H.L.]; Workington Corporation Water Bill [H.L.]: Presented and read first time.
Aberdeen Joint Passenger Station Bill [H.L.]; Airdrie and Coatbridge Water Bill [H.L.]; Bexhill and St. Leonards Tramroads Bill [H.L.]; Birmingham, North Warwickshire, and Stratford-upon-Avon Railway Bill [H.L.]; Brighton Marine Palace and Pier Bill [H.L.]; Bristol Gas Bill [H.L.]; Caledonian Railway (General Powers) Bill [H.L.]; Cambridge University and Town Gas Bill [H.L.]; Douglas and Sanquhar Railway Bill [H.L.]; Friends' Provident Institution Bill [H.L.]; Glasgow and South Western Railway Bill [H.L.]; Glasgow District Subway Bill [H.L.]; Great Eastern Railway (General Powers) Bill [H.L.]; Great Northern Railway Bill [H.L.]; Great Yarmouth Water Bill [H.L.]; Greenock and Port Glasgow Tramways Bill [H.L.]; Harbour and

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Dock Rates (Bristol, etc.) Bill [H.L.]; Hastings and St. Leonards Gas Bill [H.L.]; Herne Bay Water Bill [H.L.]; Knott End Railway Bill [H.L.]; Lea Bridge District Gas Bill [H.L.]; London and South-Western Railway Bill [H.L.]; Loughborough Gas Bill [H.L.]; Lowestoft Water and Gas Bill [H.L.]; Muirkirk, Mauchline, and Dalmellington Railway Bill [H.L.]; Norfolk Estuary Bill [H.L.]; North-Eastern Railway Bill [H.L.]; North Staffordshire Railway Bill [H.L.]; Northern Assurance Company Bill [H.L.]; Oystermouth Railway or Tramroad Bill [H.L.]; Paisley and Barrhead District Railway Bill [H.L.]; Port Talbot Railway and Docks Bill [H.L]; Rochdale Canal Bill [H.L.]; Rushden and Higham Ferrers District Gas Bill [H.L.]; St. Albans Gas Bill [H.L.]; St. Neots Water Bill [H.L.]; Skipton Gas Bill [H.L.]; South Essex Water Bill [H.L.]; South Hants Water Bill [H.L.]; South Staffordshire Tramways Bill [H.L.]; Stretford Gas Bill [H.L.]; Transvaal Mortgage Loan and Finance Company Bill [H.L.]; Walton-on-Thames and Weybridge Gas Bill [H.L.]; West Highland Railway Bill [H.L.]; Weston-super-Mare, Clevedon, and Portishead Tramways Company (Light Railway Extensions) Bill [H.L.]; Wolverhampton Tramways Bill [H.L.]; Yeadon and Guiseley Gas Bill [H.L.]: Presented; read first time; and referred to the Examiners.

NEW STANDING ORDER.
THE CHAIRMAN OF COMMITTEES (the EARL of MORLEY): My Lords, I beg to move the following as a new Standing Order—
"The council of any administrative county alleging in their petition that such administrative county or any part thereof may be injuriously affected by the provisions of any Bill relating to the water supply of any town or district, whether situate within or without such county, shall be entitled to be heard against such Bill."
At the present moment, under the Standing Orders of this House, a County Council has power to be heard only at the discretion of the Committee. The addition which I am now moving to the Standing Orders gives them an absolute right to be heard. This is an Amend-
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ment that has been suggested by the County Councils Association, and by several County Councils who have written to me on the subject. It brings your Lordships' Standing Orders in exact accord with those of the House of Commons, and I therefore trust your Lordships will agree to it.
THE MARQUESS OF RIPON: My Lords, I beg to thank my noble Friend the Chairman of Committees, for having moved this Motion, which will give very great satisfaction to County Councils. They have felt that the difference between the Standing Orders of this House and those of the House of Commons in this respect was somewhat unfair to them. County Councils have a deep interest in all that concerns the water supply of their districts, and I am very glad indeed that your Lordships are about to recognise that that interest gives them a right to a locus standi before Committees of this House.
Question put.
Motion agreed to.

APPOINTMENT OF COMMITTEES.

  STANDING ORDERS COMMITTEE.
  The Lords following, with the Chairman of Committees, were named of the Committee:

  Duke of Bedford.

  Duke of Marlborough.

  Marquess of Lansdowne.

  Earl Derby.

  Earl Denbigh.

  Earl Chesterfield.

  Earl Jersey.

  Earl Lauderdale.

  Earl Waldegrave.

  Earl Cadogan.

  Earl Belmore.

  Earl Harrowby.

  Earl Amherst.

  Earl Camperdown.

  Earl Wharncliffe.

  Earl de Montalt.

  Earl Carrington.

  Earl Crewe.

  Viscount Sidmouth.

  Viscount Knutsford.

  Lord Hopetoun. (Earl Hopetoun.) (Lord Chamberlain.)

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  Lord Clinton.

  Lord Zouche of Haryngworth.

  Lord Balfour.

  Lord Boyle. (Earl of Cork and Orrery.)

  Lord Ribblesdale.

  Lord Churchill.

  Lord Colchester.

  Lord Wigan. (Earl Crawford.)

  Lord Poltimore.

  Lord Kintore. (Earl Kintore.)

  Lord Belper.

  Lord Brougham and Vaux.

  Lord Fermanagh. (Earl of Erne.)

  Lord Sudley. (Earl of Arran.)

  Lord de Vesci. (Viscount de Vesci.)

  Lord Herries.

  Lord Monkswell.

  Lord Colville of Culross.

  Lord Welby.

  All Petitions relating to Standing Orders which shall be presented during the present Session referred to the Committee unless otherwise ordered.

  STANDING COMMITTEE.
  Ordered, That a Standing Committee be appointed for the consideration of such Public Bills as may be committed to it by the House.

  COMMITTEE OF SELECTION FOR THE STANDING COMMITTEE.
  Appointed: The Lords following, with the Chairman of Committees, were named of the Committee:

  Earl Cowper.

  Earl Stanhope.

  Earl Waldegrave.

  Lord Balfour.

  Lord Boyle. (Earl of Cork and Orrery.)

  Lord Ribblesdale.

  Lord Kintore. (Earl Kintore.)

  Lord Colville of Culross.

  The Committee to meet on Friday next, at a quarter before Four o'clock.

  HOUSE OF LORDS OFFICES.
  Select Committee appointed: The Lords following, with the Lord Chancellor, the Lord President, the Lord Privy Seal, and the Chairman of Committees, were named of the Committee:

  Duke of Richmond.

  Duke of Northumberland.

  Marquess of Salisbury.

  Marquess of Ripon.

  Marquess of Breadalbane.

  Earl Chesterfield.

  Earl Waldegrave.

  Earl Mount Edgcumbe.

  Earl Belmore.

  Earl Harrowby.

  Earl Cawdor.

  Earl Camperdown.

  Earl Kimberley.

  Earl de Montalt.

  Earl Cranbrook.

  Earl Ancaster.

  Viscount Knutsford.

  Lord Balfour.

  Lord Boyle. (Earl of Cork and Orrery.)

  Lord Ribblesdale.

  Lord Churchill.

  Lord Colchester.

  Lord Ker. (Marquis of Lothian.)

  Lord Rosebery. (Earl Rosebery.)

  Lord Belper.

  Lord Watson.

  Lord Rowton.

  Lord Colville of Culross.

  Lord Herschell.

  Lord Macnaghten.

  Lord Welby.

  COMMITTEE OF SELECTION.
  The Lords following, viz.:

  Earl Chesterfield.

  Earl Waldegrave.

  Lord Ribblesdale.

  Lord Colville of Culross,

  with the Chairman of Committees, were appointed a Committee to select and propose to the House the names of the five Lords to form a Select Committee for the consideration of each opposed Private Bill.

RETURNS, REPORTS, ETC.

  ARMY.
  1. (Royal Military College, Sandhurst.) Report of the Board of Visitors, for 1898;
  2. (Royal Military College, Woolwich.) Report of the Board of Visitors, for 1898.

  BANKING AND RAILWAY AND SHIPPING STATISTICS (IRELAND).
  Report, December 1898.
  INEBRIATE REFORMATORIES (SCOTLAND).
  Report of the Departmental Committee appointed by the Secretary for Scotland to report as to rules for inebriate reformatories, under the Inebriates Act, 1898: Presented (by Command), and ordered to lie on the Table.

  ARMY.
  1. (Reserve.) Further regulations relating to the Army Reserve;
  2. (Militia.) Further regulations relating to the Militia.

  SUPREME COURT OF JUDICATURE (IRELAND) ACT, 1877.
  Order in Council, dated 3rd February 1899, giving effect to Provisional Rules of Court relating to election petitions, under the Local Government (Ireland) Act, 1898.
  INEBRIATES ACT, 1898.
  Regulations for certified inebriate reformatories in Scotland: Laid before the House (pursuant to Act), and ordered to lie on the Table.
PUBLIC BUSINESS.

  MOVEMENTS OF HER MAJESTY'S WARSHIPS.
  LORD MUSKERRY: With regard to the Question standing in my name on the Paper, asking the Government if directions could be given that Her Majesty's ships, or at least some of the smaller ones, should visit the Channel Islands more frequently, I have been asked to adjourn the Question until Thursday. I therefore ask your Lordships' permission to do so.
  Question accordingly adjourned.

  OUTRAGES ON NATIVES IN INDIA.
  LORD STANLEY OF ALDERLEY: My Lords, I rise to ask Her Majesty's Government whether the Indian Government have taken, or intend to take, measures to prevent the outrages committed by European soldiers upon the natives of India, such as have recently occurred at Barackpore and Poonamallee. A great deal was last summer said about disaffection and sedition in India. Mr. Justice Strachey has given a novel and extraordinary definition of disaffection, and a new law has been passed on sedition. I believe that law has not yet been put in force, but events have taken place of worse effect than that which 10 or 20 seditious articles would have produced in the way of exciting disaffection. Every outrage or death caused by soldiers which goes unpunished, or imperfectly punished, must produce a worse effect on the minds of the natives of India who witness these outrages, than could be produced by newspaper articles which they for the most part do not and cannot read. At Barackpore, on April 30th last, three soldiers assaulted and killed an old Hindoo doctor without any provocation, and were put upon their trial in July last. The trial, from the long report, appears to have been fairly conducted. The judge, the Chief Justice, did his duty well, but the jury brought in a verdict of grievous hurt against all three prisoners. Under these circumstances seven years' rigorous imprisonment was the limit of the sentence the judge was able to pronounce. After that trial General Baker Russell issued an Order

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  to the troops under his command, in view of the recent outrage committed at Barackpore by three soldiers, resulting in the death of a native gentleman. The Order wishes all general officers and other officers to impress upon their men the cowardliness of striking or otherwise ill-using natives of India, and the serious consequences which may result to themselves. This Order, however, was insufficient, because the General who issued it would probably retire from his command within five years, and because it applied only to the forces in Bengal. In the Madras Presidency at Poonamallee at the end of July last, another outrage took place. A soldier named Knight put a cartridge into his carbine and discharged it into the body of a boy who was seated in a cart in which they and some other soldiers were driving. The boy jumped out of the cart, and they drove on without seeking to know whether he lived or died. Another person carried the boy to a doctor, who examined him slightly and sent him on to the general hospital, where he died. Knight was tried. It was said in his defence that he had been discussing with another soldier, sitting by him, how quickly he could load his carbine, and that he had touched the trigger accidentally. The jury found him guilty of a negligent act. The judge, Mr. Justice Boddam, however, blamed the soldiers for leaving the wounded boy by the roadside, and he blamed the doctor for sending on the boy a further distance to the hospital, and he sentenced Knight to nine months' rigorous imprisonment. If the judge had believed that this death was caused by accident only, would he, or could he, have passed such a sentence? I can find no mention of this Poonamallee case and trial in either a Bombay or Calcutta paper, all the numbers of which have reached me. This looks as if the editors of those papers were also of opinion that such cases are worse than seditious writing, and had therefore hesitated to comment on the trial. I have been told that the reason why juries bring in such verdicts, relieving soldiers from the consequences of these acts of violence, is the difficulty of proving malice. No doubt this is true. There was no previous malice either in the Barackpore case or the recent Poonamallee case, nor in the
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  Dum Dum murder case about 10 years ago—November 1st, 1889. This makes these outrages all the worse, more inexcusable in those who commit them, more offensive to the relatives and countrymen of the victims. The malice is not against the individual, but against the race. The views which soldiers have already acquired with reference to the natives is given in an English paper, "India," in which a soldier says—
  "As for the darkies, they are like stones under our feet. If they do not do what we want, we pull their turbans off their heads, and turn them upside down."
  This paper goes on to remark upon the Secretary of State having described the people of India as savages. Let me remind the House of the Dum Dum case, and relate its sequel, since I have met with persons usually well acquainted with matters in India who had not heard of the sequel. Four soldiers—three of the Leinster regiment and one of the Buffs—left the Dum Dum Barracks one night with service rifles and Government ammunition to shoot pigs. The Buffs soldier expressed his surprise at the others having obtained cartridges). On the way they obtained some toddy more or less forcibly from the people in the huts. Some of them got drunk, and one named O'Hara pulled a sleeping man from out of his verandah, chucked him into a pond, and then shot him. The poor man crawled back to his house and died. O'Hara was arrested and tried by Mr. Justice Norris, and convicted on the evidence of the Buffs soldier, and sentenced to death. But those who from race feelings wished to prevent the sentence being carried out, moved the High Court, and the sentence was quashed on the pretext that he had been convicted on the uncorroborated evidence of an accomplice. The Buffs soldier was not, however, an accomplice, since he had not started with O'Hara on a criminal expedition. Nor had he consented to anything of which the criminal act was a probable consequence. The consequences of not carrying out the sentence passed on O'Hara were that he re-entered the Army, but justice was not done, and encouragement was thereby given to others to follow his bad example. Some time later O'Hara again

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  got drunk and shot a sergeant and a soldier, and was then hanged, but not until after he had deprived Her Majesty's forces of two soldiers, and burdened himself with two more murders. If soldiers other than go id conduct men, whom the colonel can unreservedly trust, are allowed to go out shooting, quarrels with the villagers and outrages are certain to arise, since soldiers ignorantly shoot the tame animals belonging to the villagers; or peacocks or monkeys and other animals whose lives are respected by the villagers. After the Dum Dum affair I made notes of all the cases that were mentioned in the Indian newspapers, and at the end of three months five cases had occurred. I mentioned this to the Private Secretary of the Secretary of State, and he said these things often went in cycles. He might have been right, but I was, and still am, more inclined to attribute that interruption of quarrels and accidents to the good influence of the then Secretary of State, and it is a matter for great regret that he did not resume his place when the present Administration was formed. I would suggest that in future outrages by soldiers should be tried by Courts-martial with open doors, and not by juries. Juries will always, in such cases, contain men anxious from race feelings to screen the soldiers, and jurors have less feelings of responsibility than officers of rank who sit on a Court-martial. I have heard it objected a few days ago that this would be to discredit trial by jury; but I need not fear that accusation, after having in this House opposed the attempt made against trial by Jury in Bengal. The new Viceroy has recently stated that India is the pivot of the British Empire. I said much the same thing, but in different words, about 20 years ago to the noble Marquess at the head of the Government. Whether it is so or not, the well-being of the Empire requires that the people of India should not be alienated by outrages committed by British soldiers, and it is for that reason that I ask the Question of which I have given notice.
  THE UNDER SECRETARY OF STATE FOR INDIA (The EARL of ONSLOW): My Lords, the Question the noble Lord has put on the Paper is to inquire whether Her Majesty's Government have taken or intend to take measures to prevent the outrages committed by European soldiers upon the natives of India. Your Lordships will have heard that the cases the noble Lord referred to are not very numerous. Two only occurred in recent years, the Dum Dum case having happened some eight or ten years back-The Government of India have been consulted in this matter, and they report that in the opinion of the Commander-in-Chief there is no ground for taking any special measures, as regards British troops in India. Cases of this nature are of comparatively rare occurrence, and the ordinary law provides for the punishment of the offenders. The noble Lord himself has told your Lordships that in the case of the outrage which took place at Barackpore the jury unanimously found the prisoners guilty of causing grievous harm, and they were sentenced to seven years' rigorous imprisonment each. As regards the Poonamallee case, which the noble Lord has been unable to trace in certain papers that he has consulted, I may say that Poonamallee is in the Presidency of Madras, and if the noble Lord had consulted Madras papers he would have found a full report of the case and of the sentence. I think under these circumstances your Lordships will be entitled to agree with me that there is no necessity for taking any exceptional measures for dealing with such cases as these should they unhappily occur.
  LORD STANLEY OF ALDERLEY: My Lords, I should like to say that the answer of the noble Earl is extremely unsatisfactory, and I am sure it will be found so in India.
  House adjourned at forty-five minutes past Four of the clock, to Thursday next, half-past Ten of the clock.