§ Amendments reported (according to Order).
§ Formal Amendments agreed to.
§ Clause 9:—
THE EARL OF CAMPERDOWNMy Lords, I beg to move to omit Clause 9, and to insert a new clause, which in some respects resembles the clause I proposed when the Bill was in Committee, but which I withdrew at the request of the noble Lord in charge of the Bill. I do not like the new clause as well as my own proposal, but I must make the best of what I can get. I should like to know if the Government will accept the clause standing in my name.
§
Amendment moved—
To leave out Clause 9, and insert as a new clause:
When such Bill has been read a third time and passed in the first House of Parliament, the like proceedings shall, subject to Standing Orders, be taken in the second House of Parliament."—(The Earl of Camperdown.)
THE EARL OF MORLEYBefore the noble Lord answers the question whether he will accept the Amendment or not, I should like to say that I object to the clause, inasmuch as it renders absolutely necessary a Debate in the House on every Order to which there is opposition. My noble friend's clause provides that the reference to the Joint Committee of both Houses—that is, the rehearing before the Joint Committee—shall not be allowed unless it is moved for by some Member in either House.
THE EARL OF MORLEYWell, in whichever House it originates this clause makes it necessary, where there is opposition, that there should be a Debate on every Order, however small it may be. I do not anticipate, as I have said, that it will affect a large number of Orders, but the principle seems to me an objectionable one. There is one other point to which I should like to draw attention. It is that at the present time it is difficult to forecast what the character will be of the tribunal which will try these Orders in the first instance. I hope it will turn out to be a good tribunal, but it is possible that you will find great difficulty in getting Peers and Members to sit on these inquiries, which will, therefore, be entirely conducted by the extra-Parliamentary panel. I think everyone who appears before those tribunals should have the right, without asking leave of the House, to appeal to the Joint Committee. One of the safeguards against an abuse of this power is the question of costs.
§ * THE SECRETARY FOR SCOTLAND (Lord BALFOUR of BURLEIGH)I am quite 1234 sensible of the strength of the objection urged by the noble Earl the Chairman of Committees, but I think he went rather far in saying that this clause would involve a Debate in all cases. I venture to hope that will not be so, and that there will be some cases in which the right of a person to appear will be settled by the Chairman of Committees, and the House will, I hope, take his advice. I have never concealed my dislike to the changes that were made by the other House, but I know that to attempt to reverse their decision at the present stage of the session would be tantamount to losing the Bill. Therefore, although I do not like the tribunal so much as the one which was originally in the Bill, I think it would be a breach of faith, the Amendment having been accepted in the other House, to go back upon it. Having balanced the advantages and the disadvantages of all the courses open to us, the course suggested in the proposed new clause is the one which, we think, involves the least evil. The clause has been carefully adjusted by the officers of this House and the other House, and if the noble Earl at the Table does not very strongly persevere in his objection, I will accept the Amendment.
§ LORD TWEEDMOUTHMy Lords, I hope the noble Lord at the Table will not press his objection to this clause, for it at any rate does something to reduce the chance of a second inquiry. My own personal view is that a single Parliamentary inquiry is the proper tribunal to which private Bills and Provisional Orders should be referred. The object of the noble Lord's Amendment is to make the second inquiry dependent upon a special vote of the House. I hope that—as the noble Lord anticipates—this will prove one more difficulty in the way of the second inquiry. For that reason, although I do not think the clause will be of very great service, I hope it will be inserted in the Bill in preference to Clause 9 as it at present stands.
THE EARL OF MORLEYI am placed in a very awkward position, but in view of the appeals which have been made to me from both sides of the House I can hardly take the responsibility of urging the objections which I feel very strongly to this clause.
§ Amendment agreed to.
§ Clause 11:—
§ * LORD BALFOUR OF BURLEIGHI promised to consider Clause 11 on the last stage, and I now have to move the insertion of a new clause to take the place of Clause 11 in the Bill. As the clause now stands, it provides that any county council or town council or local authority connected with the locality to which any draft Provisional Order referred to Commissioners relates may make a report in writing to the Commissioners respecting the provision of the draft Order, and the Commissioners shall consider such report and any recommendations therein contained. This would limit the powers of county councils and town councils in regard to a Bill coming under the new procedure, and the object of the Amendment standing in my name is to leave their powers exactly as at present, which we consider the proper thing to do.
§
Amendment moved—
To leave out Clause 11, and insert, as a new clause:
§ Amendment agreed to.
§ Clause 17:—
§ * LORD BALFOUR OF BURLEIGHClause 17 formed the subject of discussion at the last stage, and I am agreed that the Chairman should be relieved from the duty of considering objections to any draft Order on the ground that the under- 1236 taking proposed to be authorised by the Order would destroy or injure any building or other object of historical interest, or would injuriously affect any natural scenery. I have placed Amendments on the Paper transferring this duty to the Secretary for Scotland.
§
Amendments moved—
In line 35, to leave out 'chairman' and insert 'Secretary for Scotland'; and in line 39, to leave out 'chairman' and insert 'Secretary for Scotland' and leave out from 'if' to 'who' in page 10, line 2, and insert 'he thinks fit to refer such objection to the Commissioners.' "—(Lord Balfour of Burleigh.)
§ Amendments agreed to.
§ Clause 18:—
§ * LORD BALFOUR OF BURLEIGHThis clause provides that the expression "agent" includes all law agents within the meaning of the Law Agents (Scotland) Act, 1873, any person entitled to practise as solicitor in any Court of Justice in England or Ireland, and any person entitled to practise as agent according to the practice and rules of either House of Parliament in cases of Private Bills and matters relating thereto. There seems to be a general consensus of opinion amongst the legal authorities in this House that the words "any person entitled to practise as solicitor in any court of justice in England or Ireland" should be omitted, and I beg to move the Amendment standing in my name.
§
Amendment moved—
In line 10, to leave out from '1873' to 'and' in line 12."—(Lord Balfour of Burleigh.)
§ LORD TWEEDMOUTHI am glad that the noble Lord has acceded to the suggestion which I made on the last stage of the Bill. It will give satisfaction to the law agents of Scotland to know that their little trade union is by this means protected.
§ Amendment agreed to.
§ Bill to be read 3a To-morrow; and to be printed as amended. (No. 206.)