Lords Sitting of 27 April 1899

Preamble
The LORD CHANCELLOR The LORD CHANCELLOR took his seat upon the Woolsack at Four of the clock.

COMMISSION.
The following Bills received the Royal Assent—

1. Army (Annual).

2. Cathcart's Divorce.

PRIVATE BILL BUSINESS.
The Lord Chancellor The Lord Chancellor acquainted the House that the Clerk of the Parliaments had laid upon the Table the Certificate from the Examiners that the Standing Orders applicable to the following Bill have not been complied with—
London, Walthamstow, and Epping Forest Railway (No. 2)—(Petition for Bill).
And the Certificate that the further Standing Orders applicable to the following Bill have been complied with:
Ilford Gas.
The same were ordered to lie on the Table.

PRIVATE BILL BUSINESS.
  GLASGOW AND SOUTH-WESTERN RAILWAY BILL [H.L.]
  A witness ordered to attend the Select Committee.
  SOUTHAMPTON CORPORATION WATER BILL [H.L.]
  Reported from the Select Committee with amendments.
  CROWBOROUGH DISTRICT WATER BILL.
  Reported with amendments.
  BURY CORPORATION BILL [H.L.]
  Reported with amendments.
  TOTLAND WATER BILL [H.L.]
  Committee to meet To-morrow.
  LONDON HOSPITAL BILL [H.L.]
  Committee to meet on Thursday next.
  MERSEY DOCKS AND HARBOUR BOARD (PILOTAGE) BILL [H.L.]
  Committee to meet on Monday next.
  DUBLIN IMPROVEMENT (BULL ALLEY AREA) BILL.
  Committee to meet on Monday next.
  CENTRAL ELECTRIC SUPPLY BILL.
  Read a second time, and committed: The Committee to be proposed by the Committee of Selection.
  VALE OF GLAMORGAN RAILWAY BILL.
  Read a second time, and committed.
  BRYNMAWR AND WESTERN VALLEYS RAILWAY BILL.
  Read a second time, and committed: The Committee to be proposed by the Committee of Selection.
  NUNEATON AND CHILVERS COTON URBAN DISTRICT COUNCIL WATER BILL.
  Read a second time, and committed.
  STOCKPORT CORPORATION WATER BILL.
  Read a second time, and committed The Committees to be proposed by the Committee of Selection.
  STOCKPORT DISTRICT WATER BILL.
  Read a second time, and committed: The Committees to be proposed by the Committee of Selection.
  RLEY-IN-WHARFEDALE URBAN DISTRICT WATER BILL.
  Read a second time, and committed.
  CLAY CROSS WATER BILL.
  Read a second time, and committed.
  ILFORD URBAN DISTRICT COUNCIL (RATES) BILL.
  Read a second time, and committed.
  GREENOCK AND PORT GLASGOW TRAMWAYS BILL [H.L.]
  Read a third time, and passed, and sent to the Commons.
  ST. ALBAN'S GAS BILL [H.L.]
  Read a third time: amendments made; Bill passed, and sent to the Commons.
  CROWBOROUGH DISTRICT GAS BILL.
  Read a third time, with the amendments, and passed, and returned to the Commons.
  ST. DAVID'S WATER AND GAS BILL.
  Read a third time, with the amendments, and passed, and returned to the Commons.
  SKIPTON GAS BILL [H.L.]
  Report from the Select Committee. That it is not expedient to proceed further with the Bill; read, and ordered to lie on the Table.
  SKIPTON URBAN DISTRICT GAS BILL [H.L.]
  Reported from the Select Committee with amendments.
  DUNDEE GAS, TRAMWAYS, AND EXTENSION BILL [H.L.]
  Report from the Committee of Selection, That the Earl of Carlisle be proposed to the House as a member of the Select Committee in the place of the Earl of Clarendon; read, and agreed to.
  ABERDEEN JOINT PASSENGER STATION BILL [H.L.]
  Report from the Committee of Selection, That the Earl of Carlisle be proposed to the House as a member of the Select Committee in the place of the Earl of Clarendon; read, and agreed to.
  LLANELLY HARBOUR AND PONTARDULAIS RAILWAY BILL [H.L.]
  Report from the Committee of Selection, That the Earl of Carlisle be proposed to the House as a member of the Select Committee in the place of the Earl of Clarendon; read, and agreed to
  PORT TALBOT RAILWAY AND DOCKS BILL [H.L.]
  Report from the Committee of Selection, That the Earl of Carlisle be proposed to the House as a member of the Select Committee in the place of the Earl of Clarendon; read, and agreed to.
  WISHAW WATER BILL [H.L.]
  Report from the Committee of Selection, That the Earl of Carlisle be proposed to the House as a member of the Select Committee in the place of the Earl of Clarendon; read, and agreed to.
  NORTH-WEST LONDON RAILWAY BILL.
  Brought from the Commons; read the first time; and referred to the Examiners.
  EDUCATION DEPARTMENT PROVISIONAL ORDER CONFIRMATION (SWANSEA) BILL [H.L.]
  Returned from the Commons agreed to.
  RUSHDEN AND HIGHAM FERRERS DISTRICT GAS BILL [H.L.]
  Returned from the Commons agreed to.
RETURNS, REPORTS, ETC.
  LOCAL GOVERNMENT BOARD (SCOTLAND).
  Fourth Annual Report of the Local Government Board for Scotland.
  EDUCATION (SCOTLAND).
  Minute of the Committee of Council on Education in Scotland, dated 27th April 1899, providing for the distribution of the sum available for secondary or technical (including agricultural) education, under section 2, sub-section (4), of the Local Taxation Account (Scotland) Act, 1898.
  EDUCATION DEPARTMENT, 1899.
  Code of regulations for evening continuation schools; with explanatory memorandum, schedule, and appendices.

  TRADE REPORTS, 1899.
  I. Annual Series:
  No. 2232. Chili (Valparaiso and District);
  No. 2233. Turkey (Erzeroum).
  II. Miscellaneous Series:
  No. 502. Commercial education in Japan.

  COMMERCIAL, No. 3, 1899.
  Reports by Her Majesty's Representatives Abroad on the system of tenure of dwelling-houses in the countries in which they reside (in continuation of Commercial, No. 36, 1884).

  MINES AND QUARRIES (GENERAL REPORT AND STATISTICS FOR THE YEAR 1898).
  Part I. District statistics of the persons employed, output, and accidents at mines and quarries in the United Kingdom, arranged according to the inspection districts.
  Presented (by command), and ordered to lie on the Table.

  JUDICIAL TRUSTEES ACT, 1896.
  Additional Rule under the Act.

  CERTIFIED INEBRIATE REFORMATORIES (REGULATIONS FOR MANAGEMENT).
  Regulations for the management of the Duxhurst Certified Inebriate Reformatory, made with the approval of the Secretary of State for the Home Department.
  Laid before the House (pursuant to Act), and ordered to lie on the Table.

PUBLIC BUSINESS.
  LICENSING (DISQUALIFICATION OF JUSTICES REMOVAL) BILL [H.L.]
  To be read a second time on Thursday next.
  PUBLIC LIBRARIES (SCOTLAND) ACTS AMENDMENT BILL.
  To be read a second time on Friday the 12th of May next (The Earl of Camperdown).
  THE CROMWELL STATUE.
  THE EARL OF WEMYSS gave notice that to-morrow (Friday) he proposed to ask Her Majesty's Government whether they would cause a rough model of the proposed statue to Cromwell, and of the pedestal, to be put up, actual size, on the selected site.

  PARISH CHURCHES (SCOTLAND) BILL
  Reports of Amendments received.
  Amendments proposed—
  "Clause 3, page 2, line 21, after 'church' insert 'or manse'; line 24, leave out 'site' and insert 'sites,' and leave out 'it' and insert 'them, or either of them'; line27, leave out 'site' and insert 'said sites'; line 30, leave out 'site' and insert 'sites.'"—(Lord Balfour of Burleigh.)
  THE SECRETARY FOR SCOTLAND (Lord BALFOUR of BURLEIGH): The object of these Amendments is to put the manse in the same position as the church as regards the site if the municipal authority of a city or town desire to acquire it for an open space. It was agreed in the Standing Committee that the Amendments should be made, and I now propose them.
  Question put.
  Amendments agreed to.

  BODIES CORPORATE (JOINT TENANCY) BILL [H.L.]
  Third Reading (which stands appointed for this day) put off till To-morrow.

  LUNACY BILL.
  Report of the Amendments received.
  Amendments proposed—
  "Clause 19, page 6, line 15, leave out 'restoring' and insert 'altering.'"—(Earl Russell.)
  EARL RUSSELLsaid he agreed that plans for building, restoring, or enlarging an asylum, and contracts for the purchase of lands and buildings, decided upon by a visiting committee, should not be carried into effect until approved by a Secretary of State; but as, in his opinion, the meaning of the word "restoring" was not quite clear, he moved that the word "altering" be substituted.
  LORD CHANCELLOR (The EARL of HALSBURY): I see no objection to the Amendment.
  Question put—
  "That the word 'restoring' stand part of the Question."
  Motion negatived.
  Question put—
  "That the word 'altering' be here inserted."
  Motion agreed to.
  Amendment proposed—
  "Clause 22, page 8, after sub-section (2) insert as a new subsection—'(3.) Where more than one asylum is maintained by a local authority, whether solely or in conjunction with any other local authority, and the charges for the maintenance of lunatics in the several asylums are not uniform, the local authority may make to any board of guardians sending lunatics to any of those asylums such payments as will, in the opinion of the local authority, tend to equalise the cost of maintenance of pauper lunatics in the asylums as between the poor law unions sending lunatics thereto.'"—(The Lord Chancellor.)
  Question put.
  Amendment agreed to.

  LAND CHARGES BILL [H.L.]
  Read the third time (according to order), and passed, and sent to the Commons.

  TITHE RENT-CHARGE IN IRELAND.
  THE DUKE OF ABERCORNasked the Prime Minister if he could state at what date the Government expected to be able to introduce the Bill dealing with tithe rent-charge in Ireland, which was promised in the Queen's Speech. He did not intend to provoke any debate, as he thought it would be hardly fair to do so, the Bill having already been promised. But hope deferred made the heart sick, and he could assure their Lordships that there were many sick hearts in Ireland in regard to this question, and the doubt and uncertainty that existed as to the intention of the Government upon this unjust tax, which now pressed so hard, unjustly, and severely upon many of the already crippled landowners in Ireland.
  THE PRIME MINISTER AND SECRETARY OF STATE FOR FOREIGN AFFAIRS (The Marquess of SALISBURY): My Lords, I am afraid I can only repeat to my noble Friend what has already been stated-by my right honourable Friend the Chief Secretary in the House of Commons, namely—that we cannot absolutely gay when the Hill will be brought forward, but we hope it will be at a very early period, and before Whitsuntide. I may add the information that the Bill is in existence, and is being submitted to its last stage of manufacture in the shape of being brought before a Committee of the Cabinet. When the Committee of the Cabinet has applied its wisdom to it, I have no doubt the Bill will be ready to be introduced to Parliament.
  THE EARL OF MAYOdesired to ask, in connection with this question, whether the noble Marquess could give the House any information with regard to the Board of Agriculture Bill. This Bill had been twice mentioned in the Queen's Speech, and he trusted that it would be brought in this Session. It was here, as in the matter of the Tithe Rent-Charge Bill, a case of hope deferred.
  THE PRIME MINISTER: My Lords, I can only say very much the same in respect to this Bill as I said in respect to the other Measure. They are both in a forward state of preparation, and I hope they will be introduced. My noble Friend rather seems to think that Ireland has a particular grievance. I assure him that that is not the case. With respect to both England and Scotland, hearts are more sick with "hope deferred" than they are in Ireland. This is due to the machinery of Parliament not being equal to the work which it has to do. My noble Friend speaks with awe of the phenomenon of a Bill twice mentioned in the Queen's Speech, and yet not passed into law. Is my noble Friend aware that only last year we passed a Bill which has been mentioned five times in the Queen's Speech? I am afraid my noble Friend must learn the lessons of patience which come home to a Member of even the most important Parliament in the world.

  IRISH LAND ACTS.
  THE DUKE OF ABERCORNasked the Lord Chancellor of Ireland—(1) what alterations in procedure had been already adopted and put in force under the Irish Land Acts and Land Purchase Acts since the publication of the Report of the Fry Commission; (2) what further alterations in procedure had been decided upon; and (3) when would statuory rules be published to give effect to these alterations.
  THE LORD CHANCELLOR OF IRELAND (Lord ASHBOURNE): My Lords, in the month of July last, my noble Friend drew attention to the Report of the Fry Commission, and to the proposals made by that Commission. He then made inquiries in the same direction as those which he has now quite reasonably addressed to Her Majesty's Government. The recommendations of the Fry Commission are divisible into several heads. Some of them require legislation, some statutory rules, and some would need only directions and suggestions to be made by the heads of Departments to the subordinates to facilitate the smooth and easy working of the machinery committed to their charge; and, therefore, in considering the matter one has to bear in mind the variety of topics that are involved. I will tell my noble Friend exactly how this matter stands, and give him the fullest information possible. In the first place a new form of valuer's report has been adopted, with instructions designed to secure greater care and accuracy m the matter of inspection, valuation, and report. That is a matter of obvious importance, and one to which attention was directed by the Fry Commission, in the interests of all parties concerned, both landlords and tenants. It has been pointed out that there was a certain un-evenness of knowledge on the part of the Assistant Commissioners with regard to the legal decisions that regulate the cases which come before them. That has been met by instructions for the circulation, for the information of the Assistant Commissioners and for their guidance, of legal decisions of importance pronounced both by the head Land Commission and by the Court of Appeal in Dublin. This is a matter which does not require statutory rules, but is accomplished by the ordinary machinery

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  of a department. The recommendation as to the inspection of drains, as to the way in which they should be carried out and so forth, has been accepted and put into force, and is at the present moment working with very great advantage. Another change which has been brought about by the ordinary mechanism is that the practice of communicating the valuer's report, which had been discontinued, has been resumed—I believe with extremely good results. Another matter which has always engaged a great deal of attention is the question of adopting some alternative procedure to the somewhat costly mechanism of fixing fair rents. The Fry Commission themselves sketched an alternative procedure, but they were not the first to do so. When the Act of 1896 was still before Parliament a very carefully and well-considered alternative procedure clause was embodied in the Measure. This clause, however, fell out of the Bill, because it was practically opposed by both Parties. Therefore it is not the fault of the Government that the alternative procedure is not found in a statutable form and in the Act of 1896. I have always thought it desirable to have an alternative procedure. The Fry Commission recommended an alternative clause, but I am informed—and I am disposed to think that it is so—that not only was it complicated in its character, but would require the aid of Parliament by further legislation to be carried out. Therefore, the Land Commission applied themselves to devise a consent alternative procedure, which was within their powers. Up to the present there has not been an opportunity of knowing how far it has been appealed to, but that procedure has been adopted, and I believe it will be found to stand the test of experience. I hope it will be accepted as an evidence that the matter has not escaped the attention which its great importance demanded. Another matter of procedure of considerable importance has also been adopted, and copies of the Pink Schedule will be sent to applicants within a certain fixed number of days after application. It is of the utmost importance that all the parties should have the fullest possible information. The Pink Schedule contains all the information that Parliament indicated in 1896 that it should contain, and has been brought up to meet the requirements of the Local Gov-
  676
  ernment Act. Then, as to the tenure of the Assistant Commissioners, it would be practically impossible to make every Assistant Commissioner permanent, the work varying so enormously. It varies sometimes to such an extent that 31 Assistant Commissioners may be required one year, 40 another year, and 80 the next. You must draw a distinction between the permanent stuff and the temporary staff, and there must always, be a certain number of temporary Assistant Commissioners. These gentlemen, have been practically given a tenure for three years, and will hold office until 31st March 1902. Another point that was pressed with great force was this—that even admitting the honesty of intention with which the Assistant Commissioners are selected, and assuming that the Lord Lieutenant and the Chief Secretary do their best, which everyone knows they do, to get the most capable, reliable, and independent men, it was desirable that a test should be applied to guarantee by adequate examination their fitness for their position. That has also been attended to, and a system of examination instituted for these appointments which will ensure that the applicants possess the necessary qualifications, and are acquainted with the value of land, the method of land valuation, and have a knowledge of land surveying. These are matters of very considerable moment, and the passing of the Civil Service examination will guarantee the possession of considerable qualifications by those who are employed to fulfil these important positions. Besides that, there is a test to be applied to see that the physical health of the applicants is adequate, and that they enjoy that robust health which will enable them to make outdoor inspections and examinations. Again, the old system of associating two lay Assistant Commissioners with each legal Assistant Commissioner will be returned to. These measures, which have commended themselves to the Land Commission, embody a number of substantial improvements in administration, and they will be worked with an earnest desire to secure efficiency and do justice to all parties. Directions have been given by the heads of the Land Commission to the staff in every way to try and meet the public requirements and the public conveni-

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  ence, to give all the information they are asked to give whenever they can do so, and also to supply copies of all documents when asked for them. I am quite sure that if my noble Friends who are interested in this question will apply to their solicitors, who are naturally in close touch with these questions, they will find that there are few complaints to be made now as to delays, hesitation, or unwillingness to give every information possible to facilitate and expedite matters. Turning to the subject of land purchase, the Fry Commission pointed out, not unnaturally, that at the time they made their Report, which covered the period from 1st April 1896, to 3lst March 1897, the output of that particular year was only £515,251. I believe this is practically the lowest figure ever touched, and is explainable by a variety of circumstances. But in 1897–98 the output was £876,000; in 1898–99 it had sprung up to the tremendous figure of £1,771,120; while in the three months ending 3lst March last it was £626,827, showing that in the present year, unless these figures unexpectedly collapse, and there is no reason to think they will, the output will be something like £2,000,000. These figures show that land purchase is working vigorously, and I think the natural deduction from that is that the existing rules are found adequate for their purpose, and that they are able to still further develop a great and growing business. This means an enormous increase in the work of the Land Commission. The noble Duke, when he last introduced this subject, referred to the working of the 40th section, and he was a little incredulous as to the possibility of that section working well. Of course, there were differences of opinion about it, but the section has passed through the diseases of infancy, and has been tested in the court over which I have the honour to preside in Ireland—the Court of Appeal. The decision swept away all doubts on the subject, and since then the section has been working perfectly satisfactorily. You have only to take up our Legal List to see the wide extent to which that section is being appealed to. I do not think there is a harder worked body in the Kingdom than the Land Commission. There are 8,000 fair-rent appeals awaiting their hearing at the present time, and involving prolonged investigation. The only interest
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  of the Commission is to make the machinery entrusted to them work smoothly, justly and fairly to landlords and tenants alike, and they are watching and noting with a view to further improvements in the Rules.
  THE EARL OF MAYOsaid the Land Commission had certainly advanced since last year, but he should like to see their Rules still further improved. He would like the Lord Chancellor of Ireland to inform the House where noble Lords could get copies of these Rules, so that they could furnish them to their solicitors.
  THE LORD CHANCELLOR OF IRELAND: Every Statutory Rule is published and printed by the Queen's printer, and presented to Parliament. Copies can be obtained in London, Edinburgh, and Glasgow, and the particular Rule I have before me can be bought for the ridiculouslv small sum of one half-penny.
  THE EARL OF MAYOsaid that what noble Lords desired was to get copies of the Rules that were not Statutory Rules.

  ANCHORS AND CHAINS CABLES BILL.
  Brought from the Commons.
  Read the first time; and to be printed. (No. 58.)

  SEATS FOR SHOP ASSISTANTS (SCOTLAND) BILL.
  Brought from the Commons.
  Read the first time; and to be printed. (No. 59.)

NEW BILLS.
  EDUCATION DEPARTMENT PROVISIONAL ORDER CONFIRMATION (LONDON) BILL [H.L.]
  A Bill to confirm a Provisional Order made by the Education Department under the Elementary Education Acts, 1870 to 1893, to enable the School Board for London to put in force the Lands Clauses Acts (No. 60): and

  EDUCATION DEPARTMENT PROVISIONAL ORDER CONFIRMATION (LIVERPOOL) BILL [H.L.]
  A Bill to confirm a Provisional Order made by the Education Department under the Elementary Education Acts, 1870 to 1893, to enable the School Board for Liverpool to put in force the Lands Clauses Acts (No. 61):
  Were presented by the Lord Churchill (for the Lord President (D. Devonshire); read the first time; to be printed; and referred to the Examiners.
  House adjourned at seventeen minutes after Five of the clock.