LUNACY BILL. (Hansard, 20 April 1899)

§ *THE MARQUESS OF RIPON
My Lords, I was unfortunately unable, on account of indisposition, to be present when this Bill was read a second time, but I am very glad to understand that the noble and learned Lord on the Woolsack held out some hope, in moving the Second Reading, that if objections were taken to the change in the law in respect of pensions and allowances to officers and servants of asylums proposed in this Bill, he would not be unwilling to reconsider the proposal. It will be within the recollection of the noble and learned Lord that last year I ventured to protest against this clause, which provides that the visiting committee of every asylum shall grant superannuations to such of their officers and servants as are engaged in the care or treatment of lunatics, and that it shall be the duty of the county council to confirm the grants so made, and I took a Division upon it. I was not successful, although I had considerable support, but I cannot say that the year which has passed has in any way reconciled either me, or those for whom I act, in regard to the change which the noble and learned Lord on the Woolsack proposes to make in the law. I confess I fail to understand the wisdom of further restricting the powers of county councils. Already, as your Lordships know, they have a very limited power over a large part of their expenditure, and this clause proposes to impose further restrictions upon them in regard to pensions and allowances to 10 officers and servants of lunatic asylums. From 1888 up to the present time county councils have enjoyed the right of determining for themselves whether they will grant pensions or not. I do not know what may be the case in other counties, but in the county with which I have the honour to be connected—namely, the West Riding of Yorkshire—the county council some years ago passed a resolution that they would not grant pensions to their officers, on the understanding that their servants should be paid larger salaries than would be the case if they were to be entitled to superannuations, and they have acted upon that resolution ever since. I am of opinion that this question of granting pensions is one which distinctly falls within the proper functions of a county council. Some county councils may grant these pensions, and others may object to do so, but it will be within the recollection of many of your Lordships that upon the question of principle, when it was discussed last year, the County Councils Association, which, to a great extent, represents the county councils of the country, took exception to this clause, and asked your Lordships to reject it, and to leave county councils in the position they have occupied with reference to this matter since their creation in 1888. I do not propose to trouble your Lordships with a Division on this occasion. I reserve any step which I may consider it necessary to take, but I do most earnestly hope the noble and learned Lord will withdraw this clause, which is regarded by the majority of the county councils in this country as an infringement of their discretion in withdrawing powers which they have, up to this time, possessed, and which I venture to say they have in no way abused. I would ask the noble and learned Lord to consider what will be the position in which the county council of the West Riding of Yorkshire will be placed if this clause is passed. That county council, as I have said, have for several years past given good salaries upon the understanding that there will be no pensions. That is to say, they have gone into the market, and have given probably higher salaries than they would otherwise have done if the officers were to be entitled at the end of their term of service to a pen- 11 sion. If your Lordships pass this Resolution, in what position will you place the county council of the West Riding of Yorkshire in regard to their officers and their servants, who have taken employment under these circumstances? You will give them the higher rate of salary which they have obtained, because there were to be no pensions, and you will give them pension as well. I am sure this is not a condition which would be fair either to the county council or to the officers and servants of that council. It might, of course, be possible, in regard to some of these officers, to force upon them a reduction of salary in consideration of the granting of the pension, but that would be a very undesirable step to take, and yet it almost seems that you would force the county council into that position unless they are prepared to spend more of the ratepayers' money than they would be justified in spending. Therefore, I hope the noble and learned Lord who has charge of this Bill will be able to say that this clause will not be proceeded with. I can assure him that the feeling on the subject is, or, at any rate, was last year, very decided, and that if he presses the clause, he must look to opposition both here and in the other House.

§ THE LORD CHANCELLOR (The Earl of HALSBURY)
My Lords, I am not certain that it was necessary for the noble Marquess to state at such length the objection he has to this clause. I can at once announce that I do not propose to persist in this clause, but it must not be supposed that there is not another side to the question than that stated by the noble Marquess. The noble Marquess says his mind has not been altered since last year. Neither has mine. I entertain a strong opinion that the question of the discipline of lunatic asylums and the question of pensions to officials, who should not be employed in these asylums for too long a time, are matters of Imperial concern. I quite feel, after the veiled threat of opposition both in this House and elsewhere which the noble Marquess was able to make, that it would be very undesirable, in what is otherwise a non-contentious Bill, to encounter any opposition, and if the noble Marquess moves to omit the clause, I shall not oppose the Motion.

THE EARL OF KIMBERLEY
I cannot help expressing my satisfaction that the noble and learned Lord on the Woolsack will not persevere with this clause. I share entirely the opinion of my noble Friend in his opposition to the clause. With the exception of some subsidies granted by the Government, the whole of the expenses of lunatic asylums are provided out of the rates, and it would be extremely unfair if the persons who bear the cost have not some control over the lunatic asylums. The matter is carried very far indeed already. With regard to pensions and allowances, there is no class of officers whose duties are more onerous than the officers of lunatic asylums, or who are more deserving of generous consideration in the matter of salaries and pensions; but I think the county councils are well able to exercise a wise discretion in the matter.