Lords Sitting of 18 April 1899

Preamble
THE LORD CHANCELLORtook his seat upon the Woolsack at Four of the clock.

PRIVATE BILL BUSINESS.
THE LORD CHANCELLOR THE LORD CHANCELLOR acquainted the House that the Clerk of the Parliaments had laid upon the Table the Certificate from the Examiners that the Standing Orders applicable to the following Bill have been complied with:—
Education Department Provisional Order Confirmation (Aberavon, etc.) [H.L.]
And also the Certificate that the further Standing Orders applicable to the following Bill have been complied with:—
Buenos Ayres and Pacific Railway Company [H.L.]
The same were ordered to lie on the Table.

WORKINGTON CORPORATION WATER BILL [H.L.]
(Petition for additional Provision.)
Examiner's Certificates of non-compliance with the Standing Orders referred to the Standing Orders Committee on Monday next.

LOWESTOFT PROMENADE PIER BILL.
Examiner's Certificates on non-compliance with the Standing Orders referred to the Standing Orders Committee on Monday next.
MID-KENT GAS BILL [H.L.]
Committee (which stands appointed for Thursday next) put off to Friday next.
WICK AND PULTENEY HARBOURS BILL [H.L.]
The Chairman of Committees informed the House that the opposition to the Bill was withdrawn. The order made on the 27th of February last discharged; and Bill committed.
LOWESTOFT WATER AND GAS BILL [H.L.]
Report from the Select Committee, that the Committee had not proceeded with the consideration of the Bill, no parties having appeared in opposition thereto; read, and ordered to lie on the Table. The orders made on the 2nd and 24th of March last discharged; and Bill committed.
BOGNOR URBAN DISTRICT WATER BILL [H.L.]
Report from the Select Committee, That it is not expedient to proceed further with the Bill; read, and ordered to lie on the Table.
ST. ALBAN'S GAS BILL [H.L.]
Reported with Amendments.
GLASGOW CORPORATION (TRAMWAYS, ETC.) BILL [H.L.]
Reported from the Select Committee with Amendments.
CROWBOROUGH DISTRICT WATER BILL
Read a second time, and committed.
FISHGUARD WATER AND GAS BILL.
Read a second time, and committed. The Committee to be proposed by the Committee of Selection.
BUENOS AYRES AND PACIFIC RAILWAY COMPANY BILL [H.L.]
Read a second time (according to order).

WATERMEN'S AND LIGHTERMEN'S ACTS AMENDMENT BILL [H.L.]
Motion made, and Question proposed —
"That this Bill be read a second time,"—(The Chairman of Committees.)
THE EARL OF WEMYSS: My Lords, I have been asked to present a petition against this Bill at this stage on behalf of the Shipping Federation of the United Kingdom. They have asked me to oppose the Second Reading, but I do not think that advisable, inasmuch as their objection can be urged before the Committee to which the Bill will be sent. The Bill is a very important one, for it practically changes the whole power and management of the Thames watermen and lightermen, and puts the power and management in the hands of the lightermen themselves. The Shipping Federation say they oppose the Bill on the ground that its proposals are contrary to public policy, and would interfere materially with the interests of the petitioners, who also deny that any public necessity exists for the granting of the powers sought, and that any public advantage will result therefrom. I desire to present petitions against the Bill from a number of other bodies —namely, the Association of Master Lightermen and Bargeowners, the BargeownerB' Protection Society, the Amalgamated Society of Foremen and Lightermen, the Conservators of the River Thames, the Corporation of West Ham, and the Master Wardens and Commonalty of the Watermen's Company, who object to the Bill variously on the ground that it would place all the powers of the Watermen's Company practically in the hands of the working lightermen, and that this might tend to the relaxation of discipline and to the disregard of the public interests for the supposed benefit of the Lightermen's Trade Union. I beg leave, my Lords, to present these petitions.
THE PARLIAMENTARY SECRETARY TO THE BOARD OF TRADE (The Earl of DUDLEY): My Lords, I hope this Bill will be read a second time.
THE EARL OF WEMYSS: I do not oppose the Second Reading.
THE PARLIAMENTARY SECRETARY TO THE BOARD OF TRADE: I am glad to hear that my noble Friend does not intend to oppose the Second Reading of the Bill, because really the question of the preamble of this Bill is merely the future construction of the court which governs the affairs of the lightermen and watermen upon the Thames. I do not agree altogether with my noble Friend that the effect will be to throw the whole management into the hands of the working lightermen themselves. That is primarily a question to be best decided by the Committee to which it will be referred; but there are one or two clauses which I think will require consideration, and care will have to be taken to see that there it, no undue overlapping of authority between the court and the bodies which have jurisdiction now in matters such as the manning and sanitary condition of ships that ply upon the Thames.

IMPERIAL MARKETS AND STORES BILL [H.L.]
Second Reading (which stands appointed for this day) put off to Monday next.
DUMBARTON BURGH BILL [H.L.]
Read a third time, and passed, and sent to the Commons.
ARBROATH CORPORATION GAS BILL [H.L.]
Read a third time and passed, and sent to the Commons.
BURLEY-IN-WHARFEDALE URBAN DISTRICT WATER BILL.
Brought from the Commons; read a first time; and referred to The Examiners.
CLAY CROSS WATER BILL.
Brought from the Commons; read a first time; and referred to the Examiners.
ILFORD URBAN DISTRICT COUNCIL (RATES) BILL.
Brought from the Commons; read a first time; and referred to the Examiners.
WOODHOUSE AND CONISBOROUGH RAILWAY (ABANDONMENT) BILL.
Brought from the Commons; read a first time; and referred to the Examiners.
CATHCART'S DIVORCE BILL [H.L.]
Returned from the Commons; agreed to.
RETURNS, REPORTS, ETC.
  EDUCATION (SCOTLAND).
  Rules made for Scotland under the Elementary Teachers (Superannuation) Act, 1898.
  WAR OFFICE
  Memorandum showing the duties of the principal officers and Departments of the War Office, and details of office procedure under the Order in Council dated 7th March 1899

  INDIA (FAMINE)
  Appendices to the Report of the Indian Famine Commission, 1898, being minutes of evidence, etc.

  Vol. I. Bengal;

  Vol. II. Madras Presidency;

  Vol. III. Bombay Presidency;

  Vol. IV. The Central Provinces and Berar;

  Vol. V. The North Western Provinces and Oudh;

  Vol. VI. The Punjab;

  Vol. VII. Miscellaneous.

  SIGHT TESTS.
  Reports on the sight-tests used in the Mercantile Marine for 1898 (in continuation of Parliamentary Paper [C.-8865]).

  RAILWAY ACCIDENTS.
  Returns of accidents and casualities as reported to the Board of Trade by the several railway companies in the United Kingdom during the year ending 31st December 1898: in pursuance of the Regulation of Railways Act (1871), 34th and 35th Victoria, chap 78; together with reports of the inspecting officers of the Railway Department to the Board of Trade upon certain accidents which were inquired into.
  Presented (by command) and ordered to lie on the Table.

  INDIA (LOANS RAISED IN ENGLAND).
  Return of all loans raised in England under the provisions of any Acts of Parliament chargeable on the revenues of India outstanding at the commencement of the half-year ended on the 31st March 1899, with the rates and interest and total amount payable thereon, etc. Laid before the House (pursuant to Act), and ordered to lie on the Table.
PETITIONS.
  WATERMEN'S AND LIGHTERMEN'S ACTS AMENDMENT BILL [H.L.]
  Petition against; of the Shipping Federation; read, and ordered to lie on the Table.
  INTOXICATING LIQUORS.
  Petition against the sale of, to children under the age of 13; of Corporation of Nelson; read, and ordered to lie on the Table.
  MUNICIPAL CORPORATIONS (BOROUGH FUNDS) ACT, 1872.
  Petition for the Amendment of; of the Corporation of Nelson; read, and ordered to lie upon the Table.
NEW BILLS.
  COPYRIGHT BILL [H.L.]
  A Bill to amend and consolidate the law relating to literary copyright. (No. 44.) Was presented by the Lord Monkswell; read a first time; to be printed; and to be read a second time on Monday next.
  COPYRIGHT (ARTISTIC) BILL [H.L.]
  A Bill to simplify and amend the law relating to copyright in artistic works. (No. 45.) Was presented by the Lord Monkswell; read a first time; to be printed; and to be read a second time on Monday next.
  ST. ANDREW'S BURGH PROVISIONAL ORDER CONFIRMATION BILL [H.L.]
  House to be in Committee on Thursday next.
PUBLIC BUSINESS.

  TROUT FISHING ANNUAL CLOSE TIME (SCOTLAND) BILL.
  Motion made, and Question put —
  "That this Bill be read a second time."-(Lord Balfour of Burleigh.)
  THE SECRETARY FOR SCOTLAND (Lord BALFOUR of BURLEIGH): My Lords, the object of the Bill which I rise to ask your Lordships to give a Second Reading is to establish a close time for trout in Scotland, during which time it will not be legal to fish for, or take trout in any river, lake, or loch in Scotland by net, rod, or line, or to have possession of such trout, or expose them for sale. The period which we propose is to begin on the 15th of October, and to end on the 28th February. It is, of course, in such a matter as this, difficult to suit the circumstances of every locality, or to be sure that one is in accord with the opinion of everyone who is interested in the matter. Some would, no doubt, prefer a longer close time, and
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  some few possibly desire that the close time should be for a shorter period. The period which we propose in this Bill has been arrived at and decided after a good deal of consultation and conference with many of those who are interested, and, upon the whole, I believe it is a period which will suit most districts and be in accord with the great majority of opinion of those concerned. I do not think that anyone will seriously take exception to the date at which the close time is proposed to end, because I cannot conceive of anyone desiring to fish for, or catch trout before the 1st of March. It is, of course, impossible that the close time for trout can be made to accord with that for salmon, because, owing to the migratory habits of the latter fish, it would not be possible to have a similar time for all the rivers or districts in Scotland. As to the date on which we propose that the close time should commence, I am quite aware that many interested in the subject would like, to see it fixed for an earlier period, but I suggest 15th October from a desire to go upon the principle of not asking too much in the hope that what I believe to be a very much needed change in the law will pass without opposition. I believe there is a great need for such a close time in Scotland, and there is a general desire for it among all who are interested. There is, I think, no doubt whatever that trout are diminishing in number in all the accessible parts of Scotland on account of the great amount of fishing which goes on. Trout are undoubtedly of some value as food, but it is in the other aspect that I think they are even more valuable —namely, as a fish which gives an immense amount of sport and innocent recreation to a very large number of the population. In Scotland pike and other coarse fish are hardly worth considering, because they scarcely exist in such numbers as to provide sport. But I think it will be within the knowledge of those of your Lordships who are familiar with Scotland, that trout fishing is perhaps the most popular recreation of a sporting kind in? Scotland, and it appeals without exception to all classes. I maintain that taking trout during the period which I have named is a wasteful, foolish, and senseless proceeding. During that time they are absolutely useless for food, and practically give little or no amusement to

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  those who catch them. But in the case of those rivers and streams which are accessible, large numbers of people take advantage of their remaining open, and thus selfish persons, though few in proportion to the total number of anglers, do a great deal of harm to the sport of those who only fish for trout during the proper time. There is no sort of intention by this Bill to limit the proper facilities which those who like the sport can have for enjoying it. It is introduced rather for the purpose of protecting trout for the greater number, and it would thus give greater enjoyment. In England there is, in almost every fishing district, a close time for trout, and the only wonder that I have is that more persistent efforts have not been made to secure this reform in Scotland; it has been agitated for several years; a great majority of the county councils have pronounced in favour of the proposals; the angling associations are practically unanimous in support of the Bill, and I believe that all my predecessors in office have expressed themselves in favour of such a change, which has also the support of the Fishery Board of Scotland. I place this Bill before your Lordships with every confidence that it will be read a second time.
  THE EARL OF MORAY: My Lords, I welcome the Bill now before the House as a move in the right direction. I should, however, have preferred that the close time should commence on 1st October rather than on the l5th, but this may be taken as a tentative Measure which can be amended if it is found not to work well. I beg to support the Second Reading of the Bill.

  LUNACY BILL.
  Motion made, and Question proposed —
  "That this Bill be read a second time."—{The Lord Chancellor.)
  THE LORD CHANCELLOR (The Earl of HALSBURY): It is with confidence I ask your Lordships to read this Bill a second time, as it has been twice before your Lordships' House. The only subject of controversy had reference to the question of the salaries of assistants and attendants in asylums of a public charac-
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  ter, and in the event of opposition being again raised to these clauses I propose to strike them out, as the other matters with which the Bill deals are of a serious nature, and require urgent amendment.
  Question put.
  Bill read a second time.

  SUPREME COURT (APPEALS) BILL.
  Bill passed through Committee without Amendment.
  Motion made, and Question proposed —
  "That the Standing Committee be negatived."—(The Lord Chancellor.)
  THE LORD CHANCELLOR: I thought it would be better that the Bill should go through in the regular form, because I propose to move that the Standing Committee be negatived, and if there was any objection to be raised to any part of the Bill I thought an opportunity ought to be given. This Bill alters, as I think your Lordships are aware, one section in the Judicature Act whereby there requires to be in the Court of Appeal three judges sitting in order to hear an appeal. It has been brought to my attention that on a number of occasions parties would have been very glad, when there was some difficulty in forming the full Court of Appeal by the sitting of three judges, to have agreed to a hearing before two judges, but were not prepared to do so, as it would be forfeiting their right to appeal to your Lordships' House, as that court would have been a court by agreement and not a court established by law. The result would have been bound by the decision of the Court of Appeal with no right whatever to appeal here. This Bill is designed to preserve the right of further appeal to the House of Lords in cases where two judges have by consent of the parties heard the case in the Appeal Court.

  LAND CHARGES BILL [H.L.]
  To be read a second time on Thursday next.

  ARMY (ANNUAL) BILL.
  Read a first time; to be printed; and to be read a second time on Thursday next; and Standing Orders NOS. XXXIX. and XLV. to be considered in order to their being dispensed with. (No. 46.)
  Motion made, and Question proposed—
  "That this House do now adjourn."—(The Marquess of Lansdowne.)

  ST. PAUL'S CATHEDRAL.
  THE EARL OF WEMYSS: Before the House adjourns, I should like to say that on Friday I propose putting two questions to the Government with reference to what is called the decoration of St. Paul's. I do not know who will answer on behalf of the Government, but I only hope that before the noble Lord does so, he will go to St. Paul's and see for himself what is going on —a course which I would also recommend other members of your Lordships' House to pursue.
  House adjourned at forty-five minutes after Four of the clock.