Lords Sitting of 13 May 1898

Preamble
THE LORD CHANCELLORtook his seat on the Woolsack at a Quarter past Four of the clock.
PRIVATE BILL BUSINESS.
  STAINES RESERVOIRS JOINT COMMITTEE.
  Ordered to lie on the Table.
  FORRES WATER BILL. [H.L.]
  Read, and ordered to lie oh the Table.
  CHIPSTEAD VALLEY RAILWAY BILL. [H.L.]
  Commons' Amendments considered, and agreed to.
  BACUP CORPORATION WATER BILL. [H.L.]
  Reported from the Select Committee, with Amendments.
  SAINT THOMAS, SOUTHWARK, AND SAINT SAVIOUR, SOUTHWARK, BILL. [H.L.]
  On Re-commitment; Reported with a further Amendment.
  GREAT NORTHERN RAILWAY BILL.
  Order made yesterday appointing certain Lords the Select Committee to consider the Bill, discharged.
  HAMILTON WATER BILL. [H.L.]
  Reported with Amendments.
  NEWHAVEN HARBOUR AND OUSE LOWER NAVIGATION BILL. [H.L.]
  Read third time, passed, and sent to the Commons.
  BROMPTON, CHATHAM, GILLINGHAM, AND ROCHESTER WATER BILL.
  Brought from the Commons; Read the first time, and referred to the Examiners.
  IPSWICH DOCK COMMISSION BILL.
  Brought from the Commons; Read the first time, and referred to the Examiners.
  LLANELLY AND PONTARDULAIS RAILWAY BILL.
  Brought from the Commons; Read the first time, and referred to the Examiners.
  LONDON COUNTY COUNCIL (ACTON SEWAGE) BILL.
  Brought from the Commons; Read the first time, and referred to the Examiners.
  LONDON AND NORTH WESTERN RAILWAY (STEAM VESSELS) BILL. [H.L.]
  Returned from Commons, agreed to.
  ROCHDALE CORPORATION WATER BILL. [H.L.]
  Report from the Committee of Selection, That the Lord RIBBLESDALE be proposed to the House as a member of the Select Committee on the Bill in the place of the Lord BOYLE (E. CORK AND ORRERY); Read, and agreed to.
  TODMORDEN CORPORATION WATER BILL. [H.L.]
  Report from the Committee of Selection, That the Lord RIBBLESDALE be proposed to the House as a member of the Select Committee on the Bill in the place of the Lord BOYLE (E. CORK AND ORRERY); Read, and agreed to.
PROVISIONAL ORDER BILLS.
  LOCAL GOVERNMENT PROVISIONAL ORDERS (No. 3) BILL.
  Brought from the Commons; Read the first time; to be printed; and referred to the Examiners. [No. 70.]
  LOCAL GOVERNMENT PROVISIONAL ORDERS (No. 1) BILL.
  To be read the second time on Monday next.—(Lord Harris.)
  LOCAL GOVERNMENT PROVISIONAL ORDERS (No. 2) BILL.
  To be read the second time on Monday next.—(Lord Harris.)
RETURNS, REPORTS, ETC.

  ARMY (SPECIAL PENSIONS).
  Return for the year ended 31st March, 1898, of pensions specially granted under Articles 730, 1170, and 1207 of the Army Pay Warrant.
  Presented (by command), and ordered to lie on the Table.

  WELSH INTERMEDIATE EDUCATION ACT, 1889.
  Report of the Charity Commissioners for England and Wales.
  Presented (by command), and ordered to lie on the Table.

  NAVY (HYDROGRAPHER'S REPORT).
  Report on Admiralty surveys for the year 1897.
  Presented (by command), and ordered to lie on the Table.

  TRADE REPORTS, 1898.
  Annual Series: Diplomatic and Consular Reports on Trade and Finance: No. 2090. China (Kiu-kiang).
  Presented (by command), and ordered to lie on the Table.

  TURKEY No. 2 (1898).
  Correspondence respecting the Negotiations for the Conclusion of Peace between Turkey and Greece.
  Presented (by command), and ordered to lie on the Table.

PUBLIC BUSINESS.
  COPYRIGHT BILL [H.L.] AND COPYRIGHT AMENDMENT BILL. [H.L.]
  The EARL of SELBORNE added to the Select Committee.
  LUNACY BILL. [H.L.]
  House to be in Committee on Tuesday next.
BUSINESS OF THE HOUSE.

  CERTIFICATES OF BRITISH REGISTRY.
  LORD MUSKERRY: My Lords, I beg to ask Her Majesty's Government whether, in view of the war between Spain and the United States, they will take measures to prevent Spanish and United States vessels obtaining provisional certificates of British registry; such certificates and the power of flying the British flag being only intended for use during the war? My Lords, during the late Græco-Turkish War a number of

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  Greek vessels applied for and obtained provisional certificates of British registry from our Consuls. They did not complete the registration. They simply made use of our flag during the war for their protection, and the moment the war was over hauled down the British ensign and hoisted the Greek flag again. In fact, one Greek vessel came into Cardiff flying the English ensign, and left flying the Greek flag, the war having ceased during her stay at Cardiff. I think, my Lords, no British certificate of registration should be granted to any ship that is not at least commanded and officered by British subjects. We are neglecting our shipping interests shamefully, and giving every facility to foreign vessels to compete with us. I am afraid, my Lords, that if we were ever so unfortunate as to be at war with a strong naval Power we Should suffer from this neglect very seriously. We have plenty of warships, but how about the men to man them? We have to fall back on the mercantile marine to make up for any losses through war, and we have also to depend on the mercantile marine for our supplies of food. The true granary of England is, I think, her ships. As long as we keep command of the sea there is no need for State granaries at all. Also, my Lords, this mercantile marine to which we shall have to look in case of war—I may call it the First Reserve of the Empire—has been neglected, and I make the first move in the interests of and to safeguard the shipping in some way. I strongly urge that Her Majesty's Government should forbid any certificates, either provisional or otherwise, of British registration to be granted to any ships which are not at least commanded and officered by British subjects. I beg, my Lords, to ask the question which stands in my name.
  THE PRIME MINISTER (The MARQUESS of SALISBURY): My Lords, Her Majesty's Government are very sensible of the importance of avoiding a mere colourable transfer of register of ownership, and would be very glad to adopt any plan by which, without injury to
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  greater interests, that practice could be discouraged and prevented. They are now in communication with the Board of Trade, considering the matter, to see if any precautions can be adopted which will effectively prevent the merely colourable transfer of ownership, without creating undue difficulties in the way of ordinary commercial transactions. I have no difference in point of principle with my noble Friend in this respect, and if we fail ultimately to satisfy him, it will rather be because we are not able to discover the means of baffling the innumerable modes of counterfeiting and evading the law which, under such circumstances, may be expected to be employed; but I gather from the tone of my noble Friend's remarks that he wished to go further, and wished to use this prerogative of the Government for the purpose of insisting that there should be a certain number of English commanders and of English crews. That, he will observe, is a very much larger question. It belongs really to that class of controversy of which some of us are old enough to remember the last remains, when the Navigation Laws were abolished. Without entering upon a discussion which could hardly be taken satisfactorily on so small an issue, and without pronouncing anything dogmatically, I think I may fairly say this, that if we alter our policy in that respect it should be on a larger scale, and with a more definite view of what we are doing, than if we were merely to attempt to enter upon a small portion of it by diverting this power possessed by the Board of Trade to an object for which it was not intended. Therefore I do not think that in our communications with the Board of Trade we shall attempt to compass the setting up of what I think my noble Friend called the First Reserve of the Empire, in the shape of merchant ships entirely manned and owned by British subjects. That question is a very large one, and I do not think it will be desirable to touch it further.
  House adjourned at 4.40.