Lords Sitting of 12 May 1898

Preamble
THE LORD CHANCELLORtook his seat on the Woolsack at Four of the clock.
NEW PEER.
WILBRAHAM BARON EGERTON having been created VISCOUNT SALFORD in the county palatine of Lancaster and EARL EGERTON OF TATTON in the county palatine of Chester was (in the usual manner) introduced.
PROVISIONAL ORDER BILLS.
  EDUCATION DEPARTMENT PROVISIONAL ORDER CONFIRMATION (LONDON). [H.L.]
  Ordered to lie on the Table.
  EDUCATION DEPARTMENT PROVISIONAL ORDER CONFIRMATION (BARNES, ETC.). [H.L.]
  Ordered to lie on the Table.
PRIVATE BILL BUSINESS.
  SWANSEA GAS BILL. [H.L.]
  Commons Amendments considered and agreed to.
  WATERFORD CITY GAS BILL. [H.L.]
  Commons Amendments considered and agreed to.
  CLONTARF AND HILL OF HOWTH TRAMROAD BILL. [H.L.]
  Reported from the Select Committee with Amendments.
  HEYWOOD CORPORATION WATER BILL. [H.L.]
  Orders made on the 28th of February and Monday last discharged; and Bill committed.
  SEAHAM HARBOUR BILL. [H.L.]
  Orders made on the 21st of March and Monday last discharged; and Bill committed.
  YORK UNITED GAS BILL.
  Read the second time, and committed.
  CORPORATION OF LONDON (FOREIGN CATTLE MARKET, DEPTFORD) BILL.
  Read the second time, and committed.
  POWELL DUFFRYN STEAM COAL COMPANY BILL. [H.L.]
  Read the third time, passed, and sent to the Commons.
  WIRRAL RAILWAY BILL. [H.L.]
  Read the third time; Amendments made; Bill passed, and sent to the Commons.
  LONDON, CHATHAM AND DOVER RAILWAY BILL. [H.L.]
  Read the third time, passed, and sent to the Commons.
  MILFORD DOCKS BILL. [H.L.]
  Read the third time, passed, and sent to the Commons.
  BLACKPOOL IMPROVEMENT BILL. [H.L.]
  Read the third time, passed, and sent to the Commons.

  SELECT COMMITTEE.
  City and Brixton Railway Bill; Great Eastern Railway (General Powers) Bill; London, Walthamstow and Epping Forest Railway Bill; Thanet Gas Bill; Knott End Railway Bill; Great Northern Railway Bill; Lancashire and Yorkshire Railway Bill; Report from the Committee of Selection, That the following Lords be proposed to the House to form the Select Committee for the consideration of the said Bills, viz.—

  E. Chesterfield,

  E. Gainsborough,

  L. Churchill,

  L. Ormonde (M. Ormonde),

  L. Herries (Chairman).

  Agreed to.

RETURNS, REPORTS, ETC.

  NEWFOUNDLAND.
  Correspondence relative to a contract for the sale of the Government Railway, and for other purposes.
  Presented (by command), and ordered to lie on the Table.

  MISCELLANEOUS (1898), No. 1.
  Law respecting nationality and naturalisation in Denmark.
  Presented (by command), and ordered to lie on the Table.

  TRADE REPORTS, 1898.
  Annual Series: Diplomatic and Consular Reports on Trade and Finance:

  No. 2080. Brazil (Rio Grande do Sul and Porto Algere);

  No. 2081. United States (New York);

  No. 2082. United States (Baltimore);

  No. 2083. Turkey (Aleppo and Adana);

  No. 2084. Portugal (Marmagao);

  No. 2085. United States (Chicago);

  No. 2086. China (Shashih);

  No. 2087. Belgium (Ghent);

  No. 2088. Colombia (Panama);

  No. 2089. Portugal (Madeira);

  Presented (by command), and ordered to lie on the Table.

  UNIVERSAL POSTAL UNION.
  Convention of Washington, 15th June 1897.
  Presented (by command), and ordered to lie on the Table.

  INDIA.
  1. Estimate of Revenue and Expenditure of the Government of India for the year 1897–98; compared with the results of 1896–97.

  2. Finance and Revenue Accounts of the Government of India for the year 1896–97.

  3. Home Accounts of the Government of India.

  Laid before the House (pursuant to Act), and ordered to lie on the Table.

  PHARMACY ACTS (IRELAND) 1875 AND 1890.
  Order in Council, dated 9th May 1898, approving of regulations made by the Pharmaceutical Society.
  Laid before the House (pursuant to Act), and ordered to lie on the Table.

  ENDOWED SCHOOLS ACT, 1869, AND AMENDING ACTS.
  Scheme for the management of the following foundations in parish of St. Botolph, Aldgate, partly in the city and partly in the county of London—

  1. The parochial schools;

  2. The Charity of Henry Petter, for the charity school in the said parish founded by will dated 7th November 1735;

  Laid before the House (pursuant to Act), and to be printed. [No. 69.]

PUBLIC BUSINESS.

  ATTENDANCE OF CHILDREN AT SCHOOL (SCOTLAND) BILL. [H.L.]
  THE SECRETARY FOR SCOTLAND (Lord BALFOUR of BURLEIGH): My Lords, in presenting this Bill, and asking your Lordships to give it a Second Reading, I do not think I shall have much difficulty in making out a good case for legislation upon some such lines as is here proposed. Under the rules which at present exist in Scotland as to school attendance, it is matter of common remark, and of as common regret, that many of those who attend the public elementary schools give up attendance at an unduly early age, and at a time of their life and after an attainment of such a standard that the efforts which they have previously made and the money which has been spent upon them fail to produce any permanent effect. I am sure your Lordships will agree that any serious inconsistency between the statutes compelling school attendance and those which regulate employment necessarily produces considerable inconvenience and disadvantage, and it is part of my case that such a discrepancy as I have indicated does really exist at the present time and is productive of very serious evil. My Lords, I need not go through all the steps by which the result has been
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  attained, but so far as the Education Acts at present in force in Scotland are concerned the position to which we have now got is this: efficient elementary instruction in reading, writing, and arithmetic must be provided for every child between the ages of 5 and 14. No child under 10 can be taken into regular employment as defined by the Factory Acts, and in respect of what is called "casual employment" can only be engaged in the limited amount which is prescribed in two sections of the Act of 1878. Thirdly, a child between 10 and 14 cannot be employed half time unless he has passed in all the subjects of the Third Standard, and cannot be totally exempted from the obligation to attend school unless he has passed in all the three subjects of Standard 5. Now, my Lords, taking the figures of the last three or four years, and taking them upon the question of age, in the first instance we find that there were, three years ago, between the ages of 11 and 12, 88,000 children in attendance in the public elementary schools; in the following year there were, between the ages of 12 and 13, only 68,000 children, and between the ages of 13 and 14, only 39,000 children in attendance. Taking it by standards, and comparing the standards, which are nearly equivalent to the ages which I have just given, I find that three years ago there were, in Standard 4, 80,000 children; in Standard 5, 68,000 children; and in Standard 6, 30,000. These figures abundantly prove that both by age and standard a large proportion of the population do not extend their education beyond the subjects which are embraced in Standard 5. Now, my Lords, a clever child could quite easily pass that standard on reaching the age of 12—some of them can pass it before—and when they have passed it, under the existing state of the law, they are entitled to leave school, if they have got their labour certificate, although they could not be taken into any regular employment, and even though they do not intend to attempt it. I venture to turn aside a moment to say that part of the administrative regulations which I find in existence at the present time seem really to lead up to this very result, and actually to persuade parents and children that

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  although the Education Acts state that children are to stay at school until they are 13, they can secure a labour certificate at 12, and even sometimes at 11, whether they are going into regular employment or not. Examinations for labour certificates are sometimes held at the very time the inspector is present to examine the school, and children are presented, the circumstances of whose parents do not really require that they should go to work; and partly from a desire on the part of the children to leave school, partly from indifference so far as the parents are concerned, they get a labour certificate, and are thereby exempted from attendance at school, although they do not require to go to work. I propose, by an alteration of the regulations, to make a change in that respect, and to hold out less inducement to children to take the labour certificate when they really do not require it. I venture to think that it is necessary to pass some such Bill as this in order that more stringent regulations may be provided. It will be agreed by all those who really care about these matters that the standard of attainment represented by the Fifth Standard of the Scotch Code is really the minimum of what is likely to be of any use to children in after life, and then only of use if it is permanently fixed in their minds, and if the work which they have done to pass that standard is really known by them in such a way as to remain permanently in their intelligence. Now, my Lords, unless the mere "pass" of the Fifth Standard is followed by a certain amount of further attendance for the purpose of revising and confirming the work that has already been done, I am afraid many of the results attained will not be useful to the children in after life. I do not say that it is necessary that a child should pass the Sixth Standard for this purpose, but I do say it is most desirable that they should stay some time longer at school, if it is possible for them to do so. Anything which will serve to prevent these children leaving school after merely passing the Fifth Standard, who do not require for other reasons to leave school, should receive the careful consideration of Parliament and those interested in education. I put it, not only on the ground of education, because
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  I think your Lordships will agree with me that education is only one side of the advantages which are obtained by attendance at school. There is also the discipline, which is extremely useful to the children; but, my Lords, the present system, as I have endeavoured to explain to your Lordships, does not allow children in all cases who have passed the Fifth Standard to go to work, and therefore, although they may leave school, and the law is powerless to prevent them, they do not pass from one discipline to the other. My Lords, I do not hesitate to say that personally I should like to see a minimum age of 13 before which children should not leave school to go to work, and I should like to extend that time to the age of 14, unless the children concerned have passed the standard for exemption. However, I cordially agree that it would be impossible to do that by Statute at the present time. I cordially agree that in many cases it would be in advance of the public opinion of the localities concerned, and in the long run would not therefore achieve any useful result. I know, too, that there are many cases in which the small earnings of children are necessary to some struggling households, but that argument does not touch the case of those children who do not belong to such households, and who get the labour certificate whether they really require to go to work or not. My Lords, the difficulty which I have tried to explain to your Lordships is widely felt in Scotland, and here I am bound to confess that in this matter I think Scotland can learn a good deal from England. We sometimes think, and it is perhaps too much thought, in Scotland, that we know a great deal more about education than is the case south of the Tweed, but I am obliged to confess, in regard to this particular matter with which my Bill deals, that the state of the law is better in England than it is in Scotland. In England the standard for exemption from labour is settled in different districts upon the initiation of the School Board of the district, and by means of bye-laws approved by the Privy Council. In some cases the standard of exemption is fixed in England lower than the minimum in Scotland, and in others it is very much higher. I find from the Returns of the

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  English Education Department that no less than 12,000,000 of the population in England are under by-laws, which provide that Standard 6 should be the standard of exemption for going to work, and I understand that quite recently the London School Board passed a by-law—whether it has been actually confirmed or not I am not quite sure—making Standard 7 the standard of exemption. Now, my Lords, the Bill which I am asking your Lordships to read a second time does not propose to allow any School Boards in Scotland to lower the minimum which we have had for some years, but it does propose to copy the English provision, and allow any School Board, which thinks it will be in accordance with the public opinion of the locality to do so, to approach the Scotch Education Department and the Privy Council, with the view of having a higher standard than Standard 5 fixed as the standard for obtaining the labour certificate of the district. I quite agree that if this provision were put into force a considerable discretion would have to be allowed to remain with the School Boards. I recognise that there are many families, unfortunately, who must depend, to a large extent, on the earnings of the children; but there are two classes of such families. There are the respectable and hard-working poor, who do all they can to get their children regularly to school; and there are others who, throughout the whole school life of their children, take no real interest in their education. I do not think the latter are entitled to the same consideration as those who, from the other circumstances which I have endeavoured to indicate, really require to depend to some extent upon the earnings of the children. My Lords, this is an enabling Measure; it does not propose to raise the standard in any district compulsorily. I believe many districts are ready for such a provision, and, indeed, many School Boards have, with the full consent of those they represent, passed resolutions in favour of amending the law in some such respect as this. I believe it is a feeling which will largely grow, and, whether this Measure should meet with
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  the sanction of both Houses of Parliament this Session or not, I believe it is one which will have to come, and one which will be more and more asked for as time goes on. I am hopeful that it may pass this Session. At any rate, I beg now to ask your Lordships to read it a second time.
  THE EARL OF CRANBROOK: May I ask my noble Friend whether it is the intention under this Bill to give School Boards power to distinguish between families which are supposed to be entitled to exemption, because they are hard-working people, and other families which are not to be exempted because they are supposed to be of a reckless or careless character? If so, it is placing a very large judicial power into the hands of School Boards which I do not think they ought to possess.
  THE SECRETARY FOR SCOTLAND: Such a dispensing power, or, at any rate, a considerable discretionary power, is exercised in all the districts where the standard has been raised under the English system.
  Question put.
  Bill read a second time.

  UNIVERSITIES (SCOTLAND) ACTS AMENDMENT BILL. [H.L.]
  Read the third time (according to order), passed, and sent to the Commons.
  COPYRIGHT BILL. [H.L.]
  The EARL of CREWE named of the Select Committee in the place of the LORD FARRER.

  COPYRIGHT (AMENDMENT) BILL. [H.L.]
  The EARL of CREWE named of the Select Committee in the place of the LORD FARRER.
  House adjourned at 4.50.