Lords Sitting of 30 June 1898

Preamble
THE LORD CHANCELLORtook his seat on the Woolsack at a Quarter past Four of the clock.
PRIVATE BILL BUSINESS.
THE LORD CHANCELLOR THE LORD CHANCELLOR acquainted the House that the Clerk of the Parliaments had laid upon the Table the Certificate from the Examiners that no Standing Orders are applicable to the following Bill:
COMMONS REGULATION (RUNCORN) PROVISIONAL ORDER.
The same was ordered to lie on the Table.
STANDING ORDERS COMMITTEE.
Report from, That the Standing Orders not complied with in respect of the

LONDON COUNTY COUNCIL (GENERAL POWERS) BILL.
ought to be dispensed with and the Bill allowed to proceed.
Read, and agreed to.

BLACKBURN CORPORATION (TRAMWAYS, ETC.) BILL.
Committed: The Committees to be proposed by the Committee of Selection.
MIDDLESEX COUNTY COUNCIL BILL.
Committed: The Committees to be proposed by the Committee of Selection.
WINDSOR DOCK, CARDIFF, BILL.
Committed: The Committees to be proposed by the Committee of Selection.
TOTTENHAM AND EDMONTON GAS BILL.
Reported with Amendments.
CARDIFF CORPORATION BILL.
Reported with Amendments.
BIRMINGHAM, NORTH WARWICKSHIRE, AND STRATFORD-UPON-AVON RAILWAY (EXTENSION OF TIME) BILL.
Reported from the Select Committee without Amendment.
SAINT MARYLEBONE CHURCHES BILL. [H.L.]
Reported with Amendments.
GREAT EASTERN RAILWAY COMPANY, AND MIDLAND AND GREAT NORTHERN RAILWAYS JOINT COMMITTEE BILL.
Reported with Amendments.
GREAT EASTERN RAILWAY (PENSIONS) BILL.
Reported with Amendments.
CRANBROOK DISTRICT WATER BILL.
Reported with Amendments.
NORTH BRITISH RAILWAY BILL. [H.L.]
Reported with Amendments.
ST. DAVID'S RAILWAY BILL.
Reported without Amendment.
MANCHESTER CARRIAGE AND TRAMWAYS COMPANY BILL. [H.L.]
Reported from the Select Committee with Amendments.
SOUTHAMPTON GAS BILL.
Report from the Select Committee, That the Committee had not proceeded with the consideration of the Bill, the opposition thereto having been withdrawn; read, and ordered to lie on the Table; The orders made on the 16th instant and Thursday last discharged; and Bill committed.
WIGAN CORPORATION BILL.
Report from the Select Committee, That the Committee had not proceeded with the consideration of the Bill, the opposition thereto having been withdrawn; read, and ordered to lie on the Table; the orders made on the 15th instant and Thursday last discharged; and Bill committed for to-morrow.
NEWCASTLE-UPON-TYNE CORPORATION BILL. [H.L.]
Reported from the Select Committee with Amendments.
LONDON COUNTY COUNCIL (GENERAL POWERS) BILL.
Moved, That the order made on the 8th day of March last, "That no private Bill brought from the House of Commons shall be read a second time after Tuesday, the 28th day of June next," be dispensed with, and that the Bill be read a second time; agreed to; Bill read a second time accordingly.
NORTHAM URBAN DISTRICT WATER BILL.
Read the third time, with the Amendment, and passed, and returned to the Commons.
NORTH WARWICKSHIRE WATER BILL.
Read the third time, with the Amendments, and passed, and returned to the Commons.
PUBLIC BILLS.
  BENEFICES (No. 2) BILL.
  Brought from the Commons, and read first time.
  POST OFFICE (LOCAL AUTHORITY GUARANTEE) BILL.
  Brought from the Commons, and read first time.
  LOCAL GOVERNMENT PROVISIONAL ORDERS (No. 5) BILL.
  Brought from the Commons, and read first time.
  LOCAL GOVERNMENT PROVISIONAL ORDERS (No. 7) BILL.
  Brought from the Commons, and read first time
  LOCAL GOVERNMENT PROVISIONAL ORDERS (No. 9) BILL.
  Brought from the Commons, and read first time.
BILLS ADVANCED.
  LINCOLN AND EAST COAST RAILWAY AND DOCK BILL.
  Brought from the Commons; read the first time; and referred to the Examiners.
  THANET GAS BILL.
  Returned from the Commons with the Amendments agreed to.
  LOCAL GOVERNMENT PROVISIONAL ORDERS (No. 6) BILL.
  Committed to a Committee of the whole House.
  WATER ORDERS CONFIRMATION BILL. [H.L.]
  House to be in Committee to-morrow.
  TRAMWAYS ORDERS CONFIRMATION (No. 3) BILL. [H.L.]
  House to be in Committee to-morrow.
  PIER AND HARBOUR PROVISIONAL ORDERS (No. 2) BILL. [H.L.]
  House to be in Committee to-morrow.
  LAND DRAINAGE PROVISIONAL ORDER (HACCONBY FEN) BILL.
  House to be in Committee to-morrow.
  METROPOLITAN POLICE PROVISIONAL ORDER BILL.
  House to be in Committee on Monday next.

  ELECTRIC LIGHTING PROVISIONAL ORDER (No. 15) BILL. [H.L.]
  Motion made—
  "That the Sessional Order of the 8th of March, 1898, 'That no Provisional Order Confirmation Bill, originating in this House, shall be read a first time after Tuesday, the 3rd day of May next,' be dispensed with in respect of a Bill to confirm a Provisional Order granted by the Board of Trade under the Electric Lighting Acts, 1882 and 1888, to the Midland Electric Corporation for Power Distribution, Limited, in respect of an area situate in the county of Stafford."—(The Earl of Dudley.)
  THE EARL OF DUDLEY: My Lords, the Sessional Order which I would ask your
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  Lordships to dispense with as regards this Bill, provided that no Provisional Order Bill should be read a first time after the 3rd of May. I am quite aware that some time has elapsed from that date, but I would ask your Lordships to forego that provision and allow this Bill to be introduced, because this Session several matters connected with electric lighting had to be decided by a Select Committee, and until we were able to obtain the Report of that Select Committee this Provisional Order could not be introduced. Under those circumstances, my Lords, I hope the House will agree to my Motion.
  THE CHAIRMAN OF COMMITTEES (The EARL of MORLEY): My Lords, I make no objection to the Motion which has bean brought forward by my noble Friend. This Provisional Order deals with a case that distinctly comes within the purview of the Report of the Joint Committee of the two Houses that sat last month, under the presidence of the Lord Privy Seal, and I shall not make any objection to this Bill being now introduced, as it could not be introduced until the Report of the Committee was before the House.
  Motion agreed to.

  EDUCATION DEPARTMENT PROVISIONAL ORDER CONFIRMATION (LONDON) BILL. [H.L.]
  Amendments reported (according to order), and Bills to be read a third time to-morrow.
  LOCAL GOVERNMENT (IRELAND) PROVISIONAL ORDERS (No. 3) BILL.
  Amendments reported (according to order), and Bills to be read a third time to-morrow.
  ELECTRIC LIGHTING PROVISIONAL ORDERS (No. 7) BILL. [H.L.]
  House in Committee (according to order): Bills reported without Amendment: Standing Committee negatived; and Bills to be read a third time tomorrow.
  ELECTRIC LIGHTING PROVISIONAL ORDERS (No. 8) BILL [H.L.]
  House in Committee (according to order): Bills reported without Amendment: Standing Committee negatived; and Bills to be read a third time to-morrow.

  EAST INDIA LOAN BILL.
  *THE UNDER SECBETAEY FOR INDIA (the EARL OF ONSLOW): My Lords, the Bill that I have to ask your Lordships to give a second reading to is of a similar character to many other Bills which, during the last quarter of a century, have received the approval of your Lordships' House. In 1874 a similar Bill, which enabled the Secretary of State to borrow £10,000,000, was passed by Parliament. In 1877 a Bill was passed to enable the borrowing of £5,000,000; in 1879, to enable a further £5,000,000 to be borrowed; and in 1885, for a further £10,000,000. On the last occasion the Bill was introduced by the noble Earl opposite, who was then Secretary for India, to enable the Secretary of State to borrow £10,000,000. On that occasion there was in this House a considerable discussion on the question of the currency in India. I am glad that to-night it is not necessary for me to enter upon that thorny and difficult question, because, in the first place, a Committee is at this moment considering the proposals which have been made by the Government of India in that direction; and, in the second place, because this Measure has nothing whatever to do with the question of currency. The Secretary of State has given a pledge that none of the money to be raised under it shall be applied to the promotion of currency proposals. My Lords, there are three objects for which this Bill is introduced. The first is that very satisfactory one which, owing to the increasing reduction in the value of money, has been made use of by many States and many Corporations who are in the enjoyment of credit—I mean for the purpose of reducing the amount of interest which is paid upon their loans. In August of this year £3,000,000 of 3¼ per cent. Indian Debentures will mature, and it is proposed to repay those debentures and to borrow the money at
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  a cheaper rate. There have also been £384,700 of Railway Debentures paid off, which bore interest at 4 per cent., and which will be replaced by debentures bearing a lower rate of interest. The home net expenditure of India is estimated at £16,286,500, and it is proposed out of this loan to utilise £286,500 for the purposes of that expenditure, drawing from the Government of India for the £16,000,000. It is proposed to raise at once an amount of £6,000,000, and the expenditure which I have already indicated will absorb £3,671,000 of that amount. The balance will be expended in remunerative enterprise—in the construction of railways. I think that that is an expenditure which will meet with your Lordships' approval, because, in addition to the expenditure in wages, which is involved by the construction and maintenance of railways in India, the provision of easy communication between different parts is one of the most highly valued works the Government can introduce. My Lords, there is one penalty, if I may use that expression, which India has to pay for the system of Government under which she lives at this time, and that is that owing to our administration those dread calamities of pestilence of famine, which used to decimate the population and devastate the country no longer do so to anything like the same extent, with the result that the real problem for Indian statesmen now is, what are we to do with the rapidly increasing population of India? I believe, my Lords, that in no other way can that be dealt with so satisfactorily as by increasing the means of communication between different parts of India. During the time of the late famine some 829,000,000 of units—that is to say, one person for one day—were relieved by the Government of India, and I think for the first time in the history of India, when a famine occurred as widespread as the one of the past three years, we can say that in every case the grain that was wanted for the sustenance of the population was to be found at the spot where it was most wanted. This was due to the improved means of transport by rail. But these are not the principal objects for which this Bill is introduced. The principal object is that the Secretary for India may have a reserve of borrowing power in case

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  of emergency. In the beginning of 1897 there remained under the Bill of the noble Earl opposite borrowing powers to the extent of £9,900,000. A telegram received from the Viceroy stating that, owing to a temporary failure of revenue and heavy famine advances, the drawings of bills on India must be cheeked, rendered it necessary in January, 1897, to borrow £1,000,000 on India (sterling) bills, leaving the borrowing powers at £8,900,000. The Budget of March following announced that he would issue stock to the extent of £3,500,000, and a further sum of £1,000,000 on sterling bills would be borrowed, the Government of India balances not admitting of more than £13,000,000 being remitted from India. The stock was issued in May, thus reducing the borrowing powers of the Secretary of State to £5,400,000. On the 3rd of August the Government of India telegraphed that their balances were most insecure in the face of the famine and possibilities of war, and it was arranged to strengthen them by purchasing a crore of rupees of drafts on India. On the 31st of the same month, however, the Viceroy again telegraphed that there should be a further restriction of the drawings, and on the 1st of September the Secretary of State announced that the sale of bills would be suspended for 10 weeks. It was eventually not found possible to resume them at all till the 15th of December last year, and not freely till February, 1898. To strengthen the Home Treasury, sterling bills were issued for £2,500,000 on September 14, 1897, and £2,500,000 on November 29, 1897, thus reducing the borrowing powers to about £400,000. As Parliament rose on August 6, you will see that unless the borrowing powers of the Secretary of State had chanced at the same time to be largely unexhausted grave consequences might have arisen, for it is difficult to see how it would have been possible to have avoided summoning Parliament to authorise the Secretary of State to borrow further money, a course which would have been fraught with much misunderstanding, and would have led to the idea that the financial situation in India was very much more serious than in reality it was. That, my Lords, is the third reason and most important reason why I ask your
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  Lordships to give a Second Reading to this Bill, in order that there may be reserved to the Secretary of State the power to borrow in case of emergency. It is not intended at the present time to add to the existing debt of the Government of India more than £2,615,000. When it is remembered that the additional burden on Indian revenues during the last three exceptional years amounted to the enormous sum of Rx.24,000,000, and that no less than Rx.18,000,000 of this has been met out of ordinary revenue, I think your Lordships will agree with me that the finances of India are in a fairly stable condition. That is no doubt largely due to the fact that there has been a marked rise in the exchange value of the rupee. This shows a degree of stability which contrasts not unfavourably with this country in times of adversity, for whereas in times of adversity the revenue of England is less stable, the revenue of India is as stable, or almost as stable, as it is in times of prosperity. I hope that, under the circumstances, your Lordships will see that this is only a Measure of ordinary Indian finance, and that you will not hesitate to give it a Second Reading. It is important that notice should be given early in the month which begins to-morrow, in order that the necessary arrangements may be made, and therefore I propose, so as to obtain the Royal assent to this Bill as soon as it has passed your Lordships' House, to ask your Lordships to suspend the Standing Orders to enable the Bill to be passed through all its stages at this sitting.
  THE EARL OF KIMBERLEY: My Lords, I entirely agree with the closing observation of the noble Earl, that this may be regarded as an ordinary Measure of Indian finance. As the noble Earl pointed out, it has, from time to time, always been found necessary to take power for the Secretary of State to borrow certain sums of money, and I think it would be perfectly obvious that it would be in the highest degree unsafe and impolitic to leave the Secretary of State without sufficient power to borrow money in case of emergency. I therefore entirely agree with the principle of the Bill, and I cannot see any possible reason why your Lordships should not pass it immediately, as the noble Earl

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  proposes. I wish, however, to say one word with regard to two or three of the remarks made by the noble Earl. I was very glad to hear him repeat the pledge given in the other House that no part of this money will be applied to the proposed reform of the currency. With regard to the money which is to be applied to the creation of new railways, I am not at all prepared to object to a moderate sum being spent in that manner. There is not the least doubt, as the noble Earl said, that it is of the highest importance that the railway system of India shall be as far as possible extended. At the same time I would point out that there is considerable difference between the application of money out of this loan, which would be a gold loan, for the purpose of constructing new railways, and the operation of the Indian Government, which has been going on for a considerable time, of spending money out of the revenue of India for the purpose of making new railways. The difference I mean is this: it is obvious that, unless for very good reasons, it is undesirable to increase the gold liability of the Government of India. It is those gold liabilities which create the main difficulty which has placed us in the present embarrassment as regards currency. I should deprecate any very large borrowing in this country of gold loans for the reason which I have stated, even for the purpose of extending railway communication. The noble Earl said it was upon the extension of the railway communication that the increased prosperity of India would depend, or largely depend, and the extremely difficult problem which is caused by the rapid increase in the population would be met. Railways are only one of the means which can increase the resources of India, and tend to meet the difficulty, and there cannot be a doubt that amongst the difficulties we have to contend with which bear upon this question is the difficulty of currency. There is no doubt as to the stability of the currency in India, but the difficulties which have arisen with regard to it tend very largely to prevent the investment of English capital in India. I do not think there is anything, not even the extension of railways, which is of such supreme importance as that we should be able to induce a permanent and continued flow of English money
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  into India. Until we do that I do not think we shall be able to develop the resources of that great country with the rapidity and certainty which we all desire. I make that one observation, because I think there are other matters which require equal attention to railways. I do not see the slightest objection to the Bill passing into law.
  Bill read a second time; Committee negatived; then Standing Order XXXIX. considered and dispensed with; Bill read the third time, and passed.

  POOR LAW UNIONS ASSOCIATION BILL.
  Order for Second Reading read.
  *EARL STANHOPE: My Lords, the Bill which I ask your Lordships to give a Second Reading to is one of extremely small dimensions; it consists practically of two clauses. The object of the Bill is to enable boards of guardians to contribute annually towards the expenses of the Poor Law Unions Association. These associations are really only of a consultative character. Their object is to confer about all questions appertaining to the powers and duties of guardians, and also to improvements in the machinery for the carrying out of the poor law provisions. Therefore they are entirely consultative. Similar powers have been given to county councils, who are allowed to subscribe towards central associations for the same purpose. Municipal corporations have the same power, and this Bill is really to make a more representative assembly than has hitherto prevailed in connection with' the poor law—a more truly representative body than the central committees. It is possible that the central committees of boards of guardians for the district may continue, but when a wide question of poor law administration is required to be discussed this association, which will be authorised by the Local Government Board, will come into existence, and will be really of a very useful character. I may say that the central committees of boards of guardians have existed since the year 1870, and I suppose many of your Lordships have attended such committees. The Local Government Board favours this proposal. It is very care-

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  fully guarded. The sum proposed to be contributed by each board of guardians is not to exceed £5. It is not to be spent at all, unless the board of guardians approves of the proposal at a meeting specially convened, and the two representatives are to be chosen by a resolution. I may say, my Lords, this Bill has been thoroughly considered in another place. It has been before the Standing Committee of the House of Commons, and after some consideration was carried. I trust that, because it is a simple matter, and a matter which really conduces to the good administration of the poor law, your Lordships will be disposed to give it a Second Reading. I therefore beg to move that this Bill be read a second time.
  Bill read a second time, and committed to a Committee of the whole House.

  LOCOMOTIVES ON HIGHWAYS BILL.
  House in Committee as ordered.

  CLAUSE 1.
  *THE EARL OF NORTHBROOK: My Lords, I have put down several Amendments on the Paper, some of them being almost entirely verbal, and the others to meet certain objections which have been brought to my notice by noble Lords and others, on behalf of the owners of traction engines. I will explain my Amendments as the clauses arise. My first Amendment is a purely verbal one, and is as follows—
  "Page 1, line 14, after '1861' insert 'as amended by this Act.'"
  Amendment agreed to.
  *THE EARL OF NORTHBROOK: My next Amendment is also a verbal one. It is—
  "Page 1, line 20, leave out 'one tree or log of timber of.'"
  It is ridiculous that a tree or a log of timber should be supposed to weigh 16 "tons, and therefore the words are unnecessary.
  Amendment agreed to.
  Question put—
  "That clause 1, as amended, stand part of the Bill."
  Motion agreed to.

  CLAUSE 2.
  *THE EARL OF NORTHBROOK: To this clause I move the following Amendment for convenience—
  "Page 2, leave out sub-sections (2), (3), (4), and insert them as a separate clause (erection and use of weighing machines) to follow clause 2."
  Amendment agreed to.
  Question put—
  "That clause 2, as amended, stand part of the Bill."
  Motion agreed to.

  CLAUSE 3.
  *THE EARL OF NORTHBROOK: I have to answer the question put to me by the noble Marquess the Prime Minister as to whether this Bill increases the number of persons to be employed with traction engines. It reduces the number by one. The number enacted in the present law is reduced by one by this Bill.
  Question put—
  "That clause 3 stand part of the Bill."
  Motion agreed to.

  CLAUSE 4.
  *THE EARL OF NORTHBROOK: I have an Amendment to propose to this clause in the interests of owners of traction engines. I move—
  "Page 3, line 38, after 'any' insert 'specified.'"
  I move this simply to render it necessary that the bridges over which traction engines shall not pass shall be specified in the by-laws made by the local authorities.
  LORD HARRIS: I am not quite sure that the result will not be that some words will have to be omitted. The

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  words "they are satisfied that" further on in the clause affect the whole clause, and at present I am not at all sure that the word "specified" is necessary, or if necessary, that the other words should not be left out. But I will reserve that.
  Amendment agreed to.
  *THE EARL OF NORTHBROOK: I now move—
  "Page 4, line 22, at the end of sub-section (3) insert the following words—
  "Provided that if and so soon as any by-law under this section is made, the authority making such by-law shall, in addition to the publication of the notice in reference to the making of such by-laws in pursuance of the Public Health Act, 1875, publish notice thereof once at least in the London Gazette one month before the hearing by the Local Government Board of the application to confirm the said by-law."
  The reason of this Amendment is that some owners of traction engines do not live in the country or places in which the by-laws are made, and by the Bill as it stood the advertisement might be only inserted in local papers. The only alteration made by this proviso is that there should be one advertisement, not the whole by-law, but only a notification that such a by-law has been made, put in the London Gazette. I should think there could be no objection to this Amendment.
  LORD HARRIS: I am advised that the wording is not quite as good as it might be.
  *THE EARL OF NORTHBROOK: That is possible.
  LORD HARRIS: I would suggest that the Amendment should read as follows—
  "Page 4, line 22, at the end of sub-section 3 insert the following words—
  "Provided that in addition to the notice of intention to apply for confirmation of any by-law which is required under this section, notice of such intention shall be given in the London Gazette one month at least before the hearing of the application."
  *THE EARL OF NORTHBROOK: I will accept the words of the noble Lord, as they are better than my own.
  Amendment agreed to.
  Question put—
  "That clause 4, as amended, stand part of the Bill."
  Motion agreed to.

  CLAUSE 5.
  *THE EARL OF NORTHBROOK: The Amendment I have to propose to this clause is also brought forward in consequence of representations made to me by noble Lords interested in the freedom of traction engines as far as possible. Subsection 5 of clause 5 enacts that—
  "The Local Government Board may refuse to consider any appeal under this section with regard to any bridge, if the question raised by the appeal has been already considered by them"—
  And the words proposed to be added in my Amendment are—
  "Provided that there is no change in the circumstances of the bridge or the traffic."
  The intention of the Amendment appears to me to be quite right; it is intended to allow the Local Government Board to consider an appeal if some substantial alteration has taken place in the bridge. I do not know whether the noble Lord opposite concurs with my Amendment, or whether he has any suggestion to make as to the exact wording of it. I move—
  "Page 4, line 27, after 'appeal' insert, 'Provided that there is no change in the circumstances of the bridge or the traffic.'"
  *LORD HARRIS: The provision as to refusal is not compulsory; it is permissive. The Local Government Board is not bound to refuse an appeal upon the grounds that the conditions of the bridge have been altered. Again, there is no definition as to what is meant by "the circumstances of the bridge having been altered." This Amendment, if adopted, might give the owners of traction engines an opportunity of pestering the Local Government Board upon any slight alteration. I am at present disinclined to accept the Amendment, and if my noble Friend will not press it now I will give consideration to the matter.
  *THE EARL OF NORTHBROOK: I will not press my Amendment after what has fallen from the noble Lord.
  Amendment, by leave, withdrawn.
  Question put—
  "That this clause stand part of the Bill."
  Motion agreed to.

  Question put—
  "That clause 6 stand part of the Bill."
  Motion agreed to.

  CLAUSE 7.
  *THE EARL OF NORTHBROOK: I beg to move the following Amendment to this clause—
  "Page 5, line 38, after 'purposes' insert 'or locomotive belonging to and used by a road authority.'"
  That Amendment is suggested by the London County Council, so that their own engines should be enabled to go along the roads. I do not think there can be any objection to that Amendment.
  *LORD HARRIS: It is not confined to the London County Council. In the terms of the Act it would apply to all those authorities covered by the Bill—county councils or municipal authorities. If they were exempt from taking out a licence for their locomotives, the idea being, of course, that a county council might own and use a traction engine for the purpose of hauling its own material, the locomotives might pass out of the area of the council's jurisdiction, and then would be traversing the roads of some other authority without a licence. I am not sure that that is advisable quite. I should say that as there is this capacity to travel considerable distances outside the area of the council's jurisdiction it would be reasonable that they should take out a licence in these other areas, and, if that is so, I think it is advisable that they should take out the licence in all areas.
  *THE EARL OF NORTHBROOK: Would the noble Lord be satisfied if I inserted
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  words to limit the power to the area of the authority—that is, within its own district?
  *LORD HARRIS: I will consider the point if you will withdraw the Amendment now.
  *THE EARL OF NORTHBROOK: I withdraw the Amendment.
  Amendment, by leave, withdrawn.
  *THE EARL OF NORTHBROOK: I have an Amendment to move to the 9th subsection of clause 7. It was represented to me, and I think the criticism was a good one, that the enactment that
  "a locomotive shall not be used on any highway in a county in which it is not licensed, except on payment to the council of the county, of a fee not exceeding two shillings and sixpence for each journey made,"
  was rather vague; and I propose, instead of the words "for each journey made," to insert the words "for each, day on which it is so used," making it quite clear how long the journey is to take.
  *LORD HARRIS: When I first saw the Bill I thought it was rather vague that the journey should not be defined. It seems a question whether the definition should be put into the clause itself or in the definition clause at the end. I do not object to the Amendment, but I am not quite sure that it is in the best place.
  Amendment agreed to.
  Question put—
  "That clause 7, as amended, stand part of the Bill."
  Motion agreed to.

  CLAUSE 8.
  *THE EARL OF NORTHBROOK: I beg to move the following Amendment, which is a purely verbal one—
  "Page 7, leave out from beginning of clause to 'shall' in line 12, and insert 'all locomotives not required to be licensed under this Act.'"

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  The section, as amended, will read—
  "All locomotives not required to be licensed under this Act shall be registered in the county in which they are ordinarily used, or to be used, in such manner as the county council may direct."
  Amendment agreed to.
  Question put—
  "That clause 8, as amended, stand part of the Bill."
  Motion, agreed to.
  Clauses 9, 10, 11, 12, and 13 ordered to stand part of the Bill.

  CLAUSE 14.
  *THE EARL OF NORTHBROOK: I move as an Amendment—
  "Page 9, line 17, leave out 'six' and insert 'five.'"
  The insertion of "six" was a mistake in the quotation of the clause.
  Amendment agreed to.
  Question put—
  "That clause 14, as amended, stand part of the Bill."
  Motion agreed to.
  Remaining clauses ordered to stand part of the Bill.

  SOLICITORS (IRELAND) BILL.
  Order for Second Reading read.
  LORD MACNAGHTEN: My Lord, I have to ask your Lordships to give a Second Reading to this Bill, which, has passed the House of Commons. The object is to place solicitors in Ireland on exactly the same footing as their professional brethren in England. The provisions of the Bill are matters of detail with which I will not trouble your Lordships. The Bill has received the consent of the legal authorities in Ireland, and it is identical with the Bill whch passed your Lordships' House in 1896.
  THE EARL OF DENBIGH: My Lords, I have only to say that this Bill has the Government's entire approval.
  Question put.
  Bill read a second time, and committed to a Committee of the whole House.

  ALIENS BILL.
  On the report of Amendments to this Bill,
  THE EARL OF KIMBERLEY: My Lords, I wish to say a single syllable to prevent a misapprehension which might arise from the report of something I said in the Standing Committee on this Bill. It was reported, and quite correctly, that I said that, although there was an objection to the words "without means of support," and in point of fact those words were unnecessary, it was quite reasonable that if a man was likely to become a public charge he should not be allowed to land. I had previously said, in discussing the Bill, that I did not alter my opinion that there ought to be no such restriction whatever. I was merely discussing whether the words as they were in the Bill best carried out the intentions of the promoters. As it stands it looks as if I had withdrawn my general opposition to the principle of the Bill. That is not so.
  THE LORD PRIVY SEAL (Viscount CROSS): I think my noble Friend made it quite clear that he was opposed to the Bill, and that, the principle of the Measure having been approved of by the House on the Second Reading, he did his best to amend it in the Standing Committee.
  *LORD STANMORE: Before the Motion is put might I ask the noble Earl in charge of the Bill, or some noble or learned Lord who has studied the Bill, whether he will be kind enough to remove a doubt which exists in my mind in regard to this Bill? In these foreign countries where similar legislation exists, there is a provision of one sort or another for the detention of these persons until

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  such time as they can be sent home. There is no corresponding provision in this Bill, and I should like to suggest that, though you give by this Bill power to the inspector to prevent a man landing, you give no power, as far as I can see, to the captain of the ship to detain the man on board against his will. Moreover, it is not in every case that the ship will be going back to the port from which she came. She may be going on a voyage to some other and more distant place. In that case the alien must come on shore, and, though you have given power to the inspector to prevent the man landing, I do not see that you give any power to expel him again when he has once landed. I may be wrong, but I thought the doubt was worth stating.
  THE EARL OF HARDWICKE: The provisions of this Bill give the Board of Trade power to make regulations for carrying them out. It had always been my intention that aliens should not be allowed to leave the ship until they had been examined, and therefore the suggstion which the noble Lord makes, that it would be necessary to have a provision to expel them after they had landed, would not arise.
  *LORD STANMORE: Supposing the ship is not going back to the place from which it came?
  THE EARL OF HARDWICKE: That will be at the captain's own risk. He will have to take the aliens with him on his journey until he gets to the place from which they came. I believe that will act as a great deterrent.
  *LORD STANMORE: I would remind the noble Earl that the regulations of the Board of Trade must be regulations under this Act, and that those regulations cannot confer fresh powers which are not given under this Act.
  Report agreed to, and Bill ordered for Third Reading.

  SEA FISHERIES BILL. [H.L.]
  Amendments reported (according to order), and Bill to be read a third time to-morrow.
  METROPOLIS MANAGEMENT ACTS AMENDMENT (BY-LAWS) BILL. [H.L.]
  Amendments reported (according to order); a further Amendment made; and Bill to be read a third time to-morrow.

  TRAMWAYS ORDER IN COUNCIL (IRELAND) (LONDONDERRY AND LOUGH SWILLY RAILWAY) BILL.
  Order for Second Reading read.
  THE EARL OF DENBIGH: My Lords, I do not think there will be any opposition in your Lordships' House to this Bill, and therefore it is hardly necessary for me to say very much about it, in moving that it be read a second time, except to inform your Lordships that it is for the purpose of making a railway from Letterkenny, in the north of Ireland, more or less along the north coast of Donegal, and ending at Burtonport, on the extreme west of Donegal county. It goes through some of the worst parts of the congested districts of Ireland. The area benefited will be 269,000 acres, with a population of 42,700. There was a certain amount of opposition raised to this Bill at the local inquiry, opposition which mainly came from the Donegal Railway Company, who serve the southern part of the county. But, my Lords, I think that the opposition fell to pieces entirely before the various inquiries which were conducted in Ireland. The local inquiry which was held by the Board of Works resulted in a report which was entirely satisfactory to the scheme. The Grand Jury of Donegal have given it their adhesion, and it was unanimously passed by the Privy Council. I therefore move the Second Reading of the Bill.
  Bill read a second time, and committed to a Committee of the whole House.

  EX-OFFICIO JUSTICES OF THE PEACE (SCOTLAND) BILL.
  House in Committee (according to order); Bill reported without Amendment; and re-committed to the Standing Committee.
RETURNS, REPORTS, ETC.
  DUBLIN SOUTHERN DISTRICT TRAMWAYS BILL.
  Report from the Committee of Selection, That the Lord Barnard be proposed to the House as a member of the Select Committee on the said Bills in the place of the Lord Castlemaine; read, and agreed to.
  DUBLIN PORT AND DOCKS BILL.
  Report from the Committee of Selection, That the Lord Barnard be proposed to the House as a member of the Select Committee on the said Bills in the place of the Lord Castlemaine; read, and agreed to.
  WIGAN CORPORATION BILL.
  Report from the Committee of Selection, That the Lord Barnard be proposed to the House as a member of the Select Committee on the said Bills in the place of the Lord Castlemaine; read, and agreed to.
  SOUTHAMPTON GAS BILL.
  Report from the Committee of Selection, That the Lord Barnard be proposed to the House as a member of the Select Committee on the said Bills in the place of the Lord Castlemaine; read, and agreed to.
  USK VALLEY RAILWAY BILL.
  Report from the Committee of Selection, That the Lord Barnard be proposed to the House as a member of the Select Committee on the said Bills in the place of the Lord Castlemaine; read, and agreed to.
CHELSEA ELECTRICITY SUPPLY BILL. [H.L.]
  METROPOLITAN ELECTRIC SUPPLY BILL. [H.L.]
    CENTRAL ELECTRIC SUPPLY BILL. [H.L.] AND GREAT CENTRAL RAILWAY BILL.
    Report from the Committee of Selection, That the following Lords be proposed to the House to form the Select Committee for the consideration of the said Bills—namely, E. Northbrook (chairman), L. Churchill, L. Aberdare, L. Monk Bretton, L. Fairlie (E. Glasgow); agreed to; and the said Lords appointed accordingly. The Committee to meet on Monday next, at half past Twelve o'clock; and all petitions referred to the-Committee, with leave to the petitioners praying to be heard by counsel against the Bills to be heard as desired, as also counsel for the Bills.
    INDIA (RAILWAYS).
    Administration Report on the Railways in India, for 1897–98, by A. Brereton, Esq., Director of Railway Traffic and Statistics; Presented [by command], and ordered to lie on the Table.
    LUNACY.
    Fifty-second Report of the Commissioners in Lunacy, to the Lord Chancellor; Laid before the House (pursuant to Act), and ordered to lie on the Table.
    PUBLIC RECORDS (HOME OFFICE).
    Fourth schedule of Documents not considered of sufficient public value to justify their preservation in the Public Record Office; Laid before the House (pursuant to Act), and ordered to lie on the Table.
    WOODS, FORESTS, AND LAND REVENUES.
    Seventy-sixth. Report, dated 28th June, 1898; Laid before the House (pursuant to Act), and ordered to lie on the Table.

    FINANCE.
    Finance accounts of the United Kingdom, for the year ended 31st March, 1898; Laid before the House (pursuant to Act), and ordered to lie on the Table.
    House adjourned at 5.25.