HL Deb 20 June 1898 vol 59 cc749-52
LORD MONKSWELL

This is a very small Bill, and entirely explains itself. It is to enable the London County Council to make by-laws for the following purpose:— Requiring persons about to construct, reconstruct, or alter drains in connection with buildings, to deposit with the sanitary authority of the district such plans, sections, and particulars as may be necessary for the purpose of ascertaining whether such construction, reconstruction, or alteration is in accordance with the statutory provisions relative thereto, and with any by-laws made under the said section. It is perfectly clear that such a power is eminently desirable, inasmuch as prevention is better than cure. This is a Bill which will enable every corporation and sanitary authority to say that such and such a construction or drain is wrong rather than to say afterwards it must be altered. I understand that the Government agree with this view, but the difficulty appears to be this: that the Government has hardly made up its mind as to what Department should be entrusted with the sanctioning of these by-laws. I will give an instance. When this Bill was put under my charge, I was given to understand that the present authority co sanction the by-laws was the Home Office, but that the Home Office had expressed the opinion that it was not the Home Office, but the Local Government Board that ought to have the power of sanctioning such by-laws; whereupon I approached the Local Government Board upon the matter, and, after some correspondence, I was assured that the Local Government Board had nothing whatever to do with it, and was referred to the Home Office. Upon that I wrote to the Permanent Secretary to the Home Office, and he wrote me a letter expressing the utmost surprise that I had placed the matter before the Home Office at all, because he said that the Home Office had agreed with the Local Government Board that they, for the future, would have nothing whatever to do with the sanctioning of these by-laws. Under these circumstances, it is not for me to express an opinion as to which is the proper authority to sanction these by-laws; but if it is a desirable Bill, surely it ought not to be defeated because the Departments concerned cannot agree as to which Department is to do the work. I think it would have been impudence on the part of the London County Council to make any suggestion in this matter to either Department. All I am anxious to do is to get the Bill passed into law, and I myself, as representing the London County Council, have not the least objection as to whether the by-laws are sanctioned by the Home Office or by the Local Government Board, or by both.

THE MARQUESS OF SALISBURY

In the chaotic state of things, which is new to me, perhaps I may be permitted to express an opinion. I am very doubtful as to which Department is to move in this clause. Like a good many other people—I should say like most people—I have had my little difficulties with drains, and it appears to me, as I suppose it appears to everybody else who has had experience in those matters, that the object is to get the evil repaired with the very shortest possible delay, as any considerable delay is not only a matter of great inconvenience, but also a matter of very serious injury to health. Now, without in the least denying to the London County Council all the qualities which its admirers attribute to it, I imagine that it shares with all other Departments the defects of not being able to conduct its work with any great rapidity. In this case I understand that before you can mend your drains—before you can stop the source of typhus which is infecting your dwelling—you must obtain the leave of the London County Council in the first place, and of either the Home Office or the Local Government Board in the second place; and unless public departments, both municipal, political, and Imperial, alter their nature very rapidly, I fear that that means an interminable delay. I do not say that that is a reason for resisting the second reading of the Bill, but I think that some provision will be necessary for enabling urgency to be declared and for requiring the opinion of the County Council and of the Home Office to be given in a reasonable time.

THE EARL OF KIMBERLEY

It seems to mo that there is a difficulty arising in this Bill, something of the nature to which the noble Marquess has drawn attention. Where there is to be a great reconstruction of drains upon a large plan, I think it would be very often an advantage, and that no great inconvenience would arise from the delay necessitated by this Bill in submitting the plans to the proper authorities. But it struck me, in reading this Bill, that it applies, not only to large works, but that, in point of fact, the deposit of plans would be required with regard to the smallest construction of drains. I do not think that can hardly have been intended by my honourable Friend. If the smallest alteration to a drain involves a correspondence with the county council upon the subject, I think it is pretty obvious that practically such a system could not be worked. I do not myself see exactly what alterations ought to be made in the Bill, but without going entirely to the length that the noble Marquess has gone to in objecting altogether to such an arrangement as this, I do think that some care will be necessary to see that the Bill is not made applicable to such very small matters as might, in point of fact, produce both nuisance and delay.

LORD MONKSWELL

We only desire to make by-laws so that persons shall deposit with the sanitary authority of the district their plans; I do not think, therefore, that there will be much delay.

THH MARQUESS OF SALISBURY

I do not imagine that a sanitary authority is any better than the London County Council—I should rather say it was worse.

Question put— That the Bill be read a second time.

Agreed to.

Bill read the second time.