Lords Sitting of 10 June 1898

Preamble
THE LORD CHANCELLOR took his seat on the Woolsack at a Quarter past Four o'clock.
CHINA.
LORD CONNEMARA: My Lords, I beg to give notice that on Friday neat I propose to ask the noble Marquess at the head of the Government certain questions with respect to China. I will put down the form of the Question on Monday.
PRIVATE BILL BUSINESS.

  NEWCASTLE-UPON-TYNE CORPORATION BILL. [H.L.]
  (Petition for additional Provision.)
  Examiner's Certificate of non-compliance with the Standing Orders referred to the Standing Orders Committee on Thursday next.

  TOTTENHAM AND EDMONTON GAS BILL.
  Committee to meet on Tuesday next.
  BURY CORPOEATION BILL. [H.L.]
  Reported from the Select Committee with Amendments.
  CUSTOMS AND OTHER OFFICES (BARRY DOCK) BILL.
  Reported without Amendment, and committed to a Committee of the whole House on Monday next, and Standing Orders Nos. XXXIX. and XLV. to be considered in order to their being dispensed with.
  CUSTOMS OFFICES (SOUTHAMPTON) BILL.
  Reported without Amendment, and committed to a Committee of the whole House on Monday next, and Standing Orders Nos. XXXIX. and XLV. to be considered in order to their being dispensed with.
  BROMPTON, CHATHAM, GILLINGHAM, AND ROCHESTER WATER BILL.
  Reported without Amendment.
  EDMONTON URBAN DISTRICT COUNCIL BILL.
  Reported with Amendments.
  KNOTT END RAILWAY BILL.
  Reported with Amendments.
  BARRY RAILWAY BILL.
  Read the second time, and committed. The Committee to be proposed by the Committee of Selection.
  CARDIFF CORPORATION BILL.
  Read the second time, and committed.
  SOUTHEND WATER BILL.
  Read the second time, and committed.
  GREAT WESTERN RAILWAY (GENERAL POWERS) BILL.
  Read the second time, and committed. The Committee to be proposed by the Committee of Selection.
  FELIXSTOWE AND WALTON WATER BILL. [H.L.]
  Read the third time, and passed, and sent to the Commons.
  NEWHAVEN AND SEAFORD WATER BILL. [H.L.]
  Read the third time, and passed, and sent to the Commons.
  FILEY WATER AND GAS BILL. [H.L.]
  Read the third time; Amendments made; Bill passed, and sent to the Commons.
  NEWTOWN WATER BILL. [H.L.]
  Read the third time; passed, and sent to the Commons.
  BUENOS AYRES NORTHERN RAILWAY BILL. [H.L.]
  Read the third time; passed, and sent to the Commons.
  KINGSTOWN AND KINGSBRIDGE JUNCTION RAILWAY (ABANDONMENT) BILL. [H.L.]
  Read the third time; passed, and sent to the Commons.
  EXETER, TEIGN VALLEY, AND CHAGFORD RAILWAY BILL. [H.L.]
  Read the third time; passed, and sent to the Commons.
  NORTH EASTERN RAILWAY BILL. [H.L.]
  Read the third time; passed, and sent to the Commons.
  YORK UNITED GAS BILL.
  Read the third time, and passed.
  ST. ANNE'S-ON-THE-SEA GAS BILL.
  Read the third time, with the Amendments, and passed, and returned to the Commons.

  CORPORATION OF LONDON (FOREIGN CATTLE MARKET, DEPTFORD) BILL.
  THE CHAIRMAN OF COMMITTEES The Earl of MORLEY)formally moved the Third Reading of this Bill.
  Question put.
  Motion agreed to.
  THE EARL OF MORLEY: I move that this Bill do pass.
  Amendment proposed—
  "Add to preamble of Bill before the last paragraph—
  "And whereas it is desirable that cattle, sheep, and pigs bred in Ireland or other parts of the United Kingdom, and fed or fattened in the counties of Middlesex, Essex, Suffolk, Norfolk, Hertfordshire, Buckinghamshire, Oxfordshire, Northamptonshire, Kent, Surrey, Sussex, Berkshire, or other counties in the vicinity of the Metropolis, and the meats from such animals, after slaughter in the counties aforesaid, should enjoy the same market rights, privileges, and facilities of access to the purchasers of London and its suburbs that the corporation have provided for foreign animals.
  "And whereas the Millwall Dock Company and the Agricultural Organising Agency, Limited, have provided at their own cost and risk the premises, machinery, plant, and commercial arrangements necessary and requisite for enabling the live stock owners of Ireland and other parts of the United Kingdom to enter into commercial relationship with the farmers of all the counties in proximity to the Metropolis that will enable them to receive and fatten home-bred animals and thereby to pro vide an increased supply of prime meats from healthy animals for the inhabitants of London and its suburbs.

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  "And whereas the companies aforesaid have agreed to provide British and Irish farmers with similar accommodation for home-bred animals that the Corporation provide for foreign animals, and to charge only the same rates and tolls for home-bred animals that are charged for foreign animals:
  "And whereas it is for the interest of British and Irish farmers that the aforesaid Millwall Dock Company and Agricultural Organising Agency, Limited, should be at liberty to establish a market at the Millwall Dock for the reception and transfer of Irish live stock to British farmers, and to be provided with stalls in the Central Meat Market to enable the meat from the animals so disposed of to be brought to the market and sold by the aforesaid Agricultural Organising Agency, Limited, to the retail butchers or meat dealers of the Metropolis."
  "Add the following clauses—
  "51. The Corporation shall consent to the Millwall Dock Company and the Agricultural Organising Agency, Limited, providing accommodation for the landing and lairage of live stock from Ireland and other parts of the United Kingdom, and for the establishment of a market by which the aforesaid animals may be sold by private treaty or public auction, or otherwise disposed of, as may be deemed expedient by the owners or their agents, and to the provision of accommodation for the slaughter of the animals and the effective treatment of their meat, offal, and byproducts.
  "52. The Corporation shall provide the Agricultural Organising Agency, Limited, with a sufficient number of stalls in the principal avenues of the Central Meat Market to enable the meat to be sold from animals slaughtered in the counties of Middlesex, Essex, Suffolk, Norfolk, Hertfordshire, Cambridgeshire, Buckinghamshire, Berkshire, Oxfordshire, Hampshire, Northamptonshire, Warwickshire, Kent, Surrey, Sussex, and other districts in the vicinity of the Metropolis, and that the Corporation shall be paid for such stalls, and the meats sent to them for sale, the same rent and tolls as are payable by the tenants of the Corporation under its by-laws, and the Agricultural Organising Agency, Limited, shall not be subjected to any restrictions in the conduct of its business other than those imposed upon the remainder of the tenants of the said market under the by-laws of the Corporation." —(Lord Stanley of Alderley.)
  LORD STANLEY OF ALDERLEY: My Lords, whatever might be thought or said of the Amendments in my name, they refer to a serious Irish grievance, and one that is also a grievance and cause of loss to 12 counties round London. The authorship of the Amendments belongs to Mr. Tallerman. I have known, him for years by correspondence, and have
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  full confidence in his knowledge and ability in respect to the distribution of produce and in respect to the interests of farmers. The history of the Irish trade in cattle with London is singular, and it is most extraordinary that the latter part of it, taken from the statistics of the Board of Agriculture has not attracted more attention, especially from the head of that Board. It appears that in ancient times the cattle trade from Ireland to London, and other parts of England, was very extensive, and employed much shipping. In 1665 and 1668, and again in 1680, in the reign of Charles II., Acts of Parliament were passed prohibiting the importation of cattle from Ireland and "other foreign parts." The last Act says that the previous Act of 1665 had been found beneficial, and that "it is now revived and continued for ever." The promoters of the Amendments say that it was passed for political reasons. There was neither any political nor religious reasons. It was purely and simply for the sake of protection of British cattle. Notwithstanding the Act of 1665, in 1666, after the fire of London, the Irish sent 30,000 beeves as a free gift to relieve the distress of the inhabitants of London. Before the Act of 1665 the average value of Irish cattle was 50s. each, and in the three years 1660, 1661, and 1662 the imports of cattle averaged 61,000 animals per annum. An address to Charles II. by the Lord Lieutenant of Ireland and his Council, dated August 15th, 1665, stated that—
  "The turning of all their cattle upon their hands would necessarily make them lazy, since food would be so cheap as no man needed to labour for it, and so His Majesty would lose the virtue and industry of a whole kingdom."
  This was verified, for the value of beeves in Ireland was reduced from 50s. to 10s. each. This prohibition was maintained for 91 years, which brings us down to 1771. After that, the long wars would check the importation of cattle to any great extent, on account of the cumber some nature of the cargo. The dates of Acts prohibiting importation of Irish cattle, which have been quoted in the documents circulated from "Carte's Life of Ormond," are not correct; those I have mentioned are taken from the

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  Statute Book, and they exonerate Charles II.'s Ministers from the accusation of ingratitude by prohibiting Irish cattle after the free gift of 30,000 beeves in 1666, since the prohibition took place the year before. On the other hand, it reduces the value of the gift from £75,000 to £15,000. But it is not allowable to look gift oxen any more than gift horses in the mouth, especially when the recipient of the gift has caused the depreciation. The modern and most recent figures of the Irish cattle trade show results as astonishing as those of 1660, inasmuch as those of 1894, 1895, 1896, and 1897 give cattle 826,954, 791,607, 631,560, and 740,012 respectively—a total number of 3,046,133, or a value of £30,461,330; and, including sheep and pigs, a value for four years of £41,640,496. These cattle, however, were imported into other parts of England, and during the same four years only 21 head of cattle, of a value of £210, entered the Thames, besides two sheep and four pigs; whilst during that time large quantities of cattle were imported from America, the greater part of which might have been supplied by Ireland and distributed throughout the counties round London to be fattened, to the great benefit of the farmers, especially in the impoverished and depopulated county of Essex. The figures of cattle imports in 1897 were, from the United States 416,299, Argentina 73,352, Canada 126,495. How is it that the Board of Agriculture has been blind to these figures which are its own, and has not sought to obtain at least equal facilities for Irish cattle while this Bill was passing through the other House? I forbear to say anything of the means by which the importers from the other hemisphere have obtained a footing in the London markets, because, in deference to the opinions of the Parliamentary agent of the City Corporation and of the Earl of Mayo, I do not intend to move the Amendments on the Notice Paper, preferring to leave it either to the Corporation to secure equal rights and treatment to their follow-countrymen, or to Her Majesty's Government to rectify the grievances now complained of.
  THE EARL OF MORLEY: My Lords, I do not think it is necessary for me to discuss with my noble Friend the interesting history he has given us of the Irish cattle trade. Nor even do I think it is necessary to enter into the merits of the clauses he has moved. I am quite certain the House will not for a moment entertain the Amendment when I inform your Lordships of the principle of procedure which the acceptance of it would violate. This Bill has passed through all its stages in both Houses of Parliament, and now, at the last moment, when it is being read a third time, an important Amendment is introduced which is absolutely foreign to the Bill. This is a Bill introduced by the Corporation of London for the purpose of enabling them to enlarge the foreign cattle market at Deptford, and the Amendment of my noble Friend proposes to give certain private companies the right of accommodation there. My Lords, such an Amendment would not come within the notices of the Bill as it was deposited in Parliament. It would be most unfair to the promoters of the Bill to introduce such an Amendment at this stage, and it would, moreover, be contrary to the procedure of Parliament to do so.
  THE EARL OF MAYO: My Lords, as the noble Lord who introduced this Amendment mentioned my name, I feel bound to say something with regard to it. I quite agree with my noble Friend the Chairman of Committees that it would be impossible to introduce such an Amendment at this stage, but I am glad that the noble Lord has drawn attention to the fact that there is at present no accommodation for the lairage of live stock from Ireland and other parts of the United Kingdom. No market can be established within seven miles round London without the consent of the Corporation, and the object of the Amendment is to get over that. I hope the noble Lord will withdraw the Amendment, because I do not think the Corporation will view with any hostility the bringing in a Bill to establish a market dealing with live stock from Ireland and other parts of the United Kingdom.
  THE LORD CHANCELLOR (the Earl of HALSBURY): I understood the noble Lord to say that he did not move his Amendment.
  THE EARL OF MAYO: The only way to deal with this matter would be to bring in a Bill in another Session.
  EARL FORTESCUE: My Lords, I think my noble Friend has exercised a wise discretion in not pressing his Amendment. At the same time, I think that great good may hereafter result from attention being called to the figures given by the noble Lord, showing the contrast between the large tirade in cattle some years ago and now. It cannot be said that the length of the voyage would be prohibitory, seeing that in Deptford we find cattle from the United States, from Canada, and, further still, from Argentina. I remember years ago expressing in this House my conviction that it was wasteful and inhuman to bring fat cattle over from those places alive, instead of in the shape of meat, because fat cattle particularly suffer from the bruises and the terror to which they are exposed in the course of their voyage. If, in these days of facilities for cold storage, they were imported in the shape of meat, the quality would be better and the quantity larger, and the difficulty of keeping the meat a few weeks or even months would be thus easily disposed of. We heard previously, I remember, complaints of the hardship inflicted on farmers by the exclusion, as a protection against contagion, of store cattle which used to be imported from Canada. I cannot help hoping that a certain amount of lean stock may hereafter be imported from Ireland into the port of London, and then be distributed, to recover the effects of their voyage, over the eastern counties of England, and slaughtered when they arrive at a proper state of fatness. If this were done it would confer great benefit upon the agriculturists who breed the cattle in Ireland, as well as upon those who fattened the cattle in England. I rejoice that my noble Friend has called attention to this subject, but I think the reasons urged against his pressing the Amendment are absolutely conclusive.
  THE LORD CHANCELLOR: I understand that the noble Lord does not move his Amendment.
  LORD STANLEY OF ALDERLEY: That is so, my Lord.
  Question put.
  Motion agreed to.

  ILKESTON CORPORATION BILL.
  Read the third time, with the Amendments, and passed, and returned to the Commons.
  FOREIGN BONDHOLDERS' CORPORATION BILL.
  Brought from the Commons; read the first time; and referred to the Examiners.
  LONDON BUILDING ACT (1894) AMENDMENT BILL.
  Brought from the Commons; read the first time; and referred to the Examiners.
  LONDON, TILBURY, AND SOUTHEND RAILWAY BILL.
  Brought from the Commons; read the first time; and referred to the Examiners.
SELECT COMMITTEE

  GREAT NORTHERN RAILWAY BILL.
  STAINES RESERVOIRS JOINT COMMITTEE BILL.
  LONDON COUNTY COUNCIL (ACTON SEWAGE) BILL.
  EDUCATION DEPARTMENT PROVISIONAL ORDER CONFIRMATION (LONDON) BILL. [H.L.]
  NEWCASTLE AND GATESHEAD WATER BILL. [H.L.]
  FORRES WATER BILL. [H.L.]
  ANDOVERSFORD AND STRATFORD- UPON-AVON RAILWAY BILL.
  BIRMINGHAM, NORTH WARWICKSHIRE, AND STRATFORD-UPON-AVON RAILWAY (EXTENSION OF TIME) BILL.
  WATER ORDERS CONFIRMATION BILL. [H.L.]
  Report from the Committee of Selection, That the following Lords be proposed to the House to form the Select Committee for the consideration of the above Bills—namely: E. Dartmouth, L. Boston, L. Granard (E. Granard), L. Monckton (V. Galway), L. Heneage (chairman). Agreed to; and the said Lords appointed accordingly. The Committee to meet on Monday, the 20th instant, at half-past Eleven o'clock; and all Petitions referred to the Committee, with leave to the petitioners praying to be heard by counsel against the Bills to be heard as desired, as also counsel for the Bills.

PROVISIONAL ORDER BILLS.
  ELECTRIC LIGHTING PROVISIONAL ORDERS (No. 1) BILL.
  To be read the second time on Monday next. (The Earl of Dudley.)
  ELECTRIC LIGHTING PROVISIONAL ORDERS (No. 4) BILL.
  To be read the second time on Monday next. (The Earl of Dudley.)
  ELECTRIC LIGHTING PROVISIONAL ORDERS (No. 7) BILL. [H.L.]
  To be read the second time on Monday next.
  ELECTRIC LIGHTING PROVISIONAL ORDERS (No. 10) BILL. [H.L.]
  To be read the second time on Monday next.
  PIER AND HARBOUR PROVISIONAL ORDERS (No. 2) BILL. [H.L.]
  A Bill to confirm certain Provisional Orders made by the Board of Trade under the General Pier and Harbour Act, 1861, relating to Colwyn Bay, Macduff, Medina River, Portsmouth Camber Quays, and Southwold—Was presented by the Lord James (for the Earl of Dudley): Then it was moved that the Sessional Order of the 8th March, 1898, "That no Provisional Order Confirmation Bill originating in this House shall be read a first time after Tuesday, the 3rd day of May next," be dispensed with in respect of the said Bill, and that the Bill be now read the first time. Agreed to. Bill read the first time accordingly; to be printed; and referred to the Examiners. [No. 93.]
  GAS ORDERS CONFIRMATION (NO. 1) BILL. [H.L.]
  Amendments reported (according to Order), and Bill to be read the third time on Monday next
  LOCAL GOVERNMENT PROVISIONAL ORDERS (No. 3) BILL.
  House in Committee (according to Order): Bill reported without Amendment; Standing Committee negatived; and Bill to be read the third time on Monday next.
  COMMONS REGULATION (WOLSTANTON MARSH) PROVISIONAL ORDER BILL.
  House in Committee (according to Order): Bill reported without Amendment; Standing Committee negatived; and Bill to be read the third time on Monday next.
  ELECTRIC LIGHTING PROVISIONAL ORDERS (No. 8) BILL. [H.L.]
  Read the second time (according to Order).
REPORTS, ETC.

  EDUCATION (SCOTLAND).
  (1) General Report by Her Majesty's Chief Inspector on the Schools in the Northern Division of Scotland, for the year 1897;

  (2) Reports and Papers relating to the Training Colleges of Scotland, for the year 1897.

  TRADE REPORTS, 1898.
  I.—Annual Series: Diplomatic and Consular Reports on Trade and Finance:

  No. 2112. Spain (Malaga);

  No. 2113. United States (Portland).

  No. 2114. Turkey Beirut);

  No. 2115. Peru;

  No. 2116. Africa (Congo);

  No. 2117. Norway.

  II.—Miscellaneous Series: Reports on Subjects of General and Commercial Interest:

  No. 460. Turkey (Vilayet of Broussa);

  No. 461. Germany (Memorandum of German Trade in the first quarters of 1897 and 1898);

  No. 462. Germany (German Imports and Exports of Iron and Ironware and Implements, Machines, in 1896 and 1897).

  Presented (by command), and ordered to lie on the Table.

PUBLIC BUSINESS.

  RELIGIOUS MINISTRATION IN WORKHOUSES.
  LORD NORTON: My Lords, I beg to move for a Return, of which I have given notice, showing the names of the unions in England and Wales for which there are paid chaplains for the inmates of the workhouses; and also of the unions where there are no paid chaplains of the workhouses, and in such cases what religious ministration is provided for the inmates. I move for these Papers at the request of a great number of persons resident in various parts of the United Kingdom, and of several of your Lordships. Lord Mount-Edgcumbe wrote to me from abroad expressing strong interest in this subject at the present time in the West of England. The provision of religious ministration in all kinds of public asylums has been very much at heart of late, and much has been done in this direction; but of all classes of the community the inmates of workhouses have perhaps the greatest claim to that provision, destitute, and desolate, aged, infirm, and sick. I can hardly conceive a man so wanting in sympathy or a sense of public responsibility as to doubt that this helpless class have an imperative claim upon the State for religious ministration. The law is clear upon the subject. The poor law makes it obligatory on boards of guardians throughout the country to provide such ministration, but I am afraid the duty is largely disregarded. The Poor Law Commissioners have issued most elaborate rules upon the subject, and those rules have the authority of law; but when the Return which I am moving for is presented I am afraid the extent to which they are carried out will show a very considerable and dangerous deficiency. What is really wanted, and what is said ought to be provided in workhouses in the way of religious ministration, is that prayers should be read on Sundays. A daily prayer is generally read by the head of the workhouse, but on Sundays it is the law that this duty should be undertaken by a clergyman. The ministration of the Sacrament is still more

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  important in those cases in which it would be impossible for the inmates to receive it elsewhere. I think your Lordships will allow that religious consolation and aid are needed perhaps by no class more than by the helpless inmates of our workhouses. There is also the instruction of children, who, though generally, I am thankful to say, sent out to schools, are still in many cases left in workhouses, and, unless some such provision as I have referred to is made, have none. There are many inmates of workhouses who are incapacitated from attending public worship elsewhere, and who are entirely dependent upon the house provision. Cases where the unions may be unable to maintain a paid chaplain are promised other clerical ministration, and ministers of all denominations have legal access to the workhouses to attend those of their own persuasion. The provision is complete if the law were only carried out, but I am afraid it is not carried out. I have made inquiries as to the reason for this, and I find that neglect has not occurred mostly in poor unions to save the rates, but more in consequence of religious jealousy, which is now, I am glad to say, very much reduced. I believe the Return which I am moving for will show that there are a very considerable number of workhouses which have neither chaplains nor any provision for religious ministration. At all events, the Return will furnish a guide to those who are anxious to assist in workhouses where the arrangements for the purpose are insufficient. I, therefore, my Lords, move for this Return.
  LORD HARRIS: My Lords, I may say, on behalf of the Government, that there is no objection to this Return being made.
  Question put.
  Motion agreed to.

  PORT DURBAN.
  VISCOUNT SIDMOUTH: My Lords, I beg to move for any recent correspondence that may have passed between the Colonial Office or the Admiralty and the representative of the Natal Government in reference to Port Durban. In
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  moving for this Return, I take the opportunity of correcting some of the statements I made on a former occasion, having received fuller information on the subject, and I trust my noble Friend [the Earl of Hopetoun] will not be displeased if I correct some of his statements, which were, to a certain extent, confirmatory of my own. I stated formerly that the bar at the mouth of the harbour was such as to interfere with the entrance of Her Majesty's ships, and with its being used as a coaling port. I think my noble Friend, on behalf of the Admiralty, confirmed my remarks to that extent, stating that the bar was in itself so dangerous as to render the harbour practically useless to the Royal Navy. Since then I have ascertained that this bar has practically disappeared, owing to the great exertions which have been made by the Natal Government to remove the obstruction. Two powerful dredging machines are being used, and the result of the work for the past six months has been to reduce the dangers on the bar to such an extent that vessels of very large tonnage can generally enter with perfect safety. Vessels of the Donald Currie Line, drawing 22 feet of water, pass over the bar with the greatest case at high water, with a depth of water of 24 feet 2 inches, and at low water there is a depth of 19 feet 2 inches, so that vessels of a moderate tonnage can get in at any time. A large vessel of 9,000 tons went in the other day when not at high water, but at between high and low water, with four feet of water under her. My Lords, when you get inside the port of Natal, it is one of the finest harbours in the world, and one which offers considerable advantages to us, as will be seen when we consider what our interests are on that coast, and when we consider that along the whole line of coast from Simon's Bay, which is now used by the Royal Navy at a very inconvenient anchorage, to Delagoa Bay, from which we have been precluded by the action of arbitration, we have no harbour whatever except Port Elizabeth. Since I last troubled your Lordships on the subject I find that a railway has been constructed from Port Durban, which probably many of your Lordships may be aware is a place where there is now a wharfage for very large ships, but which is somewhat inconvenient owing

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  to the distance it is from the mouth of the harbour; and this railway goes right round the head of the harbour to the point where the water is deep, close inside the bar. The Colonial Government propose to lay out large sums for the purpose of constructing wharves there for the more speedy coaling of ships. This railway is in direct communication with the town of Durban and with the coalfields, which are practically inexhaustible in our time. They have been surveyed by experienced mining engineers from Liverpool, who say that the coalfields are 50 miles in breadth, and that the supply of coal is such that it will last for 40 years at the highest rate of consumption. I hope, in view of our increasing interests on that coast, of the fact that we have no harbour whatever on that coast, and of the additional fact that the coal is not only inexhaustible in quantity, but excellent in quality, having been examined, and found to be only about 10 per cent, inferior to the best Welsh coal, that the Government realises the advantages which this harbour offers, and the uses to which it can be put by Her Majesty's ships. The Donald Currie and other lines invariably supply their steamers with coal there, and it is not unreasonable to hope that when the wharves of which I speak are completed the Government may have a wharf set apart for the coaling of Her Majesty's ships. My Lords, I have no doubt whatever, from what I have heard, that the statistics which I am laying before you are perfectly correct, and that the danger at the mouth of the harbour on the bar is practically removed. Her Majesty's ship Doris, the flagship there, is a vessel of between 5,000 and 6,000 tons, and is very much inferior in draught and bulk to many of the merchant vessels which use the harbour without any hesitation at all. I can hardly believe that the Admiralty will shut their eyes to these undoubted facts, which are not mere hearsay, which are not based upon false ground, but which are vouched for by eminent engineers who have examined the spot, and whose reports I have in my hand. If the Admiralty turn their attention to this subject and carefully consider it, I feel sure that they will decide to avail themselves of
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  this magnificent harbour, which has long been spoken of as capable of being made one of the finest harbours in the world. I am not holding a brief for the Colonial Government in any way. I did not even know, when I last spoke on the subject, that it was under consideration. I brought the matter forward on my own initiative, knowing the capabilities of the harbour, and feeling that what we wanted was a coaling station for our ships on that coast. I venture to think that the subject is deserving of the attention of the Government, and I beg to move the Motion which stands in my name.
  VISCOUNT CLIFDEN: My Lords, I was very glad to hear what the noble Viscount who has just spoken said about the capabilities of Port Durban, and I hope the noble Viscount is quite sure of his facts. The information I received was not quite so satisfactory, and, even if my noble Friend is correct, that depth of water will not do for our big ironclads. What the noble Viscount is thinking about, and what we must all think of, is a coaling station on that coast for our ironclads in case of war; but I want to ask the noble Earl who represents the Admiralty whether there is any case of a bar of shifting sand being satisfactorily dealt with, so as to make passage practicable at all times. I have heard that an easterly gale would, at once set up the bar at Durban, and how long it would take to do away with the effect of that easterly gale I do not know. What we want on that coast is a man-o'-war harbour; but, even putting it at the best, I do not think Port Durban will do for our heavy ironclads.
  THE EARL OF HOPETOUN: My Lords, with regard to the question of my noble Friend on the Cross Benches [Viscount Clifden], I am not aware of any case in which a shifting bar has been dealt with in a satisfactory way, but if my noble Friend cares to repeat his question and give me notice, I shall be happy to make further inquiries, and to answer him at a future date. I am glad my noble Friend behind me [Viscount Sidmouth] has brought

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  up this question again, because it would seem that persons interested in Natal have taken the reply which I made on the 16th of May on this subject as unappreciative of the efforts made by the Colonial Government to improve the entrance into Durban Harbour, and as understating the results. I am moat anxious to remove any such impression if it exists, for the Admiralty have watched with the greatest interest the gradual improvement of the passage over the bar to a port whose position on a coast so notoriously devoid of harbours makes it especially valuable. During the last two or three years the possession of new machinery has added much to the power of dealing with the bar, and the period necessary to re-deepen, after temporary heaving up of sand, has been shortened. Since my noble Friend asked his first Question on this subject some fresh reports have been received from the harbour authorities, which show a greater average depth on the bar for the year 1897 than for any previous year; and even more recent information, coming through the Agent General for the Colony, points to the fact that the average will be better for this year than for last year. But it must be borne in mind that when heavy seas set in these depths have always been diminished by a very considerable amount. In attempting to fix an average draught which can be considered as capable of passing the bar, a considerable reduction must be made from the maximum which has passed over it. It is difficult to fix an exact figure, but there is every reason to hope that each year it may be put higher. I trust this reply will be satisfactory to my noble Friend, and that he will not press his Motion, as it is not considered desirable by Her Majesty's Government to lay the correspondence referred to, which is of an inter-Departmental character, upon the Table of your Lordships' House.
  VISCOUNT SIDMOUTH: May I ask the noble Earl the date of the last communication with the Colonial Office?
  THE EARL OF HOPETOUN: I cannot give you the dates just now. There have been communications between the Colonial Office and the Admiralty since I made my reply to the last Question before the Adjournment.
  VISCOUNT SIDMOUTH: In answer to the noble Viscount [Viscount Clifden], I should like to say that there is no large ship, of the class to which he alludes, on that station. All the vessels on the Cape station are of moderate bulk. The Doris is the flagship, and is, presumably, the largest ship out there. She is between 5,000 and 6,000 tons only, and the Donald Currie vessels, which go in there constantly, draw much more water, and are of larger tonnage.
  VISCOUNT CLIFDEN: Will the noble Viscount say that there will never be a hot war in that part of the world, and that our large ironclads will not go there?
  Motion, by leave, withdrawn.

PUBLIC BUSINESS.

  RESERVE FORCES BILL.
  Brought from the Commons; afterwards read the first time; to be printed; and to be read the second time on Tuesday next. (The Marquess of Lansdowne.) [No. 94.]
  House adjourned at 5.10.