CLAUSE 52.

HL Deb 28 July 1898 vol 63 cc148-69

Amendment proposed— Page 36, at end of line 27, add 'Provided, however, that the occupier shall not be entitled to make any deduction from his rent in respect of buildings, except so far as same are liable to rent.'"—(Earl of Arran.)

THE EARL OF ARRAN

I really think that I should not move this Amendment again, because everything is met with such courtesy that I really feel quite shy in doing so, but I am bound to say that the explanation given does not seem to me to be perfectly satisfactory. The system at present in operation is that the poor rate is divided in most cases between the occupier and the owner, each paying half, and no deduction was made between that portion of the poor rate that applies to the land, and that portion which applies to the buildings on it. Therefore, although in many counties the poor rate was applied to the buildings, and was flowed and given by the Sub-Commis- sioners to the tenant, yet, all the same, the landlord paid the rates—that is to say, he was paying poor rates on property not his. Under this Bill, that portion of the poor rate which applies to the buildings does not count, and therefore the landlord will be paying half the poor rate upon buildings which belong to the tenant. It seems to me to be perfectly clear that we have been paying for many years poor rates which we should not have paid, that ought to have been differentiated long ago, and I think that now is the time that the change ought to be made, when other changes are being made. If it is found impossible to alter the law on the subject, then it seems to me that the old system should be continued, and that the whole poor rates, or rather the landlord's portion of them, should be made to refer both to land and buildings in connection, with the agricultural grant. There will be enormous trouble in attempting to differentiate between what affects the buildings and the land, and it seems to me to be much more simple to leave the law as it now stands.

LORD FARNHAM

I rise to say that in my opinion, unless this addition is made to this clause, a very grievous wrong will be inflicted on the landlords. I have a copy of the pink Schedule, in which no less than £1,100 is the value placed upon the buildings which have been admitted to be the property of the tenant. The tenant has the full enjoyment of that, and surely it is but justice that the tenant should pay the poor rate, and I hope your Lordships will see your way to adopt the Amendment proposed by my noble Friend, that the tenant shall pay the poor rate upon the property which is actually in his possession.

* THE LORD CHANCELLOR OF IRELAND

My noble Friend Lord Arran and my noble Friend who has just spoken have presented the case in a way that enables your Lordships to understand it, but it appears to me that it is an effort to make, in a Local Government Bill, a change which will entirely vary the incidence of the poor law in relation to deductions, and to take the opportunity afforded by this Bill to go entirely outside the scope and object of the Bill by moving a variation in the incidence of the rate of deduction, which, would be entirely outside the scope of the Bill. We are, in this Bill, only dealing with local government, and we have nothing to do with any variation of the poor law about deductions, or in what respect such deductions are to be made. My noble Friend said they did not want to make any change, but they do, and the change they want to make is this: at present the tenant has a right to deduct half the poor rate in respect of his entire holding, no matter how composed, and what my noble Friend seeks to accomplish is this: that in future the deduction is to be confined absolutely to the land, and that the tenant is to have no right of deduction in respect of the buildings. Now, that may be a question of right or wrong, and it may be a question to be argued and decided, but it is a big question of rights between landlord and tenant—rights in reference to the poor law, and rights of deduction. But we are dealing in this Act with local government, and we are dealing with a readjustment of rent, in consequence of a payment to the landlord out of the agricultural grant, and how can we take that opportunity to vary the incidence of the change, and regulate the rate of deduction with respect to the poor rate, to the benefit of the landlord and to the disadvantage to the tenant? To me it seems to be a matter of seeking to make a grave and serious change in the law which, whenever it is proposed to be made, must be considered upon its own merits.

* LORD VENTRY

It does seem to me that the case hardly stands exactly as the noble and learned Lord has put it. It appears to me that a certain change is being made by the Bill in the incidence of the poor rate, and it also makes certain abatements in the rents paid by the tenant as a matter of adjustment. Well, now, it does seem to me that we are not travelling very much further in modifying that adjustment, so far as not to give the tenant any deduction on the rent he has to pay to the extent of the rate on those buildings which have been declared by the Land Commission to be his property. I may also, add that it seems to me this Amendment need not be extended to all tenancies, and Deed only apply to tenancies where the rents have been fixed by the Land Commission, and where a particular rent has been put, or has not been put, upon the buildings. In other cases, where the rents have been fixed out of court, by judicial agreement, or where there has been no judicial agreement, in those cases no such interference is necessary, because it is a matter of give and take between landlord and tenant, and it may be assumed that these matters have adjusted themselves, but in this particular case you have the fact that these buildings have, or have not, rent put upon them. Again, there is already a precedent under the poor law, the case of leases where a small rent—a small ground rent—is paid, and in that case half the poor rate is not allowed. The poor rate is calculated on the ground rent, and up to the half it is allowed. But in 99 cases out of every 100 the allowance would be very much less than half.

THE EARL OF ARRAN

At the same time there would be no difficulty in making it all come under the agricultural grant.

* THE MARQUESS OF LANSDOWNE

If the Amendment were to be limited, as suggested, your Lordships would be still very ill-advised to accept it. I would ask the House to keep very distinctly before itself what the object of this Bill is. The object of this Bill is to relieve the landlords of that part of the poor rate which has hitherto fallen upon them in respect of agricultural land. In the case of agricultural land, the State finds in the new agricultural grant the equivalent of the rate which the tenant ceases to pay, and his rent is consequently reduced by a proportionate amount. But when you come to non-agricultural land, or to buildings, the State does not find any money at all, and the tenant, as the noble Lord knows, under the Bill, is liable for the whole of the poor rate. It is, then, clearly necessary to do something in order to replace the tenant in that position, or in the same relative position as that in which he stood before, and with that object the Bill proposes that the tenant's rent should be reduced by the amount of the poor rate which, under the new arrangement, is thrown upon him. That, I venture to suggest, is a perfectly fair and intelligible arrangement. The noble Lord, Lord Arran, proposes that we should take advantage of this opportunity in order to radically alter the law with regard to the incidence of the poor rate. What he proposes is that, in the case, not of all buildings, but of a particular class of buildings, an entirely new liability, which does not now fall upon the tenant, should be thrown upon him for the first time. The noble Lord says, in effect, to the tenant, "These buildings are your property; you must pay the rates, and you must make no deduction from your rent." Now, that is an absolute innovation and an absolute novelty. Our object is to leave the parties where they are now in respect to any rates payable on non-agricultural holdings. With that object we seek to increase the tenant's rent by the amount of rate which the State provides, and we decrease his rent by the amount which is transferred from the landlord to the tenant. That seems to me to be a fair arrangement, and I think that the noble and learned Lord who has charge of the Bill ought not to take advantage of this opportunity in order to throw a brand-new liability on the tenant for a portion of the poor rate which he has not paid before.

* THE EARL OF MAYO

The section provides— That sum may be raised by means of the poor rate, but as a separate item thereof, and any right to deduct any part of the said rate from rent shall continue as respects that item. It seems to me that that non-agricultural land goes with the buildings, and he has no right to deduct the rate.

THE EARL OF ARRAN

I withdraw my Amendment.

Amendment, by leave, withdrawn.

Amendment proposed— Page 36, line 41, leave out sub-section (8)."—(Lord Inchiquin.)

LORD INCHIQUIN

The noble and learned Lord said that he wished to save law expenses, and I am sure there is nobody who is more anxious to save law expenses than I am. I think, however, that leaving these matters in the hands of the commissioner of valuation will be exceedingly unwise, because very important questions have to be decided in reference to these matters. It is far more desirable that the parties should be left to their usual remedy before the usual courts than that the commissioner of valuation should be allowed to settle these matters. It is a question that does affect lawyers, and men who understand these matters in law much more than I do, but from what I have been told the matter is not one of very great importance. I understand that the noble and learned Lord said the other day that he would consider this matter, and I would ask him now whether he will accept it or not?

* THE LORD CHANCELLOR OF IRELAND

I think it would be deplorable to accept this Amendment. This subsection provides that if any dispute arises as to the amount to be deducted or paid by occupiers under existing tenancies it shall be settled by the commissioner of valuation. Well, there may be many disputes, some of them limited to a couple of shillings, and why these unfortunate people should be left to these magnificent tribunals, for which I have an infinite respect, to decide these petty points, which might from time to time arise, I cannot understand. It might be a millennium for lawyers, but it would be a catastrophe to those who have to pay them. I think, therefore, that the provision in the Bill is as wise and as good as could be suggested. There may be some wide difference of opinion as to the amount to be deducted, but it is wise, I think, to set up some tribunal to decide these small matters, and not leave these poor people to the arbitrament of the law.

LORD INCHIQUIN

I beg leave to withdraw my Amendment.

Amendment, by leave, withdrawn.

Amendment proposed— Page 37, line 14, after 'council,' insert 'including the town clerk of a county borough.'"—(Lord Ashbourne.)

Question put.

Amendment agreed to.

Motion made, and Question put— That the clause, as amended, stand part of the Bill.

Agreed to.

Amendment proposed— Page 37, line 42, leave out 'the fair rent for a holding,' and insert 'a fair rent in a rural district.'"—(Lord Ashbourne.)

Amendment agreed to.

Amendment proposed— Page 38, line 5, leave out from 'poor rate' to the end of the clause, and insert 'and where the Land Commission after the appointed day fix a fair rent for a holding, they shall record in the schedule specified in section one of the Land Law (Ireland) Act, 1896, the standard amount as defined in the preceding section, both for poor rate and county cess, and the benefit in respect of the holding deemed to have been received by the landlord and tenant respectively out of the agricultural grant.'"—(Lord Ashbourne.)

* THE LORD CHANCELLOR OF IRELAND

This Amendment is one which I accepted from the Earl of Arran, and it merely puts the clause into proper form, or drafting language.

Question put.

Amendment agreed to.

Motion made, and Question put— That the clause, as amended, stand part of the Bill.

Agreed to.

Amendment proposed— Page 39, line 26, leave out 'light.'"—(Lord Ashbourne.)

Question put.

Amendment agreed to.

Motion made, and Question put— That the clause, as amended, stand part of the Bill.

Agreed to.

Amendment proposed— Page 41, line 37, leave out 'two counties,' and insert 'more counties than one.'"—(Lord Ashbourne.)

Question put.

Amendment agreed to.

Motion made, and Question put— That the clause, as amended, stand part of the Bill.

Agreed to.

Amendment proposed— Page 43, line 26, after 'loan,' insert 'raised.'"—(Lord Ashbourne.)

Question put.

Amendment agreed to.

Amendment proposed— Page 43, lines 27 and 28, leave out 'relating to the relief of the poor,' and insert 'above in this section mentioned.'"—(Lord Ashbourne.)

Question put.

Amendment agreed to.

Motion made, and Question put— That the clause, as amended, stand part of the Bill.

Agreed to.

Amendment proposed— Page 44, line 36, after 'borough,' insert 'or urban district council.'"—(Viscount de Vesci.)

Amendment, by leave, withdrawn.

Amendment proposed— Page 45, line 6, leave out 'took place,' and insert 'came into force.'"—(Lord Ashbourne.)

Question put.

Amendment agreed to.

Amendment proposed— Page 45, line 15, after 'are a,' insert 'within the meaning of the Dublin Port and Docks Board and Bridges Act, 1876.'"—(Lord Ashbourne.)

Question put.

Amendment agreed to.

Amendment proposed— Page 45, line 17, leave out 'appeal,' and insert 'revision of the apportionment."'—(Lord Ashbourne.)

Question put.

Amendment agreed to.

Motion made, and Question put— That the clause, as amended, stand part of the Bill.

Agreed to.

Amendment proposed— Page 46, line 28, leave out 'either by a separate rate or.'"—(Lord Ashbourne.)

Question put.

Amendment agreed to.

Amendment proposed— Page 46, line 29, after 'charge,' insert 'but a council, in lieu of raising the amount required to meet the same by means of the poor rate, may, if they think fit, raise it by levying a separate rate.'"—(Lord Ashbourne.)

Question put.

Amendment agreed to.

Motion made, and Question put— That the clause, as amended, stand part of the Bill.

Agreed to.

Amendment proposed— Page 48, after clause 66, insert the following clause— The duties payable by pawnbrokers under section sixty-six of the Dublin Police Magistrates Act, 1808, and the Act therein mentioned, in any part of the police district of Dublin metropolis, shall be payable to and be collected by the council of the borough or county district where the place of business of the pawnbroker, in respect of which the duties are paid, is situate, and the amount so received by such council shall be applied in aid of their expenses in the execution of this Act, and the receiver mentioned in the said section shall cease to have any concern with the said duties."—(Lord Ashbourne.)

* THE LORD CHANCELLOR OF IRELAND

This new clause has been put down in redemption of the pledge which I gave the other night, and it is consequential upon what follows. My noble Friend used the reference which was contained in one of the schedules as to the payment of pawnbrokers' licences, and he was challenged by my noble Friend, who said that it was not in a proper place, that it was not intelligible as to its operation, and very difficult to apply. But his object is said to be met, and I think is met, by what I have proposed here, for it enables the duties that are payable by pawnbrokers practically to be distributed in aid of the expenses, and the benefit to be given to the various councils in the counties where the parties reside who pay them.

Question put— That this clause be read a second time.

Agreed to.

Motion made, and Question put— That the clause be added to the Bill.

Agreed to.

Amendment proposed— Page 52, line 1, leave out the first 'the,' and insert 'those.'"—(Lord Ashbourne.)

Question put.

Amendment agreed to.

Amendment proposed— Page 52, line 3, after 'Acts,' insert '1871 to 1894.'"—(Lord Ashbourne.)

Question put.

Amendment agreed to.

Motion made, and Question put— That the clause, as amended, stand part of the Bill.

Agreed to.

Amendment proposed— Page 55, line 14, leave out 'general.'"—(Lord Ashbourne.)

Question put.

Amendment agreed to.

Motion made, and Question put— That the clause, as amended, stand part of the Bill.

Agreed to.

Amendment proposed— Page 58, line 26, after 'surveyor,' insert 'or surveyors.'"—(Lord Ashbourne.)

Question put.

Amendment agreed to.

Amendment proposed— Page 59, line 39, leave out from 'council' to the end of line 42."—(Lord Ashbourne.)

Question put.

Amendment agreed to.

Motion made, and Question put— That the clause, as amended, stand part of the Bill.

Agreed to.

Amendment proposed— Page 61, after clause 85, insert as a new clause— An officer holding a pensionable office, whether the superannuation allowance is payable out of the poor rate, or any town rate, or other local rate, shall not be disqualified for receiving such an allowance by reason only of his having acted, whether before or after the passing of this Act, as an officer of a school attendance committee under the Irish Education Act, 1892."—(Lord Ashbourne.)

THE EARL OF CAMPERDOWN

But there are limits to everything. The words "an officer holding a pensionable office" mean that it entitles the holder to superannuation, but it does not mean that the office carries with it a pension.

* THE LORD CHANCELLOR OF IRELAND

I do not quite comprehend the point which has been raised.

THE EARL OF CAMPERDOWN

It is the officer, and not the office, who is entitled to the pension. It does not read.

* THE LORD CHANCELLOR OF IRELAND

I think it reads myself.

THE EARL OF CAMPERDOWN

There is no accounting for taste.

* THE LORD CHANCELLOR OF IRELAND

I do not say it is classical, but it reads.

VISCOUNT CLIFDEN

It is very bad English.

* THE LORD CHANCELLOR OF IRELAND

We are accustomed to that.

Question put— That this clause be read a second time.

Agreed to.

Motion made, and Question put— That the clause be added to the Bill.

Agreed to.

Amendment proposed— Page 62, line 7, leave out from 'against' to 'any,' in line 8."—(Lord Ashbourne.)

Question put.

Amendment agreed to.

Motion made, and Question put— That the clause, as amended, stand part of the Bill.

Agreed to.

Amendment proposed— Page 63, line 12, leave out 'tramway.'"—(Lord Ashbourne.)

Question put.

Amendment agreed to.

Motion made, and Question put— That the clause, as amended, stand part of the Bill.

Agreed to.

Amendment proposed— Page 63, line 21, leave out clause 91, and insert as a new clause."—(Lord Ashbourne.)

Question put.

Amendment agreed to.

Amendment proposed— Section thirty-eight of the Tramways (Ireland) Act, 1860, shall have effect as if the words 'of not less than two-thirds' were omitted therefrom."—(Lord Ashbourne.)

Question put— That the clause be read a second time.

Agreed to.

Motion made, and Question put— That the clause be added to the Bill.

Agreed to.

Amendment proposed— Page 64, line 1, after 'in,' insert 'tile council of,' and leave out 'council.'"—(Lord Ashbourne.)

Question put.

Amendment agreed to.

Amendment proposed— Page 65, lines 12 and 13, leave out 'ordinary day of retirement of the mayor,' and insert 'twenty-third day of February."—(Lord Ashbourne.)

Question put.

Amendment agreed to.

Amendment proposed— Page 65, line 14, leave out 'section,' and insert 'sections three and.'"—(Lord Ashbourne.)

Question put.

Amendment agreed to.

Amendment proposed— Page 65, line 15, after '1876,' insert 'and the day next before the day of the said quarterly meeting shall be substituted for the thirtieth day of November, in section five of the said Act.'"—(Lord Ashbourne.)

Question put.

Amendment agreed to.

Amendment proposed— Page 65, line 16, after 'or,' insert 'other.'"—(Lord Ashbourne.)

Question put.

Amendment agreed to.

Motion made, and Question put— That the clause, as amended, stand part of the Bill.

Agreed to.

Amendment proposed— Page 66, line 6, at end, insert as a new sub-section— Every such chairman who is, by virtue of this Act, a justice of the peace shall, notwithstanding anything in the other provisions of this Act, be subject to the same restrictions, disqualifications, and power of removal as any other justice of the peace."—(Lord Ashbourne.)

Question put.

Amendment agreed to.

Motion made, and Question put— That the clause, as amended, stand part of the Bill.

Agreed to.

Amendment proposed— Page 66, line 11, after 'secretary,' insert 'or clerk.'"—(Lord Ashbourne.)

Question put.

Amendment agreed to.

Amendment proposed— Page 66, line 29, after 'made,' insert 'in like manner.'"—(Lord Ashbourne.)

Question put.

Amendment agreed to.

Motion made, and Question put— That the clause, as amended, stand part of the Bill.

Agreed to.

Amendment proposed— Page 67, after line 11, insert as a new sub-section— In an electoral division comprised in a parliamentary borough in which the freeholders vote for the parliamentary county, and not for the parliamentary borough, the names of the freeholders, that is to say, the persons entitled in respect of a freehold, leasehold, or copyhold qualification within the parliamentary borough, shall be entered in a separate list, and that list shall form part of the local government supplement in the said division; but nothing in this enactment shall alter the right of such freeholders to vote for the parliamentary county, or confer on them a right to vote for the parliamentary borough."—(The Marquess of Abercorn.)

THE MARQUESS OF ABERCORN

The object of my Amendment is to prevent freeholders and leaseholders from being in boroughs disqualified from voting in the Parliamentary borough in which they lire. This new sub-section asks that they may be placed in a separate list, and that that list shall form part of the local government supplement in that division. It will not touch the Parliamentary franchise in any sense, but it merely gives them the power of using the privilege of voting which they have hitherto enjoyed.

* THE LORD CHANCELLOR OF IRELAND

I think some such sub-section is necessary to meet the position of things in Londonderry and Belfast, and if there was not an Amendment of this kind inserted I am not sure that the persons referred to would have any right at all to vote.

Question put.

Amendment agreed to.

Amendment proposed— Page 74, line 8, leave out 'town and township commissioners,' and insert 'commissioners of a town.'"—(Lord Ashbourne.)

Question put.

Amendment agreed to.

Motion made, and Question put— That the clause, as amended, stand part of the Bill.

Agreed to.

Amendment proposed— Page 76, line 30, at end of line, insert as a separate paragraph— The expression 'high constable or collector of a barony,' includes a collector for a district of a barony appointed under the County Cess (Ireland) Act, 1848."—(Lord Ashbourne.)

Question put.

Amendment agreed to.

Amendment proposed— Page 76, line 36, leave out 'for,' and insert 'in respect of.'"—(Lord Ashbourne.)

Question put.

Amendment agreed to.

Amendment proposed— Page 77, line 22, after 'district,' insert 'division.'"—(Lord Ashbourne.)

Question put.

Amendment agreed to.

Amendment proposed— Page 78, line 15, at end of line, insert as a separate paragraph— The expression 'Medical Charities Acts,' means the Acts so defined by the Dispensary Houses (Ireland) Act, 1879, and includes the last-mentioned Act."—(Lord Ashbourne.)

Question put.

Amendment agreed to.

Motion made, and Question put— That the clause, as amended, stand part of the Bill.

Agreed to.

Amendment proposed— Page 80, line 18, leave out 'one councillor,' and insert 'two councillors.'"—(Lord Ashbourne.)

Question put.

Amendment agreed to.

Motion made, and Question put— That the clause, as amended, stand part of the Bill.

Agreed to.

Amendment proposed— Page 80, line 33, leave out 'and township.'"—(Lord Ashbourne.)

Question put.

Amendment agreed to.

Amendment proposed— Page 80, line 36, after 'district,' insert 'and of commissioners of each town.'"—(Lord Ashbourne.)

Question put.

Amendment agreed to.

Motion made, and Question put— That the clause, as amended, stand part of the Bill.

Agreed to.

Amendment proposed— Page 81, line 2, leave out 'borough,' and insert 'of a city or town.'"—(Lord Ashbourne.)

Question put.

Amendment agreed to.

Motion made, and Question put— That the clause, as amended, stand part of the Bill.

Agreed to.

Amendment proposed— Page 82, line 5, after 'Act,' insert 'and the rules made thereunder.'"—(Lord Ashbourne.)

Question put.

Amendment agreed to.

Motion made, and Question put— That the clause, as amended, stand part of the Bill.

Agreed to.

Amendment proposed— Page 83, line 2, after 'then,' insert 'or any time thereafter during the period of three years immediately following the said last five days of March.'"—(Viscount de Vesci.)

* VISCOUNT DE VESCI

I propose to insert three years instead of five, and my object is to extend the time for county secretaries to any time during three years. I ought to mention that I propose to insert in my Amendment, after the word "thereafter," the words "with the consent of the county council." The object of this is to enable them to come to an agreement between the county council and the grand jury secretaries. The object of my Amendment is for the sake of due efficiency and economy in the management of the affairs of the county councils, and to secure a continuity of the business carried on by the grand juries now. As the matter stands now the county councils will be elected in March, 1899, and come into operation in July, 1899, and the county secretaries are required to come to a decision by March, 1900. As a matter of fact, there will not be a full year's sitting, and I think I can say that the accounts will not be presented for audit by the present county secretaries. We are bound to assume that there may be a great change in the governing bodies of these councils, and I should be very sorry indeed for the chairmen or the finance committee of the councils which had to settle that business without the skilled assistance of the present secretaries to the grand juries. I think it is reasonable to suppose that almost every secretary of the grand juries in Ireland will probably take advantage of the proposals in the Bill, and the confusion ensuing can hardly be imagined. In order to enable these new county boards to have the advantage, the advice, and the assistance of these expert officers, I move the addition of these words.

* THE LORD CHANCELLOR OF IRELAND

It is a perfectly wise proposal to make a provision that the new bodies should have the assistance and knowledge and experience of the secretaries to the grand juries. That everyone is agreed upon. But it is not, I think, desirable that the secretaries to the grand juries should be allowed too long a time to remain in a state of indecision as to whether they will take on with the new authorities or not. The Bill says that they shall have until the end of March, 1900. That is practically a year after the Bill comes into operation. The first election is to be in March next year, and to give them until March, 1900, practically gives them 12 months to consider whether they will go and take those terms, and take on their new employment.

* VISCOUNT DE VESCI

But I do not think that the new councils will sit until late in the year.

* THE LORD CHANCELLOR OF IRELAND

I do not think that it would be reasonable, or that it would work well, to leave these officers in a state of indefinite uncertainty as to what they are doing to decide for such a long period as two or three years. Now, if my noble Friend would, instead of March, 1900, take September, 1900, that would leave a year and a half, and that would be another thing. I am told that the officers in question are not in favour of that period, and that they want either a long time, or else that the Bill stand as it is. Now, we do not see our way to make such a change as to leave them in this uncertain position for three years, and it is better for them to make up their minds within a reasonable time whether they will be off with the old love and on with the new. If your Lordships do not think there would be any objection to extending it six months, that would be more acceptable.

* VISCOUNT DE VESCI

The new words I have suggested would enable them to come to an arrangement with the county council as to whether they can stay on. Under the circumstances, I will withdraw my Amendment.

Amendment, by leave, withdrawn.

Amendment proposed— Page 83, after line 22, add as a new subsection— Where any existing secretary to a grand jury resigns or is removed from his office under the provisions of this Act, without the concurrence of the Local Government Board, and is entitled to any retiring allowance under this Act, he shall, if he so elects, in lieu of such allowance, be entitled to receive a gratuity from the county council. Such gratuity shall be according to the scale in Part I. of the Seventh Schedule to this Act, save that it may be granted to an amount not exceeding seven years' net emoluments."—(Viscount de Vesci.)

* VISCOUNT DE VESCI

I have been asked to move this because it is thought it would be more advantageous that they should have that option, and it would be economy on the part of the county council, because they would have to pay them on the lower scale.

* THE LORD CHANCELLOR OF IRELAND

I may say that it is not the view of those who have applied their mind to the question. I have no feeling either way, nor have I any special knowledge, but I am told that the position of these officers is this: that under the existing laws they have no right to pensions, and they are given them under this clause; and, more than that, there is a provision, I think, at the end of clause 115 in the last sub-section that saves any superannuation given from being made available to their creditors. Everything is done in a considerate way to safeguard their position, but I do not think it would be reasonable to go further, and permit such a course of giving gratuities as suggested in this Amendment.

* VISCOUNT DE VESCI

Then I will withdraw it.

Amendment, by leave, withdrawn.

Amendment proposed— Page 83, line 27, after 'remuneration, insert 'allowance or compensation.'"—(Lord Ashbourne.)

THE MARQUESS OF ABERCORN

Who are the medical officers excepted by this proposal?

* THE LORD CHANCELLOR OF IRELAND

Your Lordships may remember that my noble Friend, including the noble Duke, took a very great interest in the Irish medical poor law officers, and he felt very nervous and apprehensive at words being introduced which indicated plainly that it was necessary for anyone, to get the benefit of the section, to be an officer who gave up the whole of his time. I am told that a legal opinion has been given by a very high official, and I quite approve of your Lordships' anxiety at seeing those words in the clause. It is to meet that case that this Amendment has been accepted.

Question put.

Amendment agreed to.

Amendment proposed— Page 84, line 12, after 'officer,' insert 'who can be employed under the scheme.""—(Lord Ashbourne.)

Question put.

Amendment agreed to.

Amendment proposed— Page 85, line 5, after 'of,' insert 'or for the purposes of.'"—(Lord Ashbourne.)

Question put.

Amendment agreed to.

Motion made, and Question put— That the clause, as amended, stand part of the Bill.

Agreed to.

Amendment proposed— Page 85, lines 30 and 31, leave out 'their existing officers as to,' and insert 'such existing officers respecting.'"—(Lord Ashbourne.)

Question put.

Amendment agreed to.

Motion made, and Question put— That the clause, as amended, stand part of the Bill.

Agreed to.

Amendment proposed— Page 87, line 28, after 'and,' insert 'except as respects a medical officer to whom the Medical Officers' Superannuation Act (Ireland), 1869, applies.'"—(Lord Ashbourne.)

Question put.

Amendment agreed to.

Motion made, and Question put— That the clause, as amended, stand part of the Bill.

Agreed to.

Amendment proposed— Page 88, line 12, leave out from 'under,' to 'in,' in line 14, and insert 'a scheme made in pursuance of this part of this Act.'"—(Lord Ashbourne.)

Question put.

Amendment agreed to.

Motion made, and Question put— That the clause, as amended, stand part of the Bill.

Agreed to.