CLAUSE 23. (Hansard, 28 July 1898)

* THE EARL OF MAYO
I am sorry to bring this clause up again, but there is one point which requires elucidation, and I should like to ask my noble and learned Friend, with regard to the latter part of the section, whether any person who is in default with his rates can be qualified to be a councillor by 12 months' residence subsequent to such default, because if, by residence, he qualifies himself for election, whether he has paid his rates or not, then that embraces the wide class of evicted tenants, and people living in Land League huts.

§ * THE LORD CHANCELLOR OF IRELAND
There are two classes of people that are covered by my honourable Friend's Amendment. The qualifying sub-section is sub-section 4, and that says— A person shall not be qualified to be elected or to be a councillor of the council of a county district unless he is a local govern- 132 ment elector for the district, or has, during the whole of the twelve months preceding the election, resided, and continues to reside, in the district. That is quite fair. It was thought wise in England, and we have followed the English precedent. The clause qualifies two sets of persons—the local government elector and the person who has resided 12 months in the district. That simply means that you are not to inquire into any qualification but the qualification of residence.

* THE EARL OF MAYO
If he is a defaulter in his rates.

§ * THE LORD CHANCELLOR OF IRELAND
That is a circumstance that affects his own mind, but it does not deal with the fact that he has lived there. It is a question for the electors. Will they elect a person who is a local government elector for the district, or will they elect one who is qualified by a residence of 12 months? I am informed that the reason for admitting the latter class was to enable ladies to be elected, and also to enable eldest sons to be elected. Of course, you can in England, as in Ireland, or in any place, suggest that you might elect foolish and improper representatives, but you must trust that the constituencies will occasionally be wise and that they will elect prudent and wise representatives.

LORD INCHIQUIN
It seems to me that the occupant of a Land League hut might be elected, and I think that, from our experience of Ireland, there is a great possibility of this class of men being thrust upon us. A clause of this kind might work very differently in Ireland to what it does in England, and if we have anything like the experience in the future that we have had in the pest, I think it is not at all improbable that the case I have mentioned would come before the authorities. Is it desirable in legislation to allow such a case to happen? I do not say it would happen, but I think there is every possibility of its happening. It is very important to consider these matters. My noble and learned Friend seems to treat all the objections of the Irish landlords as of no importance, and seems inclined to refuse all their attempts at amending the Bill. In fact, 133 he says that he will have the Bill, the whole Bill, and nothing but the Bill.

§ * THE LORD CHANCELLOR OF IRELAND
Oh, no; I have never said any such thing.

LORD INCHIQUIN
You put us on one side in all these things. I entirely agree that it is a very important matter indeed to allow eldest sons to be elected.

§ * THE LORD CHANCELLOR OF IRELAND
And ladies?

LORD INCHIQUIN
Yes. So far as I am concerned, I should be very glad indeed to have my son, who happens to be my agent, on the council. But if you allow them to be on the councils you must also allow other things to happen, and the cases I have mentioned about Land League huts and labourers' cottages are cases of the greatest importance. Is it desirable to allow a man to be elected who is the occupant of a labourer's cottage? Is it desirable to give such a man an opportunity of occupying, taking a permanent part in matters of such importance as those which come before a board of guardians? Is that desirable or not? If it is not desirable, then I think the noble and learned Lord should say he does not consider it desirable, and should strike it out of the Bill.

§ THE SECRETARY OF STATE FOR WAR (The Marquess of LANSDOWNE)
We are perfectly ready to discuss this Amendment in a reasonable spirit, and I put it to the noble Earl who has moved it that this clause as it stands, as a whole, is a very fair and just clause. It may be very true that under the clause the occupant of a labourer's cottage built under the Labourers Act—which is, I suppose, what is meant by the noble Lord who last spoke—or even the occupant of a Land League hut may be qualified for election. I must say that I do not see at first sight why the occupant of a cottage built under the Labourers Act should be considered as disqualified if the electors choose to return him. As to the occupant of a Land League hut, I confess I should be very sorry to see representatives of that class elected, but I think we ought to set against that risk, which is not a very immediate one, the 134 distinct advantage of allowing a son, living in his father's house, or a lady, to be elected to these councils. I suggest to the House that the advantage of this outweighs the disadvantages of the other risk, which fills so large a place in the imagination of the noble Lord.