CLAUSE 15. (Hansard, 28 July 1898)

* THE EARL OF MAYO
Clause 15 provides for the sum which the county council may raise to maintain its county infirmary. In the county of Cork there are two infirmaries—the South Cork Infirmary and the North Cork Infirmary—and both receive county patients. But the county council has no power to make any contribution to the funds of the North Cork Infirmary; it is unable to apportion the sum that it has power to raise between the two institutions which do its work. The Amendment which I have to move is this— Page 14, line 22, after the word 'upon,' insert 'and in the case of the county of Cork the county council may contribute a portion of the sum mentioned in sub-section 1 of this section towards the maintenance of the North Cork Infirmary in the city of Cork upon such terms and conditions and subject to such restrictions as may be decided upon by the council of the county of Cork and of the county borough of Cork.'

§ * THE LORD CHANCELLOR OF IRELAND
As I understand the proposal of my noble Friend, it is this: it does not propose to enable the county of Cork to raise any further sum whatever than they are entitled to do at the present moment, and it only proposes to give them a power to apportion the sum which they are at present empowered to raise between the two infirmaries, which at present practically do the work of the county. Without this Amendment I gather that they will be bound only to contribute to one and will be unable to contribute to the other, even although it may be doing a substantial amount of the county work. I can see no objection to that Amendment.

§ * LORD ARDILAUN
I am anxious to know what the noble and learned Lord thinks of this sub-section.

§ * THE LORD CHANCELLOR OF IRELAND
My noble Friend has said nothing in explanation of this, but the acceptance of this new sub-section would make an immense change in the whole constitution of affairs. This would enable any urban district to contribute to any infirmary at all. That is a tremendously wide order, without any restriction whatever.

§ * LORD ARDILAUN
Situated in the county, and with the consent of the Local Government Board.

§ * THE LORD CHANCELLOR OF IRELAND
I am aware of that, but at present there is no power in the urban districts to make these contributions to neighbouring hospitals. This is intended to meet a case in the neighbourhood of Dublin. According to our present law it is competent for any urban district council to select their area for their charitable contributions, which is entirely different from enabling them to deal with the sum that is raised that is already ear-marked and registered. This Amendment would enable them to have an addition to their powers of taxation, and I do not see how we can sanction that. It would be a substantial addition to the taxing powers. There is power already given on the face of the Act, enabling these contributions to be given by them. My noble Friend's Amendment will enable them to select according to their discretion a new area with the approval of the Local Government Board, for their philanthropic and charitable contributions, which must be raised by taxation, and I do not see how that can be done.

§ * LORD ARDILAUN
In sub-section 10 the noble and learned Lord will find that— any county councils may agree for the contribution by one council to the county infirmary or fever hospital of the other council, on such conditions as to the admission to the infirmary or hospital of patients from the county of the contributing council, and the representation of that council on the committee for managing the infirmary or hospital, as may be agreed upon. But, while county councils are allowed to do this, the urban council is excepted and cannot do it, and what the result would be is that the urban sanitary authority might be obliged to build hospitals themselves, while in an adjoining county or an adjoining township or adjoining street there are hospitals ready, which in the past the township has made use of and contributed to. The city of Dublin subscribes to hospitals within its own area, and by adopting my suggestion these townships would be saved a large amount of taxation.

§ THE LORD CHANCELLOR
I must remind the noble Lord that we are not in Committee.

§ * LORD ARDILAUN
I have not spoken before. May I explain, with the indulgence of your Lordships, because it is a matter of very considerable importance. The Board of Commissioners will be the urban authority, and we shall find very great difficulty if we are obliged to build hospitals, and the ratepayers will feel it too.

* THB LORD CHANCELLOR OF IRELAND
Equally with the indulgence of your Lordships, I will explain that subsection 10, to which the noble Lord has referred, enables county councils to join together to contribute to the county infirmary or fever hospital. These recommendations have obvious and wise reasons. My noble Friend, by his new clause, would enable the urban district council by itself to select an independent hospital; that would require new taxation, and that is why I cannot accept it.

EARL DUNRAVEN
I move to omit clause 19, and to insert the new clause which I have down on the Paper. It is obvious that we require some definition of what ancient monuments are. For instance, I had a letter from a Friend in Ireland, asking me whether, in the case of grand juries secretaries of 20 years' service should be considered as an ancient monument within the meaning of this Act, and therefore to be maintained at the public expense. I think that the clause I propose to insert will meet all the requirements of the case. I believe it meets with the approval of Her Majesty's Government, and I think it will ensure that an ancient monument of historical or archæological value will be preserved and safeguarded, and at the same time no frivolous interference on the part of those interested in remains of no historical value can take place.

§ * THE LORD CHANCELLOR OF IRELAND
I think it is a wise course suggested by my noble Friend, and I accept his Amendment.