HL Deb 25 July 1898 vol 62 cc1101-3

I have an Amendment to that—

"After Cork,' insert 'Galway.'"


I have intimated to my noble Friend that, of course, I shall not question to-night the Division of a few hours ago on this subject, and not now put the House to the trouble of another Division. I am, however, informed of a matter I should mention. The acceptation by this House of this Amendment may be regarded as the creation of a new rating authority. I do not presume to give any specific opinion as to that, but it is something that will have to be looked into more closely than I have had an opportunity of doing yet.

Amendment proposed— Page 93, line 19, after 'Cork,' insert 'Kilkenny.'"—(The Marquess of Ormonde.)


I rise to move the Amendment which stands in my name, namely, that the city of Kilkenny be inserted after that of Cork. My reason for doing so is the extreme antiquity of the corporation of that borough, although I am aware that the population of some 12,000 inhabitants is not so large as that of other cities named, but if your Lordships will allow me I will give you a few facts and figures to bear out my remark as to the antiquity of the corporation. The first charter was granted as long ago as the year 1190, and subsequent charters were granted by Richard II., Henry III., Henry IV., James I., Charles I., and James II. In the reign of James I. Kilkenny was created a city and the county of the city in 1609. Besides this there were no fewer than 20 Parliaments held there, the principal of which perhaps may be considered to be that held in 1310, before Richard, Earl of Ulster, and that which was held on the morrow of Ash Wednesday in 1367 by Lionel, Duke of Clarence, in both of which many new enactments were made. I merely give your Lordships those facts and figures in order to show that there is some excuse for moving this Amendment.


I am sorry to say a word against my noble Friend. I have no doubt the antiquity of Kilkenny is I absolutely true. A more beautiful town—from a distance—I do not know, than the city of Kilkenny, built on limestone, with the most perfect springs of water, which, however, are unfortunately all adulterated with sewage. I do not mean to suggest that the people do not adulterate the water also with something else afterwards, but of all the municipalities in the United Kingdom it is about the worst. They increase their debt year by year; they do no good to themselves, I aim afraid, or to anybody else. They have this lovely stream, running through it, and they turn it into a common sewer; and, upon my word, I do not see why any stretch, of this schedule should be made for the city of Kilkenny. My advice to the noble Marquess would be, leave it alone.


My Lords, the Amendment moved by my noble Friend, Lord Ormonde, on behalf of the city of Kilkenny, is a very natural Amendment. Everyone knows the close way with which he is bound to that ancient city, and how identified his family have been with its history for many centuries. But, my Lords, even though a Parliament was held there and passed these great Statutes, we cannot divest ourselves—looking at the actualities of the present day—of the fact that whether this population is 12,000—a little more or a little less—it is a good way off the limit of 17,000 that already has obtained a certain sanction from your Lordships. But, my Lords, must not the line be drawn somewhere? I am sorry that it should be drawn so that it will exclude Kilkenny and my noble Friend; but I am afraid I must ask your Lordships to do even that, and I venture to hope it may be that my noble Friend will be satisfied with the protest he has made on behalf of his ancient city and acquiesce in the hard and fast line which the Bill necessitated our drawing.

Amendment, by leave, withdrawn.

Motion made and Question put— That the second schedule, as amended, stand part of the Bill.

Agreed to.