CLAUSES 115 TO 120. (Hansard, 25 July 1898)

*THE EARL OF MAYO
This Amendment has been suggested on behalf of the county surveyors. It also affects other local officers, all of whom under local Acts would be qualified, for superannuation on attaining 60 years of age, and having served 20 years (in the case of these officers) and 10 years (in the case of surveyors). There are 39 county surveyors to the 32 counties of Ireland. By clause 115, page 87, of the Bill as now printed, superannuation is secured to those who would be qualified for it on the "appointed day" only. This would benefit two or three only in this body, while the greater number would not be in a position to satisfy the necessary conditions which are prescribed by the "County Surveyors' Superannuation. Act (Ireland), 1875," which are that the surveyor seeking superannuation must be 60 years of age, or have become mentally or physically incapacitated from work, and in either case he must have served 10 years at least in the county from which he seeks superannuation. With two or three exceptions the ages of the existing surveyors vary from 60 down to 30 years, the average being about 45, and the length of service from 30 to 32 years, the average being about 20 years. It may be noted that as a county surveyor cannot be appointed if under 26 or over 40 years, he must serve from 20 to 34 years before he is entitled to a pension on the ground of old age. Again, many of the men who will probably be elected to the new boards have been contractors under the present county surveyors, who have, in the discharge of their duties, found it necessary to put in force the penal clause of the Grand Juries Act against many of them, while with others it may be in their attempts at jobbery they have been in frequent conflict. To such, an admirable opportunity would be afforded by the Bill as it stands to pay off old scores by refusing a county surveyor his superannuation when he comes to retire hereafter. It would therefore be a manifest injustice to leave the existing officers without that protection which a reasonable expectation of pension has hitherto conferred on them, and that protection, as well as their independence in administering the duties, which will devolve on them under the new boards, which it 1097 should be the vital interest of the ratepayers to see established, can be secured only by making their superannuation when they come to retire, mandatory on the county councils. This would be effected by the Amendment to clause 115, page 87, in line 14, leaving out "if he were to retire on the appointed day" and inserting "when he shall hereafter retire." This Amendment would also secure to other officers, who, under local Acts, are qualified for superannuation on attaining 60, and having put in 20 years' service, the certainty that they will get some superannuation in their old age. All these officers feel strongly that the authority who appointed them, and under whom they served the best years of their life, is now being changed, and to this new body the power should not be left to deprive the officer of any superannuation. Though by the Act of 1875 the granting of superannuation is optional with a grand jury, it has always been looked on as morally "certain on good behaviour," as since the passing of that Act in no case has superannuation been withheld, and in every case the full pension which could be sanctioned was allowed. It was in this belief those who took office after that date did so, many of them giving up good positions in other services, namely, the Public Works Department of India, or the Civil Branch of the Royal Engineers, or Admiralty, for the sake of the pension which was believed to attach to their office. It should be remembered, too, that the county surveyors are nearly all university men, and are appointed by the Lord Lieutenant after a very difficult examination by the Civil Service Commissioners. In this respect they differ from all other local officers, and are not recognised as civil servants only, because their salaries are paid out of local rates and not out of the consolidated fund. The Act of 1875 is not repealed by the Bill, and pensions are left at the discretion of the new boards; but the conditions of the office are radically changed, for it must be admitted that superannuation in the hands of men such as will compose the county council will be a very uncertain issue to a long service, and they feel that a breach of faith would be committed if they are 1098 transferred from the board under which they took service to another authority whose views, social and economic, are likely to be so widely different, without making their superannuation secure as it was in effect under the present grand juries.

*THE LORD CHANCELLOR OF IRELAND
The acute point of this Amendment—the point on which it pivots—is to take out of clause 115 the qualification that is attached to this provision, that on the appointed day persons qualified for a superannuation allowance be qualified for that superannuation by reason of some status, and it is absolutely necessary to take a date in which that status can be ascertained. That is shown in the clause. The clause says if on the appointed day a man is entitled, then, he is qualified for a superannuation allowance; he shall them have certain rights which are fully and fairly recognised. By his Amendment, my noble Friend seeks to get rid of that governing date, and to leave out altogether the words "if he were to retire on the appointed day," and to leave him the rights whenever he shall retire—at any time and under any circumstances.

*THE EARL OF MAYO
Supposing he does not retire on the appointed day—March 1st, 1889; the county council may give him the option or they may not, just as they choose. It seems rather hard on these men, considering that the secretaries of the grand juries and the county auditor are protected.

*THE LORD CHANCELLOR OF IRELAND
His status is measured by the possibility of his retiring at the appointed day. After that his rights may attach whenever he ceases to hold office, but his status on the appointed day cannot be forgotten.

THE DUKE OF ABERCORN
This Amendment is moved in the interests 1099 and on behalf of some of the officers of the Corporation of Belfast, and I venture to, suggest that the qualification for superannuation allowance shall be service only, and that the maximum shall be 20 years. Sixty years of age is the extreme age at which a pension can be given, so that it will also be necessary to remove the age disability. The effect of the clause gives superannuation to officers of 60 years of age with 20 years of service, while any officer who may have had 20 or 30 or 35 years of service, and has not reached the age of 60, cannot receive a superannuation. I think your Lordships will admit that that is rather hard, and if the extreme age of 60 years was done away with and service only was admitted, those difficulties would be overcome. As to the devotion of his whole time to the service, that refers, to the medical officers attached to public places, and these men, who are a high class of men, say if they are not allowed to devote their services to any other practice it will not be worth their while to take up public work. It is well known that medical officers of high ability have very often private practice which adds not only greatly to their income, but also to their knowledge of the profession they follow, and thus it seems rather hard that they should be debarred from following out this private practice, and it is on behalf of these men that I venture to move this Amendment.

*THE LORD CHANCELLOR OF IRELAND
This is an Amendment dealing with the same clause to which I have already referred, and I have to remind your Lordships that I indicated that the governing date in the earlier part of the clause was that on the appointed day the officers that were to get the benefit of the provision were to be then qualified for a superannuation allowance. That must now be taken to be accepted. But this Amendment which is moved proposes to put a perfectly fresh and novel meaning upon the word superannuation, and if that method of interpretation were accepted we could never be quite sure of where we were. The Amendment that is sought to be made to this clause is this: superannuation at present is referred to three things—age, length of 1100 service, and devotion, of time to public service, and the proposal of the Amendment is to obliterate from the calculation for superannuation, two of the three essentials that are needed—that is, to get rid of the age and the length of service. This is not a pensions Bill, it is not brought in with a view to creating rights to pension that are not found already to exist in substance, and therefore I am unable to accept the Amendment for the reasons to which I have referred. Now, the position that has been referred to by my noble Friend with regard to the medical officers rests on a different footing. The medical officers in Ireland—the dispensary practitioners—are entitled to every sympathy and regard, and their position all through has been that of officers who do not devote their whole time to the public service; the salary would not permit it, although, of course, they must be always available to discharge the public service. That is a matter which is engaging the attention of the Government, and we will endeavour to deal with it on the Report stage of the Bill.

§ LORD MACNAGHTEN
I have an Amendment down, or I should say, a new clause, to move, after clause 120, but as the noble and learned Lord has promised to consider it on Report I do not propose to move it.