Lords Sitting of 14 July 1898

Preamble
THE LORD CHANCELLORtook his seat on the Woolsack at a Quarter-past Four of the clock.
PRIVATE BILL BUSINESS.
The LORD CHANCELLOR The LORD CHANCELLOR acquainted the House that the Clerk of the Parliaments had laid upon the Table the Certificates from the Examiners that the further Standing Orders applicable to the following Bills have been complied with—
RENFREW BURGH AND HARBOUR EXTENSION.
  CARDIFF RAILWAY.
  The same were ordered to lie on the Table.
  STANDING ORDERS COMMITTEE.
  Report from, That the Standing Orders not complied with in the case of the

  FISHGUARD AND ROSSLARE RAILWAYS AND HARBOURS BILL
  ought to be dispensed with and the Bill allowed to proceed, provided that clauses 87 to 92 be struck out of the Bill, unless the approval of the Bill by the shareholders of the Great Western and of the Great Southern and Western Railway Companies be proved before the Select Committee to whom the Bill is referred, and that clauses 44 to 56 be struck out of the Bill, unless the approval of the shareholders of the Waterford, Dungarvan and Lismore and of the Fermoy and Lismore Railway Companies be proved before the said Committee, and that proof be given before the said Committee that the Bill has been approved of by the shareholders of the Fishguard and Rosslare Railways and Harbours Company.
  Read and agreed to.

  BOLTON, TURTON AND WEST-HOUGHTON EXTENSION BILL.
  Committee to meet on Tuesday next.
  LISKEARD CORPORATION (WATER) BILL. [H.L.]
  Commons' Amendments considered, and agreed to.
  LEITH BURGH PROVISIONAL ORDER BILL.
  House to be in Committee To-morrow.
  LOCAL GOVERNMENT PROVISIONAL ORDERS (No. 7) BILL.
  House to be in Committee To-morrow.
  LOCAL GOVERNMENT PROVISIONAL ORDERS (No. 9) BILL.
  House to be in Committee To-morrow.
  LOCAL GOVERNMENT PROVISIONAL ORDERS (No. 13) BILL.
  Report of Amendments to be received To-morrow.
  LEYTON URBAN DISTRICT COUNCIL BILL.
  Reported with Amendments.
  LONDON BUILDING ACT (1894) AMENDMENT BILL.
  Reported without Amendment.
  RHYMNEY AND ABER VALLEYS GAS AND WATER BILL.
  Reported from the Select Committee with Amendments.
  SHEFFIELD DISTRICT RAILWAY BILL.
  Report from the Select Committee, That the Committee had not proceeded with the consideration of the Bill, the opposition thereto having been withdrawn; Read, and ordered to lie on the Table; the orders made on the 5th of July and Friday last discharged, and Bill committed.
  LONDON COUNTY COUNCIL (MONEY) BILL.
  Moved, That the order made on the 8th day of March last, "That no Private Bill brought from the House of Commons shall be read a second time after Tuesday, the 28th day of June next," be dispensed with, and that the Bill be read the second time; Agreed to; Bill read the second time accordingly.
  CARDIFF RAILWAY BILL.
  Moved, That the order made on the 8th day of March last, "That no Private Bill brought from the House of Commons shall be read a second time after Tuesday, the 28th day of June next," be dispensed with, and that the Bill be read the second time; Agreed to; Bill read the second time accordingly.
  CARDIFF RAILWAY BILL.
  Committed; the Committee to be proposed by the Committee of Selection.
  LONDON COUNTY COUNCIL (ACTON SEWAGE) BILL.
  Read the third time, with the Amendments, and passed, and returned to the Commons.
  MUMBLES RAILWAY AND PIER BILL.
  Read the third time, with the Amendments; further Amendments made; Bill passed, and returned to the Commons.
  BARRY RAILWAY BILL.
  Read the third time, with the Amendments, and passed, and returned to the Commons.
  LOCAL GOVERNMENT PROVISIONAL ORDERS (No. 12) BILL.
  Returned from the Commons with the Amendment agreed to.
  NORWICH ELECTRIC TRAMWAYS BILL.
  Returned from the Commons with the Amendment agreed to.
  LOCAL GOVERNMENT (IRELAND) PROVISIONAL ORDERS (No. 3) BILL.
  Returned from the Commons with the Amendments agreed to.
  LOCAL GOVERNMENT PROVISIONAL ORDERS (No. 8) BILL.
  Returned from the Commons with the Amendments agreed to.
  CARDIFF CORPORATION BILL.
  Returned from the Commons with the Amendments agreed to.
  DUNDEE CORPORATION TRAMWAYS BILL. [H.L.]
  Returned from the Commons, agreed to, with Amendments; the said Amendments considered, and agreed to.
  MIDDLESEX COUNTY COUNCIL BILL.
  Reported from the Select Committee with Amendments.
  GAS LIGHT AND COKE COMPANY BILL.
  Reported from the Select Committee with Amendments.
  LOCAL GOVERNMENT PROVISIONAL ORDERS (No. 5) BILL.
  Reported from the Select Committee without Amendment, and committed to a Committee of the whole House To-morrow.
  CARDIFF RAILWAY BILL.
  Report from the Committee of Selection, That the Five Lords appointed a Select Committee on the Windsor Dock, Cardiff, Bill, do form the Select Committee for the consideration of the Cardiff Railway Bill; Read, and agreed to; all petitions referred to the Committee, with leave to the petitioners praying to be heard by counsel against the Bill to be heard as desired, as also counsel for the Bill.
  SOUTHAMPTON GAS BILL.
  The Queen's consent signified, and the Bill reported with Amendments.
  MALDON WATER BILL.
  Reported with Amendments.
RETURNS, REPORTS, ETC.
  EDUCATION (SCOTLAND) (WESTERN DIVISION).
  General Report for the year 1897, by T. A. Stewart, Esq., M.A., LL.D., one of Her Majesty's Chief Inspectors.
  FISHERIES (IRELAND).
  Annual Report of the Inspectors of Irish Fisheries for the year 1897.
  WAR OFFICE.
  Report of a Committee appointed by the Secretary of State for War to consider the Decentralisation of War Office business; with Minutes of Evidence.

  LIGHT RAILWAYS ACT, 1896, LAUDER LIGHT RAILWAY ORDER (1898).
  Order made by the Light Railway Commissioners, and modified and confirmed by the Board of Trade, authorising the construction of a light railway between Fountainhall Railway Station and Lauder, in the counties of Midlothian and Berwick.
  Presented (by command), and ordered to lie on the Table.

  LOCAL GOVERNMENT PROVISIONAL ORDERS (GAS) BILL.
  Amendments reported (according to order), and Bill to be read the third time To-morrow.
PUBLIC BILL BUSINESS.
  BOROUGH FUNDS BILL. [H.L.]
  House in Committee as ordered.

  CLAUSE 1.
  Amendment proposed—
  "Page 1, line 5, leave out '1897' and insert '1898.'"—(Lord Harris.)
  LORD HARRIS: This Amendment, my Lords, merely corrects an error.
  EARL BEAUCHAMP: Perhaps it would be convenient, my Lords, if I say at once that I have no objection to any of the Amendments which have been put down by the noble Lord (Lord Harris).
  Question put.
  Amendment agreed to.
  Question put—
  "That clause 1, as amended, stand part of the Bill.
  Motion agreed to.
  Question put—
  "That clause 2 stand part of the Bill."
  Motion agreed to.
  Amendment proposed—
  "After clause 2, insert as a new clause—

  "(1) No expense in relation to the promotion of a Bill in Parliament shall be charged under the Borough Funds Act, 1872, unless the requirements of this section have been complied with.

  "(2) Where the council of a borough or urban district have resolved to promote a Bill in Parliament and the Bill has been deposited, notice shall be advertised in some local newspaper circulating in the borough or district on one day in two successive weeks stating—(a) the title of the Bill; and (b) that the Bill has been deposited, and the date on which it was deposited; and (c) that copies of the Bill may be inspected at a place within the borough or district specified in the notice between the hours of ten in the forenoon and five in the afternoon on every week day for twenty-one days after the date of the first advertisement, and that extracts may be taken free of charge; and (d) that the mayor or chairman may at any time within twenty-one days after the first advertisement of the notice be required by such number of the electors as is in this Act mentioned to take the opinion of the electors by poll as to the expediency of proceeding with the Bill or any part thereof.

  "(3) The first advertisement must be made within seven days from the deposit of the Bill."—(Lord Harris.)

  LORD HARRIS: The object of this clause is obvious—namely, to secure publicity of the intention of promoting a Bill in Parliament in a way that will make it certain that the persons interested will get notice that the Bill is being promoted.
  Question put.
  New clause agreed to.

  CLAUSE 3.
  Amendment proposed—
  "Page 1, leave out from 'the' in line 14 to 'not' in line 15, and insert 'first advertisement of the notice required by this Act.'"—(Lord Harris.)
  LORD HARRIS: My Lords, this Amendment is consequential on your Lordships having accepted the new clause.
  Question put.
  Amendment agreed to.
  Amendment proposed—
  "Line 16, after 'than' insert 'one hundred electors or,' and after 'electors' insert 'whichever may be the less.'"—(Lord Harris.)
  LORD HARRIS: My Lords, under the Bill as it stood it provided that not less than one-twentieth in number of the electors would have to sign a request for a poll. It is obvious that in some of our largest boroughs the number covered by one-twentieth would be very large indeed, and the object of this Amendment is to define some reasonable number which would justify a poll. The Local Government Board have thought that 100 was about a fair average, taking all boroughs, but in order that small boroughs might not be put to serious inconvenience, the Amendment provides that in the smaller boroughs the number shall be one-twentieth—that is to say, in a borough of 2,000 it would be one-twentieth—and in a borough above that number, 100.
  Question put.
  Amendment agreed to.
  Question put—
  "That clause 3, as amended, stand part of the Bill."
  Motion agreed to.

  CLAUSE 4.
  Amendment proposed—
  "Page 2, line 20, leave out 'adequate' and insert 'not less than seven days.'"—(Lord Harris.)
  LORD HARRIS: My Lords, the Bill, as it was introduced, provided that the official who summoned the electors to a poll should give adequate notice. "Adequate" is not defined, and I propose to substitute "not less than seven days."
  Question put.
  Amendment agreed to.
  Amendment proposed—
  "Line 23, after 'effect' insert 'and shall be published by affixing it on or near the principal door of each church or chapel in the borough or district, and at the place where notices relating to the council are usually exhibited.'"—(Lord Harris.)
  LORD HARRIS: This Amendment has been amended again since the noble Earl

  889
  saw it, and now reads as above. The object is to give as much publicity as possible as to the time, place, and mode of voting.
  EARL BEAUCHAMP: I have no objection whatever to the Amendment.
  Question put.
  Amendment agreed to.
  Question put—
  "That clause 4, as amended stand part of the Bill."
  Motion agreed to.
  Question put—
  "That clause 5 stand part of the Bill."
  Motion agreed to.
  Question put—
  "That clause 6 stand part of the Bill."
  Motion agreed to.
  New clause proposed—
  "Insert as a new clause after clause 6—
  "Where the mayor or chairman of the council is unable or unwilling to perform any duty under this Act the council shall appoint some other person to perform the duties for him."—(Lord Harris.)
  LORD HARRIS: The Bill did not make any provision in the event of the mayor or the chairman of the council being unable or unwilling to act. This Amendment makes that provision.
  Question put—
  "That this clause be here inserted."
  Motion agreed to.

  CLAUSE 7.
  Amendment proposed—
  "Line 9, after 'shall' insert 'when taxed by a taxing officer of one of the Houses of Parliament or allowed under the Borough Funds Act, 1872.'"—(Lord Harris.)
  LORD HARRIS: These words are always inserted in Bills of this character.
  Question put.
  Amendment agreed to.
  Question put—
  "That clause 7, as amended, stand part of the Bill."
  Motion agreed to.
  Question put—
  "That clause 8 stand part of the Bill."
  Motion agreed to.

  CLAUSE 9.
  Amendment proposed—
  "Leave out clause 9."—(Lord Harris.)
  LORD HARRIS: My Lords, I beg to move that this clause be omitted. It provides that—
  "Where in any local Act any restrictions are imposed in regard to the promotion of a Bill in Parliament by a council, or any special provision is made for the payment of the costs, charges, and expenses intended to be provided for by the Borough Funds Act, 1872, or this Act, the council may, at their option, either proceed under the provisions of their local Act or under the provisions of the said Act and this Act, and nothing in this Act shall be construed to take away or diminish any rights or powers now possessed or enjoyed by any council under any local or general Act."
  This clause gives the option of proceeding under any Act of a local character, and there are so many of these that the Local Government Board feel that it would be wise at present to leave the clause out altogether.
  EARL BEAUCHAMP: My Lords, this is the only Amendment to which I have any objection. Take the case of Birmingham. Birmingham has special privileges, under the local Act, of taking the opinion of the inhabitants in a simple way in the town hall by ballot. If this clause is omitted that will be done away with.
  LORD HARRIS: I have an alternative to propose, and that is that this Act might be read as one with the Act of 1872, which contains the provision that—
  "Nothing in this Act shall alter or affect any provisions contained in any other Act,"
  and so on.
  EARL BEAUCHAMP: I would prefer the alternative.
  LORD HARRIS: I will not press my Amendment.
  Question put—
  "That clause 9 stand part of the Bill."
  Motion agreed to.
  Question put—
  "That clause 10 stand part of the Bill."
  Motion agreed to.

  CLAUSE 11.
  Amendments proposed—
  "Page 5, leave out lines 1 and 2 and insert 'references.'"
  "Line 4, leave out 'reference' and insert 'references.'"—(Lord Harris.)
  Question put.
  Amendments agreed to.
  Question put—
  "That clause 11, as amended, stand part of the Bill."
  Motion agreed to, and Bill re-committed to the Standing Committee.

  COLONIAL MARRIAGES (DECEASED WIFE'S SISTER) BILL.
  House in Committee as ordered.

  CLAUSE 1.
  Amendment proposed—
  "Line 7, after 'marriage' leave out 'between a man and his deceased wife's sister.'"—(Lord Strathcona and Mount Royal.)
  Question put.
  Amendment agreed to.
  Amendment proposed—
  "Line 9, after 'provision' insert 'between a man and his deceased wife's sister, both being domiciled therein.'"—(Lord Strathcona and Mount Royal.)
  THE LORD CHANCELLOR (The Earl of HALSBURY): My Lords, I am not going to put the House to the trouble of dividing on this question. I only say, by way
  892
  of protest, that I do not think the provision here is adequate for the purpose for which it is designed. In the first place, I am not prepared to say that the law of "domicile" is the same in all the Colonies, or in all parts of Canada, as is recognised in England. I think there ought to be some definition of "domicile." I am particularly interested in this question because I see my noble and learned Friend the Chancellor of the Duchy here. The other night, as your Lordships will remember, nothing wag more touching in my noble Friend's speech than the very interesting description of a gentleman coming home to this country and finding that he could not inherit land here. The phrase "coming home," which occurred frequently in my noble Friend's speech, rather suggested that domicile is a thing that can be changed, but, as your Lordships are aware, domicile means a permanent home. The domicile which is contemplated by this section ought to be defined in some more definite manner than the Amendment proposes. I would suggest to my noble Friend behind me, who is in charge of the Bill [Lord Strathcona and Mount Royal], that he should take counsel with my noble and learned Friend [Lord James of Hereford] as to defining "domicile," which may be a different thing in different Colonies, and which, at all events, requires definition.
  LORD JAMES OF HEREFORD: My Lords, the advice of the noble and learned Lord the Lord Chancellor has already been taken, because my noble Friend Lord Strathcona and myself have conferred on this point. I certainly would prefer, if my noble and learned Friend will allow me, that this Amendment should stand without definition. To define "domicile" is impossible. You must determine each case as it arises on the facts of the case. As Lord Bramwell once said—
  "If you asked me to define what is day and what is night, I could not do it, but I can always tell you whether it is day or whether it is night."
  So, in the same way, the question, when it arises in our courts, whether at the time of the marriage the parties to it had been domiciled, can always be determined without difficulty; and if the tribunal consisted of my noble and learned Friend the

  893
  Lord Chancellor there would always be a certainty that justice would be done on this question of domicile.
  THE LORD CHANCELLOR: Notwithstanding that compliment, by which my noble and learned Friend sought to get rid of any opposition, if you are going to make exceptional legislation on behalf of persons whose homes are in other parts of the world, I should like to have it defined in such a way that any tribunal would be able to give reasonable ground for the faith that is in them.
  Question put.
  Amendment agreed to.
  Amendment proposed—
  "Page 2, line 1, leave out from 'Act' to the end of the clause."—(Lord Stanley of Alderley.)
  LORD STANLEY OF ALDERLEY: My Lords, my object in moving this Amendment is to avoid the inconsistency which will exist if this Bill passes in its present form. The Bill proposes that these marriages shall be valid in this country, but at the same time it makes them invalid fiscally for the children of these marriages. If you are going to do an act of grace to the Colonies it should be complete; it is an ungracious act to extend a favour and then withdraw it with the other hand. There is no reason to suppose that any large sum of money will be involved, and I think it would be much better if the Treasury were to forego any claims in this matter. I therefore move the omission of the words—
  "And no claim by the Crown for duties leviable on or with reference to death, and before the passing of this Act due and payable, and no payment of or discharge for such duties before the passing of this Act duly made or given, shall be prejudicially affected hereby."
  LORD JAMES OF HEREFORD: My Lords, the promoters of the Bill cannot accept this Amendment. We cannot dispossess the Crown of duties which may become due, and therefore this safeguard must, so far as we are concerned, remain in the Bill.
  Question put.
  Amendment negatived.
  Question put—
  "That clause 1, as amended, stand part of the Bill."
  Motion agreed to.
  Question put—
  "That clause 2 stand part of the Bill."
  Motion agreed to, and Bill re-committed to the Standing Committee.

  NATIONAL MONUMENTS IN CHURCHES BILL.
  Order for Second Reading read.
  THE EARL OF CAMPERDOWN: My Lords, I beg to move the Second Reading of this Bill. Its provisions are few and simple, and I hope to be able to justify them to your Lordships in a very few words. It happens on rare occasions that individuals render service to the State, or attain eminence either in Parliament or in the learned professions, or in the intellectual or artistic world, which in the opinion of the Crown and of Parliament are deserving of a national memorial. My Lords, such a memorial generally takes the form of a statue or other monument in one of our national churches or cathedrals, which is erected almost always out of money furnished by Parliament, and after a faculty duly obtained from the dean or chapter or other body or person charged with the custody and care and maintenance of the sacred building. My Lords, as the law now stands the altering of everything within our cathedrals and within our national churches is absolutely at the discretion of the dean or chapter or other person charged with the care of the same for the time being; and it may happen that what one dean has approved of his successor may see fit to alter. My Lords, this Bill only proposes to alter the present law to this extent, that when a national monument as defined in the Bill has been erected, such national monument shall not be removed or altered without the permission of the Crown, duly obtained, and without the matter having been brought under the notice of Parliament in the manner provided in the Bill. I hope your Lordships will be of opinion that this is no more than is due in the first place to the family of

  895
  the deceased, to whom the monument is a most honoured and valuable possession; and also that it is no more than is due to the Crown and to Parliament, who had found the money for erecting the memorial, and who had previously obtained the permission of the then dean and chapter for that purpose. This is the whole effect of the Bill, and I venture to hope that your Lordships will give it a Second Reading.
  LORD BELPER: My Lords, on behalf of the Home Office I beg to say that they have no objection to this Bill being read a second time. The Bill appears practically only to do for the State in the case of State monuments precisely what the law at present does in regard to monuments erected by a private individual. In the latter case the monument cannot be removed without the consent of the heir-at-law, or somebody representing the people who contributed towards the cost of putting it up. It seems reasonable, in the case of a national monument, that it should not be removed without, at all events, the State, who have contributed to the cost of erecting, or who have erected, the monument being consulted. I have, therefore, no objection to the Bill being read a second time.
  Question put.
  Bill read a second time.

BILLS ADVANCED.
  UNION OF BENEFICES BILL.
  House in Committee (according to order); Bill reported without Amendment, and re-committed to the Standing Committee.
  NATIONAL MONUMENTS IN CHURCHES BILL. [H.L.]
  Read a second time (according to order); and committed to a Committee of the whole House To-morrow.
  LIBRARIES (OFFENCES) BILL.
  Amendments reported (according to order), and Bill to be read the third time To-morrow.
  PALATINE COURT OF DURHAM BILL. [H.L.]
  Read the third time (according to order), and passed, and sent to the Commons.
  SOLICITORS BILL. [H.L.]
  Amendments reported (according to order), and Bill to be read the third time To-morrow.
  COMPANIES ACT (1867) AMENDMENT (No. 2) BILL.
  Read the first time, and to be printed. [No. 154.]

  RIVERS POLLUTION PREVENTION (BORDER COUNTY COUNCILS) (No. 2) BILL.
  Read the first time, and to be printed. [No. 155.]
  House adjourned at 5.