Lords Sitting of 25 February 1898

Preamble
THE LORD CHANCELLOR THE LORD CHANCELLOR took his seat on the Woolsack at a quarter after Four of the clock.
BUSINESS OF THE HOUSE.

  SALE OF INTOXICATING LIQUORS.
  THE ARCHBISHOP OF CANTERBURY: My Lords, I beg to present a petition against the sale of intoxicating liquors on Sundays. It comes from North Kensington.
  Petition received.

  DUM-DUM BULLETS.
  LORD STANLEY OF ALDERLEY: My Lords, I beg to ask Her Majesty's Government whether they will lay on the Table any surgical reports on the wounds
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  of Piper Findlater and others caused by Dum-Dum bullets, so that the country may judge whether these are not contrary to the spirit of the Convention against explosive bullets; and to ask whether Her Majesty's Government sanctioned the issue of Dum-Dum bullets for military purposes. This, my Lords, is not a Service question, but one concerning international law, humanity, and medical science. It is a question of very great importance, because if the use of these bullets is continued, then, no doubt, every Continental army will adopt them, and they will be used against ourselves. In asking whether Her Majesty's Government sanctioned the issue of Dum-Dum bullets, I mean, did the head of the Government individually, or the Ministers collectively, sanction their use? If it is the Secretary of State for India who has sanctioned the use of these bullets, then it becomes a merely departmental affair, and does not pledge the country. If the Secretary of State for India did sanction the issue of Dum-Dum bullets, it is not so bad as some of the things he has done since he came into office. I heard a cynic outside this House say that

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  the Afridis were not protected by the Convention, because they were not parties to it. I am not now so much concerned with the Afridis as I am with our own soldiers. There is a Chinese maxim or proverb which says, "If you throw a tile in the air, it will fall on your own head." That is exactly what King David and King Solomon said about the wicked—namely, that they fell into the pit that they had digged for others; and this is what has happened to ourselves through the issue of Dum-Dum bullets to our troops—bullets which were invented for the shooting of tigers, and which are only fit to be used for tigers. Very shortly after it was known that these bullets had been issued, it was also known that many of our soldiers had been hit by such of these bullets as had come into the possession of the tribesmen. Colonel Wylie, our Envoy to Nipal, wrote a letter to the Pioneer in March of last year, extolling the effects of these bullets on tigers, and very soon after this letter was circulated, along with the advertisements of the manufacturers of these rifles and bullets, and the vendors of them in this country. Colonel Wylie mentions that one of these bullets struck the forearm of a tiger, and smashed the bone to atoms for a length of fully four inches. When explosive bullets were prohibited, nobody cared for their containing an explosive, the importance of condemning them consisted in the wounds they made, and the wounds made by expansive bullets are almost identical. I have been credibly informed of two things—firstly, that the Indian Government have sanctioned the use of these bullets, but that Her Majesty's Government have declined to accept them for the Queen's troops; secondly, that the principal medical officer of the Army was consulted before this bullet was used, and that he gave it as his opinion that it could not be called explosive within the meaning of the Convention. It is not necessary to consult a medical man in order to arrive at the conclusion that "explosive" and "expanding" have not the same meaning, and what is the use of consulting a medical man who has had no experience of the wounds caused by these bullets? Their effect on the human body is almost identical, and since explosive bullets have
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  been condemned, and are as barbarous as the use of poisoned arrows, these expanding bullets ought to be equally condemned, and their use prohibited to all civilised armies. From a military point of view, there is more to be said for explosive than for expansive bullets, since the former may be used for exploding ammunition wagons. It is doubtful whether a musket ball would ignite powder, but I have twice exploded parcels of powder with a Lee-Metford bullet. The Afridis say that we have used poisoned bullets. They consider that the bullets are poisoned in consequence of the very few recoveries from wounds that have been observed by them. And besides the injury done by the shreds of nickel, it is said that the lead becomes so comminuted as to enter into and poison the system. If any of those whose primary duty it is to advance medical and surgical science, have wished for subjects whose position would ensure the greatest attention to their wounds, their desire has been fulfilled in the cases of two of the most popular men wounded in the Frontier War. I refer to the two Gordon pipers. One of these pipers, Milne, was hit by an honest Lee-Metford or spherical bullet, and he has written to the papers to say that he was shot through the chest and through the lungs, but that he would soon be all right. The other piper, Find-later, was shot by a Dum-Dum bullet in both ankles, and it was said that his bones had been reduced to a pulp. It was not certain whether he had not suffered amputation, or might not still be exposed to that calamity. It was the Russian Government which took the lead in convening the Conference which led to the Convention of Brussels against explosive bullets, and in doing so it was following honourable traditions, for a correspondence of Count Joseph de Maistre, Piemontese Minister at St. Petersburg, published under the auspices of Count Cavour, stated that at the end of last century, or at the beginning of this, an inventor sold a conical bullet to the Russian Government; the bullet was laid aside, and the inventor complained, but was told that as he had been paid he had nothing more to say about it. Count Joseph de Maistre adds reflections upon the inutility of military

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  inventions, as they cannot be kept to the inventors, but become the property of all nations, and the Afridis have verified his words. At that time Russia was considered by many to be a barbarous country, and Count Xavier de Maistre, the brother of Count Joseph, had excluded it from civilisation by his definition of civilised countries as those in which Latin is taught. At the present time Latin is learned in Russia. Before passing, my Lords, to the second part of this subject, I hope I may be allowed a digression in order to congratulate Her Majesty's Government upon the acquisition of the Lee-Metford rifle for the use of Her Majesty's troops. Its accuracy is very great. It is very easy to get the range at a thousand yards, and it is only laterally that there is deviation when shooting in a high wind, and bad light from a cloudy sky. My Lords, whilst I was practising I had with me a Christian gentleman—a native of Southern India, not a Portuguese, nor a convert, but a gentleman who had been connected from his birth with the Church of England—and he told me that the Afridis prized their Lee-Metford rifles more than they did their wives. I think this shows the difficulty there would be in attempting to disarm them. I wish now, my Lords, to draw the attention of the Government to the manufacture and sale of bullets for pistols, which are similar to the Dum-Dum bullets, for home or domestic consumption. Tour Lordships must have seen advertisements in the Field and various other newspapers of pistol bullets capable of stopping a fanatic which make wounds three inches wide. The British householder will say to himself, that a burglar requires stopping as much as a fanatic, and will naturally provide himself with this ammunition. If the burglar only received such bullets, there might not be much cause for regret; but what usually happens is, that after the fear of burglars has subsided in any neighbourhood, the householder transfers the pistol from his dressing table drawer to a cupboard or chest, and some member of his family finds it, and, pointing it playfully at somebody, discharges the pistol, and the person is shot. With an ordinary bullet the individual who is shot might escape, but with such bullets as those I am referring to, the shot would
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  be fatal. When I last addressed the House on the unrestricted sale of cheap pistols, it was my good fortune to be answered by the noble Earl who represented the Home Office, Lord Chesterfield, because this compelled me to read over again his predecessor's letters to his son, to find some argument which he could not gainsay. I found nothing which could affect the noble Earl, but I found a passage which applied to Prime Ministers. It was this—
  "Happy is the man who has the power to benefit his fellow creatures; and still happier is he who, having the power, has also the will to exert it."
  I think a note said that this was taken from Cicero, but except on the score of antiquity, the saying does not derive more weight from him than it does from the great. Lord Chesterfield. This saying relieves me, I think, from the necessity of suggesting to Her Majesty's Government what their conduct ought to be with regard to these very cruel bullets, and I now conclude with a Motion for papers, in case I require a reply.
  THE UNDER SECRETARY OF STATE FOR INDIA (The EARL of ONSLOW): I hope your Lordships will excuse me if I do not follow the noble Lord into the various subjects he has touched upon, and if I content myself by merely replying to I he question. I understand he has moved that some papers be laid on the Table. We have had no reports on the wounds of Piper Findlater and others caused by Dum-Dum bullets. These bullets are not explosive at all, and their use is not contrary to the spirit of any convention or custom of war. No special sanction has been given by Her Majesty's Government, for the use of those bullets, as none was asked for or required.

  THE PLAGUE IN BOMBAY.
  *LORD REAY: My Lords, I rise to ask the Under Secretary of State for India—what is the extent of the increase of the plague in Bombay City this year over the corresponding period of last year; whether it has diminished in the rest of the Presidency; and, if so, to what

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  extent; what steps have been taken to prevent its spread to other parts of India, and how far have they been successful; whether in the conduct of plague operations greater success has been attained than last year in the detection of cases of death from the plague; and whether the co-operation of the people in these operations has been secured; and whether the hospital accommodation and staff of nurses and doctors is adequate to the requirements; and to what extent preventive inoculation has been made use of, and how far the native population have availed themselves of it? I regret, my Lords, that I have to ask the noble Earl opposite for further information with regard to the plague. The famine has disappeared, and we have the expectation of a very abundant harvest; but the plague is still with us, and has reappeared, I believe, in a rather virulent form. My noble Friend Lord Sandhurst has from the beginning thrown his full energy into the work, and devoted all his attention to the means of grappling with this great evil, and I believe that his indefatigable efforts have been very successful. He has been able to secure more and more the co-operation of the people, and to overcome the prejudices which are so widely spread in India against measures which contemplate any hygienic improvements. We have to deplore the recent loss of two nurses, who have shown so much devotion in the discharge of their difficult duties. Sir Richard Thorne lately urged the necessity of endeavouring to get at the root of the evil, which lies in the condition of large parts of the city of Bombay, and I was very pleased to see that this had not escaped the attention of the Bombay Government, and that on the 14th of this month Lord Sandhurst introduced into the Legislative Council a Bill, called the City of Bombay Improvement Bill, which I hope will soon become law. In a statement of the objects and reasons of the Bill, the following description is given of the existing state of things in Bombay—
  "Between 30 and 40 per cent. of the population is concentrated in areas forming together between 3 and 4 per cent. of the area of the Island, and the density of the population in these areas is double, and in parts more than three times that of the most crowded areas in
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  London. The mortality per thousand of population in these districts from all causes in 1896 varied from 52.15 to 68.09, the rate for the whole city being 40.71. Over a large section of these districts, the ground area per person is under 10 square yards, and the overcrowding and consequent air pollution are appalling the Health Officer records that the six sections of highest mortality are the six most densely populated sections, containing the darkest and dampest buildings, and that live out of the six are the sections of the worst drainage and soil pollution."
  With a view to effectually remedy these conditions, the Bill provides for the improvement of the City by forming new and altering existing streets, by removing or altering insanitary buildings, by providing open spaces for better ventilation, and for recreation, and by constructing new sanitary dwellings for certain classes of the inhabitants of the City and for the Presidency Police. It is further stated that—
  "It is found on investigation that it will be possible, by suitably aligning the new streets so urgently necessary for the improved ventilation of the densely populated parts of the City, to take up a large proportion of the insanitary dwellings in certain localities, as either a part of the street, or as frontage lands abutting thereon. The principle of adopting the alignment which will secure this in the largest degree, is obviously one that will regulate the conception of projects of this class."
  The machinery which the Bill proposes to put into operation to carry out the scheme is a Board of Trustees, on which the Corporation shall be strongly represented. The Bombay Government have been, to my mind, extremely judicious in selecting that agency, because the existing Board of Trustees for the Port has been hitherto exceedingly successful. It is intended that that Trust shall, in constitution and powers, very closely follow the lines on which the Port Trust was formed. The idea of such a Trust is not a new one, a prominent precedent being the City of Glasgow Improvement Trust, which was constituted for similar purposes, and has been most successful in its results. The proposal has received the approval of the Municipal Corporation, as well as that of the Chamber of Commerce and the Board of Trustees for the Port of Bombay. I know that this Bill has been introduced with the cordial assent of the Government of India, and I have no doubt that anything that can be done here will be done to expedite its passing

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  into law as a Bill of immediate urgency. It certainly reflects the greatest credit on the Administration in India that they I have hitherto been successful in limiting the extension of the plague, and that the greater part of India has not been afflicted by this terrible scourge. I beg, my Lords, to ask the Under Secretary of State for India the questions of which I have given notice.
  *THE EARL OF ONSLOW: My Lords, it is fortunate, in a way, that the greatest scourges which Providence inflicts on mankind are not always without some compensating advantages, and it has often happened, when a severe infliction such as the plague has fallen on a community that the result has been to wake up the minds of men to make preparation and take precautions against a recurrence of such evils. I am not without hope that if the Bill which the noble Lord has referred to—the City of Bombay Improvement Bill—is carried into law, the effect will be to make Bombay a much purer and a much healthier city in time to come than it has been in the past. In answer to the question which the noble Lord has placed on the paper, I may say that in Bombay city the plague and plague deaths were rapidly growing worse from the 1st December last until the week ending the 11th February the present month. The number of reported plague deaths in Bombay city were, for instance, for the three weeks ending January 28th, February 4th, and February 11th, 840, 1,004, and 1,220 respectively. The corresponding figures for last year were, on the other hand, 402, 607, and 803 only. The last telegram received from India contains, fortunately, better news. The deaths for the week ending February 18th have fallen to 1,136, or 84 less than in the previous week. This is the first time for ten weeks that our weekly telegram has not shown a progressive increase in the reported plague deaths in Bombay city. For the corresponding week in 1897 the figure was 849, as compared with the 1,136 mentioned. But it must be pointed out that the Government of Bombay believe the plague deaths to be more strictly and more completely reported now than they were
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  last year. Also, they estimate the present population of the city at 800,000 persons, as compared with about 450,000 last year, owing to the exodus on account of the panic caused by the plague. Immense efforts are being made in a systematic way to combat the plague and prevent its spreading in the city, and experience of successful plague campaigns elsewhere is being utilised. The Government, its officers, and the Governor himself are not sparing themselves. The hospitals are well organised, the supply of doctors and nurses is sufficient, reinforcements being sent from home, at two or three days' notice, whenever asked for. Ten more doctors went this week. In all, 59 men and women doctors and 61 nurses have been sent. It is with deep regret that I have to inform your Lordships I hat two of the lady nurses, Miss Morgan and Miss MacDougall—the latter of whom is the sister of a valued colleague of mine on the London County Council—have died of plague during the performance of their duties. The Plague Committee has recently been strengthened, and the superior skilled staff is nearly double that employed last year. In addition, part of the detective staff are employed in research work. As an instance of the manner in which the Bombay Plague Committee carries out its work, I may mention that recently 16,600 houses were inspected during a single week, with the result that 600 plague cases were discovered. Camp accommodation was also ready for 8,800 persons, and was in course of construction for 15,000 persons, so that accommodation for 23,800 persons either has now been, or will be, provided. Twenty-nine hospitals were also open containing 1,011 cases. For purposes of organisation, Bombay city has been divided into wards, which are sub-divided into districts and sub-divisions of districts, and these again into smaller areas. Persons who have been in contact with the sick are carefully segregated. About 7½ per cent. of such persons are found to be infected. The people themselves are, to some extent, co-operating, and it may be hoped that the epidemic will yield to continued persistent, and well-directed effort. In the Bombay Presidency, outside Bombay, the situation is very different. In Karachi city, where the plague was most severe and fatal

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  last year, and in the province of Sind, generally, there has been no plague this year except six cases in Upper Sind; there has not been a single plague death in Karachi for four and a half months. Over the whole of the Bombay Presidency (including native States) outside Bombay city plague deaths ranged from 1,800 to 2,000 deaths per week during November, 1897; during the past four weeks, the total plague deaths in the same territory have been 945, 868, 866, and 747, during the week ended February 18th. In individual towns the decrease has been much more marked; thus Poona city averaged 431 plague deaths a week during November, while during the past two weeks the Poona plague deaths have been 37 and 21. In Sattara district plague deaths ranged from 696 to 1,003 a week during November; during the past two weeks in Sattara plague deaths have been 110 and 84. In Sholapur, Palanpur, Kutch, and almost every town and district, except Baroda, there has been a gradual or a rapid diminution of plague deaths during the past two months. We may say that within the Presidency of Bombay, outside Bombay city, and even in Bombay city, to some extent, as already explained, the plague has almost everywhere diminished: the measures taken against plague have been improved and extended; while, on the whole, the people have come, or are coming, to acquiesce in, or even sometimes to co-operate in, anti-plague work. It is only in new places where plague operations first begin that opposition occurs, and only in a very few cases has any act of overt opposition been recorded. Constant precautions and inspections are taken through the agency of men and women doctors, and other trustworthy officials on the railways and at seaports to prevent plague from being carried to other parts of India. So far these measures have succeeded in preventing the spread of the epidemic, which has now raged for 18 months in the western Presidency. The latest weekly reports for India, outside the Presidency of Bombay, show a very few cases in Rajputana on the confines of Bombay
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  territory, and a very few imported or sporadic cases in the Saharanpur district of the North-West Provinces, near to Hardwar. Plague is also prevalent in epidemic form in some ten villages on the borders of the Jullundur and Hoshiapur districts of the Punjaub. In these villages plague has been present for six months, but the restrictive measures taken have so far succeeded in preventing its spreading beyond this small area. In the Nizam's territory of Haidarabad a larger number of cases is reported, but measures are being taken to cope with the outbreak efficiently. No plague is reported from other parts of India. The anti-plague measures, no doubt, cause inconvenience and annoyance to the people, as they would do to us if, unhappily, they had to be taken in the United Kingdom. But every effort, by constant care and inspection, is made to prevent all avoidable trouble and annoyance to the people. Where causeless inconvenience occurs the remedy is applied promptly, and on the whole the people appear to admit the expediency of these measures and to recognise the goodwill of the Government in the matter. As to the steps taken to prevent the spread of the plague, I may mention that travellers by railway, steamer, and boat, from plague districts, to other parts of India, are examined by medical men and women, disinfected, and, if necessary, retained in segregation camps before they are allowed to proceed to, or disembark at their destination. Similarly, persons leaving infected cities and towns, are examined before they are allowed to start, and are detained if their symptoms or previous surroundings give cause for apprehension that the travellers may carry plague to non-infected districts. As to prevent inoculation against plague, this has been largely employed after the system of Dr. Haffkine, and the Government of India consider that the result of his experiments made at Damaun is so encouraging that they are not without hope that protection may be proved to be possible by means of prophylactic inoculation. They think that every opportunity should be taken

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  to test its efficacy, and local governments and administrations have been directed to procure a supply of serum for the use of persons who desire to have themselves inoculated. Dr. Haffkine, himself has recently been instructed to proceed to Baroda to carry out inoculation there. Information on this and other subjects will be laid before your Lordships in a Blue Book which is now passing through the Press.
  The House adjourned at 5.5, till Monday, 4.45.