§ *LORD STANMOREI rise, my Lords, to move for copies of any correspondence between Her Majesty's Government and the Government of Belgium, relative to the meeting of a Conference on the subject of sugar bounties. My Lords, in moving the Motion which stands in my name this evening, I wish, in the first place, to disclaim any premature curiosity to know the intentions of Her Majesty's Government. I have not the smallest intention to inquire what is the nature of the pecuniary assistance which Her Majesty's Government is disposed to 839 advance to the Sugar Colonies, and I do not intend to make that inquiry for two reasons, which appear to me very sufficient. The first is that it is only natural, and indeed right, that the Government should desire not to make any disclosure of what their intentions are until the time comes for their proposing them to the House of Commons with the other financial Measures; and the other reason, if somewhat less argumentative, is, I venture to think, equally conclusive. It is this: that however persistent my inquiries might be, or however fluent and persuasive the language in which they were put, instead of being much the reverse, I am sure my noble Friend at the head of the Government would not tell me. I wish also to disclaim any intention of making any inquiry as to the nature of the instructions which may be given to those who may be charged with the conduct of the representation, of England at this Conference, if it takes place. I am content to rest them in the hands of the Government. What I do ask for are Papers which shall give us some official information of that which we have all heard privately—namely, whether an invitation has been given to Her Majesty's Government to enter into a Conference on this subject, and, if so, what are the terms of that invitation, and the terms of the answer which has been given to it? That is my Motion. I have been told, I do not know with what truth, that, besides that invitation and that answer, Her Majesty's Government previously put forward an invitation for a similar Conference. I do not know whether that is true or not, but, if it is true, perhaps my noble Friend at the head of the Government will not object to that being included in the Papers. The terms of it may be of importance. That is the scope of my Motion, and I am not sure that I should have made it at so early a period in the Session had it not been that I have been requested, on behalf of a very large number of Her Majesty's subjects in the West Indies and in Mauritius, to take the very earliest possible moment for expressing publicly in this House the gratitude which they all feel to Her Majesty's Government for the expression of sympathy which they have used with regard to the hardships of the Sugar Colonies, and for the promise of aid 840 which they have given; but, at the same time, I am bound to add that, with that expression of gratitude and thankfulness, which is perfectly sincere, they all universally expressed their opinion—an opinion which I confess I share—that no doles, however lavish, no grant, however generous, can effect more than a temporary termination of the suffering they undergo. It will be sufficient to tide over the period of change from the one industry to the other, but as a permanent cure it will be totally useless. They almost all agree in their one panacea. Rightly or wrongly they all regard the abolition of foreign bounties on sugar as the only measure which is likely to do them good. As to how that may best be brought about, this is not the time for discussion; other opportunities will come up for its discussion. I do not intend to enter upon that subject now, nor is it of much importance to me. If the bounties be got rid of I do not suppose any one of those concerned much cares how it will be effected. We have the assurance of the Secretary of State for the Colonies that the Government will not allow the West Indies to be ruined, and, therefore, we presume they will take what they consider the most effectual means to bring about this result. But before I sit down there is one thing which I do wish, if possible, to impress upon your Lordships—I would say to impress upon Her Majesty's Government, but I think Her Majesty's Government is fully aware of the fact at present—it is this: that all-important as the economic aspect of this question is, that is not its only aspect, and perhaps it is that aspect which has had given to it even more than its fair share of consideration. I wish to urge you all to take into consideration the political and social aspects of this question, aspects which are of the highest importance, and of equal importance to the economic aspect. What is the language of Her Majesty's Commissioners? You may be quite sure that their language is guarded, careful, cool, judicious, there is nothing rhetorical or exaggerated about it; but if you look at their Report it practically tells you that if the sugar industry of the West Indies is destroyed before any other industry takes its place, the consequences will be not only to ruin all those who are immediately interested, 841 but to ruin all those who depend upon them—the ruin not only of rich men and planters, but of the labouring class as well. The Report also slates that it will mean the cessation of schools, that it will prevent the making of new roads, and the keeping up of the present ones. It will mean that you will not be able to keep up an efficient police force; all this means, if you put them together, a state very little short of anarchy. Then there are many people who say that these interests are small, and that it docs not much matter, but I believe the principle is the same whether the interests are large or small. I believe we are equally concerned. But suppose a similar state of things existed with regard to the East Indies, suppose that some external action threatened there a similar cessation of all the springs of Government, and all the outcomes of civilisation: what we should do in such a case would be, in the first instance, to see what could be done to remedy it, and to see what was the practical usefulness of the Measures proposed to us rather than what was their theoretical character. I think I have said enough to justify the Motion which I have made, and I will not say much more on it, because I feel that the interests of the Sugar Colonies are safe in the hands of Her Majesty's Government. The Secretary of State for the Colonies has told us that they are not to be ruined. My noble Friend at the head of the Government told us two years ago, when corresponding with the United States, that we had no intention of giving up the West Indies, but it is very, undesirable that a growing feeling of unwilling disloyalty should be springing up there. I say "unwilling disloyalty" because I believe they are essentially loyal and desirous of maintaining their connection with this country. On Friday there was sent to me a report of a great meeting held in Jamaica, the language used at which showed unwilling disloyalty. One of the largest proprietors there made a speech in which he spoke very feelingly of his connection with the British Empire, and of the regret he would have in giving up his own beautiful home, but he ended by saving that sentiment was strong, but starvation was still stronger, and, looking at the advantages they would derive from an intimate connection with the 842 United States, he was not prepared to say that such a connection was not desirable. I have spoken of "the Sugar Colonies," not of "the West Indies," and I have done so purposely, because there has been great ambiguity. I do not feel sure as to what is intended: whether it is meant among the Sugar Colonies to include Mauritius or not, or whether the assistance which Her Majesty's Government holds forth is to be extended to the West Indies only. I should like to ask whether Mauritius is to receive part of the pecuniary aid which the Government contemplates giving, and, if not, why not? I may, perhaps, venture to say that I know a little about Mauritius. I was for some years its Governor. I have pecuniary interests there which are to me not unimportant, and which have kept me in touch with the Colony to the present day. I maintain, without fear of contradiction, that it is as exclusively dependent upon the sugar interest as any island in the West Indies, and that, unlike many of the islands in the West Indies, it has no means of replacing its sugar cultivation by any other cultivation. It is too far south to grow cocoa. Coffee flourishes there in the hurricane season, and every year you have in that season great torrents of rain, which prevent any good crop. The minor industries there are dependent solely on the sugar industry. By far the greater part of the population are dependent on the sugar industry, and if that industry were to come to an end suddenly all those Indian labourers would be thrown out of work, and I confess the state of things there would then be very serious indeed. As it is, for a long time Mauritius maintained itself while the West Indies suffered, and it is only the grant of these later bounties that has affected the Indian market which Mauritius supplies. There is a direct case of cause and effect. Only last night I had a letter from one of the greatest planters, and perhaps the most respected man in all Mauritius. He wrote to me, stating that every ship that left for Madagascar carried away some proprietors or employees, or persons connected with the sugar interest, and, he said, "they go with hatred in their hearts, and cursing the name of England." Well, it was not pleasant to read that, however undeserved it may be, and I 843 hold that Mauritius should share with the other Sugar Colonies the bounty which is to be given, because they have suffered, and still suffer, from this cause. I am afraid I have already detained your Lordships too long, but I do hope that this question, when it is considered, will be considered in no Party spirit. It is essentially a national and not a Party question. The question before us is whether it is to be considered in the manner in which Mr. Chamberlain at Liverpool told us it was to be considered, namely, that the Colonies were to be looked on as part of ourselves, and that the sea only separates us as the highway separates us from our nearest neighbour, or whether they are to be looked at in the spirit of the old Romans who cared little how they oppressed or plundered a province, if the capital was kept in good humour. I now move my Motion.
§ THE PRIME MINISTER AND SECRETARY OF STATE FOR FOREIGN AFFAIRS (The MARQUESS OF SALISBURY)I am not surprised at the interest my noble Friend has felt and expressed in this very important question, but I ventured to tell him, when he spoke to me privately at the beginning of the Session, that I thought we had not reached the period at which it was possible for Her Majesty's Government to speak freely on this question, and I am afraid that that reserve is actually justified by the facts of the moment. There are two reasons why I cannot give to my noble Friend any full reply upon this matter.
§ LORD STANMOREI did not ask for one.
THE PRIME MINISTERI understood the noble Lord asked several questions. I did not imagine that they involved no reply. However, I will merely state the reasons why I am unable to follow my noble Friend through his interesting remarks. He asks for Papers with respect to a meeting of the Sugar Conference. I can only say the correspondence is not completed, but as soon as the correspondence is completed I shall have the greatest pleasure in laying before the House the Papers referring to remedial Measures which the Colonial Secretary has announced he contemplates with regard to this matter. It is obvious I can- 844 not speak with respect to them until the announcement has been made by the Colonial Secretary in another place. After that period we shall be very happy to discuss with my noble Friend, either in the way of criticism or otherwise, whatever he thinks ought to be debated on this matter, but I do not feel that I can now go into the question. It is almost impossible to pursue a mathematical calculation when all the factors are unknown, and it is equally impossible under similar conditions to make a Parliamentary speech. Under these circumstances, I will only say that when the moment is more favourable, I shall be delighted to go into this question with my noble Friend.
§ LORD STANMOREIs Mauritius included?
§ LORD STANMOREthen withdrew his Motion.