Lords Sitting of 14 February 1898

BUSINESS OF THE HOUSE.

  STATUTE LAW REVISION.
  THE LORD CHANCELLOR: My Lords, I beg to introduce a Bill entitled
  "An Act for further promoting the revision of the Statute law by repealing the enactments which have ceased to be in force or have become unnecessary."
  Bill read accordingly.

  MARINE INSURANCE.
  LORD HERSCHELL: My Lords, I beg to present a Bill to codify the law relating to marine insurance, and to move that it be read a first time.
  Bill read accordingly.

  COPYRIGHT AMENDMENT BILL.
  LORD MONKSWELL: in moving the second rending of the Copyright (Amendment) Bill, said: My Lords, this Bill is word for word the Bill that passed through your Lordships' House last Session too late to go through the other House. My Lords, I do not think it will be necessary for me to inflict upon your Lordships the speeches I made on a former occasion. It will only be necessary for me to say a few words with regard to the scope and the precise object of the Bill, and how it attained its present form. The Bill, as originally introduced last Session, came to this House, I venture to think, with a great deal of authority It was a Bill emanating from the Society of Authors, who have taken into their confidence the chief publishing firms, and also the Copyright Association; and the Bill as it was originally introduced into this House—in its main lines at any rate—was acceptable, not only to the authors, but also to the publishers and the Copyright Asso-
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  ciation. The Bill as originally introduced was only a small Bill; it only proposed to deal with some of the most crying evils in a manner as little contentious as possible. The Bill was read a second time, and referred to a Select Committee. I venture to think that that Select Committee was a strong Select Committee. The Benches opposite were represented by Lords Knutsford, Hatherton, Tennyson, and Pirbright, and these Benches by Lords Hobhouse, Thring, Farrer, and Welby. The Select Committee held several meetings, and examined several witnesses. The result of their labours was that the Bill, as it reappeared in this House, was a considerably smaller Measure than the Measure originally introduced, because the principle on which they acted was to strike out of the Bill everything except what they considered to be most essential and least contentious. On the third reading a further clause, enabling the Colonies to adopt the provisions of the Bill, was struck out at the instance of the Colonial Office. The Bill as it finally left the House dealt only with translations, abridgments, dramatisation of novels, magazine articles, and lectures. What the Bill proposes to do may be summarised as follows—namely, to make translations and abridgments infringements of copyright, and also the dramatisation of novels The present copyright in lectures it proposes to extend to sermons. It will permit newspaper reports, unless the lecturer forbids them. The law with regard to magazine articles, which is very important, and becoming more and more important every day, is at present very obscure. The Bill makes the present law intelligible, and allows an author to republish, separately, three years after publication, in a magazine, instead of 28 years. Of course, a Bill of this kind is not final. Authors must take what they can when they can. Last year the noble Earl the Parliamentary Secretary of the Board of Trade told me that at some period not very precisely to be ascertained. Her Majesty's Government would consider the question of introducing a large and comprehensive Measure with regard to copyright. I sincerely hope Her Majesty's Government will, within a reasonable time, do so; but that, no doubt, is rather a large order,

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  and the Society of Authors in the meantime have requested me to ask your Lordships to allow this Bill to pass through your House with all convenient speed, in order that it may have the best chance in another place. My Lords, the authors are strongly of opinion that to take this course to pass the Measure would not hinder, but would facilitate, the advent of that millenium when the whole law of copyright may perhaps be made intelligible, and be based to some extent upon reason and justice. My Lords, I beg to move that this Bill be read a second time.
  THE EARL OF DUDLEY: I do not wish, on behalf of the Board of Trade, to say a word against the provisions of this Bill, or to offer any opposition to its second reading. I think there is no doubt that it is a Bill which has been greatly improved by having been considered by a Select Committee last year, and that it now constitutes a clear and reasonable attempt to amend the copyright law, which, regarded, at any rate, from a legal point of view, seems to be in a somewhat confused and unintelligible condition. But, my Lords, although the provisions of this Bill may be excellent in themselves, I do not think that even the noble Lord will claim—in fact, he has told your Lordships this evening that he does not claim—that the Bill covers the whole field of possible or even desirable reform upon the subject of copyright. As the noble Lord has told the House, the Select Committee themselves left untouched last year several questions which, no doubt, they would otherwise have dealt with had the time at their disposal been greater, or had the scope of their inquiry been more extended. This being so, my Lords, I do not hesitate to repeat the opinion which I expressed last year, that if the law of copyright is to be dealt with at all, it would be much better to deal with it in a comprehensive and thorough manner, than in a partial and piece-meal way, such as the noble Lord suggests. But I can quite understand that, having regard to the long time which has elapsed since the Commission of 1878 reported, the noble Lord begins to despair of seeing anything like a comprehensive Bill introduced into Parliament, and that he is impatient to obtain, as it were, on
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  account, some of those reforms which he desires to see enacted. I believe, my Lords, that I am perfectly justified in stating that an attempt is going to be made within a few days to introduce a much wider and more comprehensive Bill than that which the noble Lord has introduced—a Bill which will not only deal with a wider amendment of the law than is now proposed, but which also deals with consolidation. Therefore, my Lords, it seems worth while to suggest to my noble Friend opposite whether it would not be advantageous in the general interests of copyright reform, that his Bill, as well as the other, should be referred to a Select Committee of your Lordships' House, so that the two might be considered together, and read, if possible, into one Bill. I understand that the provisions of the noble Lord's Bill are almost entirely embodied in the other, and, therefore, there would be little, if any, danger of confliction between the two. I only hold this out as a suggestion, and if it does not meet with the approval of the noble Lord I do not intend to press it; but at the same time it seems to me that it would be a course which would probably be adopted in another place if this Bill passes through your Lordships' House. I think it would be more convenient for the noble Lord to have it referred to a Select Committee in a House where he himself could sit upon the Committee, than that the two Bills should go into another House, and be fused by a Committee on which he could not sit. There is another point. I observe that the limitation clause in last year's Bill has now been dropped, and, therefore, I think the noble Lord made a mistake in saying that this Bill is word for word the same as last year's Bill.
  LORD MONKSWELL: It is the same as the other Bill, as amended on third reading.
  THE EARL OF DUDLEY: At any rate, I am advised that under Clause 12, as it now stands, the effect would be to apply the provisions of this Bill to each of the self-governing Colonies. That is a provision which I am afraid the Government cannot assent to, and I am sure the noble Lord will himself understand the great importance of confining any amendment to the copyright law, which

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  he may undertake, to the United Kingdom—at any rate, until the self-governing Colonies have had an opportunity of expressing their wishes and views with regard to it. With the exception of that point, which I am sure the noble Lord will meet in Committee, I have no further criticism to make, and I am glad to support the second reading.
  *VISCOUNT KNUTSFORD: I support most strongly the view taken by the noble Earl who has just spoken with regard to the Colonies. In the Bill of last Session, which was confined to the United Kingdom, there was a special clause enabling the self-governing Colonies to have the provisions of the Bill applied to them if they desired it; but this clause was omitted at the desire of Her Majesty's Government. I trust it will now be re-inserted. As regards the other part of his observations I most sincerely hope that he will not press the point that this Bill should wait until there has been a consolidation Bill introduced, and then that both Bills should be referred to a Select Committee. It will be remembered that this Bill has been through a Select Committee, and though we now learn, to our satisfaction, that a Copyright Consolidation Bill will be introduced by the Government——
  THE EARL OF DUDLEY: It will be a private Bill.
  *VISCOUNT KNUTSFORD: Then I still more strongly urge that this Bill should not wait. If the proposed Copyright Consolidation Bill is not to be a Government Measure, I trust your Lordships will not entertain the question for a moment that this Bill should go again through a Select Committee of your Lordships' House in conjunction with the Copyright Consolidation Bill, which, as a private Bill, will have very little, if, indeed, any, chance of getting through the House of Commons this Session. I certainly think there is a chance of this smaller Bill, which only proposes certain amendments, getting through that House.
  LORD MONKSWELL: Perhaps, my Lords, I might mention that I will be willing to agree to any Amendment with regard to the Colonics.
  Bill read a second time.

  COMPANIES' BILLS.
  THE EARL OF DUDLEY: My Lords, this Bill is identical with those which were introduced to your Lordships' House, and which passed their second reading last Session and the Session before. Your Lordships will remember that on each occasion those Bills were referred to a Select Committee, in order that further consideration should be given to the important questions contained in them; but, unfortunately, the Select Committee, owing to the mass of evidence which had to be called, was not able to complete its work, and I, therefore, ask your Lordships to give this Bill a second reading now in order that the Select Committee may be again appointed and continue its labours.
  Bill read a second time, and referred to Select Committee.
  House adjourned at ten minutes before Five, till to-morrow, a quarter past Four o'clock.