Lords Sitting of 11 August 1898

Preamble
THE LORD CHANCELLORtook his seat on the Woolsack at a Quarter past Four of the Clock.
PUBLIC BILLS.
  VAGRANCY ACT AMENDMENT BILL.
  Returned from the Commons with the Amendments agreed to.
COMPANIES BILL. [H.L.]
  COPYRIGHT BILL. [H.L.]
    COPYRIGHT (AMENDMENT) BILL. [H.L.]
    Message from the Commons for copies of the Reports, etc., from the Select Committees. Ordered to be communicated accordingly.
RETURNS, REPORTS, ETC.
  AFRICA, No. 10 (1898).
  Report by Her Majesty's Commissioner in Uganda on the recent mutiny of the Soudanese troops in the Protectorate.
  COMMERCIAL, No. 7 (1898).
  Temporary arrangement regulating commercial relations between the United Kingdom and the German Empire.

  TRADE REPORTS.
  Annual Series: Diplomatic and Consular Reports on Trade and Finance:

  No. 2172: Italy; Finances.

  No. 2173: Italy; Naples, etc.

  ARMY.
  1. Memorandum issued by the Commander-in-Chief, dated 28th April, 1898;
  2. Schedule of purchases of property at Salisbury Plain.

  GOVERNMENT LABORATORY (INLAND REVENUE BRANCH).
  Report of Dr. Thorpe on the work of, for—

  1. The year ended 31st March, 1897; with appendices.

  2. The year ended 31st March, 1898; with appendices.

  Forty-first Report of the Commissioners of Inland Revenue, for the year ended 31st March, 1898.
  POST OFFICE.
  Forty-fourth Report of the Postmaster General.
  Forty-second Report of the Commissioners of Customs, being for the year ended 31st March, 1898.
  SOUTH WALES COAL TRADE DISPUTE.
  Correspondence respecting proceedings under the Conciliation Act, 1896, in relation to the dispute in the coal trade of South Wales and Monmouth.
  INDIA.
  1. Contagious Diseases, No. 2, 1898. General Order issued by the Commander-in-Chief in India, on 14th July, 1897, regarding the means of checking venereal disease among the British troops in India; 2. Statistical abstract relating to British India from 1887–88 to 1896–97. Thirty-second Number.
  INDIAN CURRENCY COMMITTEE, 1898.
  Minutes of evidence taken before the Committee appointed to inquire into the Indian currency; together with an analysis of the evidence; Part 1.
  LOCAL TAXATION (IRELAND).
  Returns for the year 1897.
  PUBLIC RECORDS (IRELAND).
  Thirtieth Report of the Deputy-Keeper of the Public Records and Keeper of State Papers in Ireland.
  IRISH DAY MAILS.
  Report of Committee appointed by the Treasury to inquire into the acceleration of the Irish day mails; with minutes of evidence.
  PUBLIC WORKS, IRELAND.
  Sixty-sixth annual Report of the Commissioners of Public Works in Ireland, with appendices, for the year ended 31st March, 1898.
  TRAMWAY AND GAS AND WATER ORDERS.
  Report by the Board of Trade of their proceedings under the Tramways Act, 1870, and the Gas and Water Works Facilities Act, 1870, during the Session of 1898.
  NATIONAL EDUCATION (IRELAND).
  1. Sixty-fourth Report of the Commissioners of National Education in Ireland, For the year 1897–98; 2. Sections 2, 3, and 4 of the appendix to the annual Report of the Commissioners for the year 1897–98.
  REFORMATORY AND INDUSTRIAL SCHOOLS.
  Thirty-sixth Report of the Inspector. Presented (by Command), and ordered to lie on the Table.
  FORESHORES.
  Treasury Minute, dated 6th August, 1898, directing the application of moneys received by the Board of Trade in the year ended 31st March, 1898, in respect of the rights and interests of the Crown in the foreshores of the United Kingdom.
  INTERMEDIATE EDUCATION (IRELAND).
  Receipts and expenditure of the Intermediate Education Board for Ireland, for the year ended 31st December, 1897; together with the Report of the comptroller and Auditor General thereon.
  LOCAL GOVERNMENT ACT, 1888 (COUNTY OF WORCESTER).
  Order of the County Council of Worcester constituting the urban district of King's Norton and Northfield from the parishes of King's Norton, Northfield, and Beoley, under section 57 of the Act, as confirmed by the Local Government Board.
  EXTRADITION ACTS, 1870 to 1895.
  Order in Council, of 9th August, 1898, giving effect to the Anglo-Chilian Extradition Treaty of 26th January, 1897.
  WINTER ASSIZES ACTS, 1876 AND 1877.
  Eight Orders in Council of 9th August, 1898, giving the Winter Assizes Acts, 1876 and 1877, relating to the ensuing winter assizes. Laid before the House (pursuant to Act), and ordered to lie on the Table.
PRIVATE BILLS.

  AMENDMENT OF STANDING ORDERS.
  THE CHAIRMAN OF COMMITTEES (The Earl of MORLEY): My Lords, I beg to move that the Standing Orders be amended as follows:—
  Note.—The words underlined are to be omitted, and the words printed in italics are to be inserted.
  Deposit of plans, sections, and map at Fisheries and Harbour Department, Board of Trade, in case of words on tidal lands.
  "26. In cases where the work is to be situate on tidal lands within the ordinary spring tides are to be acquired or in any way affected, copy of the plans and sections shall on or before the thirtieth day November immediately preceding the application for the Bill, be deposited at the Office of the Fisheries and Harbour Department, Board of Trade, marked 'Tidal Waters'; and on such copy all tidal waters shall be coloured blue; and, if the plans include any bridge across tidal waters, the dimensions as regards span and headway of the nearest bridges, if any, across the same tidal waters, above and below the proposed new bridge, shall be marked thereon; and in all such cases such plans and sections shall be accompanied by an Ordnance or published map of the country over which the works are proposed to extend, or are to be carried, with their position and extent or route accurately laid down thereon:
  Deposit of plans, sections and map with Board of Conservators (if any) in case of works affecting river.
  "And, in cases where the work is to be situate on the banks, foreshore, or bed of any river having Conservators constituted by or under Act of Parliament, a copy of the plans and sections shall, on or before the thirtieth day of November immediately preceding the application for the Bill, be deposited at the Office of the Fisheries and Harhour Department of the Board of Trade and
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  at the Office of the Conservators of the river, and, if the plans include any tunnel under or bridge over the river, the depth of such tunnel below the bed of the river or the span and headway of such bridge shall be marked thereon; and such plans shall be accompanied by an Ordnance or published map of the country over which the works are proposed to extend or are to be carried, with their position and extent or route accurately laid down thereon.
  Deposits on or before the 21st of December.
  Deposit of Bills all Treasury and other public Deportments.
  "33. On or the twenty-first day if December
  "(3) A printed copy of every loca Bill relating to any dock, harbour, navigation, pier or port, or tidal waters, shall be deposited at the Office of the Fisheries and Harbour Department of the Board of Trade, marked Tidal Waters';
  Deposit of Bills with River Conservators.
  "34 a On or before the twenty-first day of December a printed copy of every Bill of the Second Class whereby it is intended to authorise the construction of any work on the banks, foreshore, or bed of any river having a Board of Conservators constituted by or under Act of Parliament, shall be deposited at the Office of the Fisheries and Harbour Department of the Board of Trade and at the Office of the Conservators of the River.
  Reference of Bills, etc., to and Duties of and Practice before Examiners.
  Petitions for additional provisions.
  "71. All petitions for additional provision in local Bills originating in this House shall, on the presentation thereof, be referred to the Examiners, who shall examine the same and report thereon in respect of all orders which would have been applicable in the case of a Bill.
  "In cases where provisions are sought to be inserted upon petition, for additional provision, which were comprised in the original notices but were not contained in the Bill as introduced into Parliament, the original notices shall not be, held to apply to the additional provisions proposed to be inserted."
  Question put.
  Motion agreed to.

  HOUSE OF LORDS' OFFICES.
  THE CHAIRMAN OF COMMITTEES: My Lords, I beg to move the adoption of the Second Report of the Select Committee on the House of Lords' Offices.
  Question put.
  Motion agreed to.

PUBLIC BUSINESS.

  COMPANIES BILL.
  THE LORD CHANCELLOR (The Earl of HALSBURY): My Lords, in relation to the Report of the Committee on the Companies Bill, which has now been sitting, as your Lordships are aware, for two Sessions, I desire to explain that the evidence upon the subject, which is very voluminous and important, has been printed by the Order of the House, but there has been no time for the Committee to consider their Report. Of course, the subject of the whole formation of Joint Stock Companies has been for a considerable time before the public eye, and I am not surprised that a great many people are desirous that the Report of the Committee should be issued with the sanction of all the members of the Committee; but the evidence did not close until late in the Session, and there has been no time since that period for the Members of the Committee to meet and consider what Report they should make on the Bill which was originally submitted to them for consideration. I think it is well that people should understand the difficulties in the way of that Committee going through the matter more quickly than they have been able to do. My noble and learned Friends, Lord Davey, Lord Macnaghten, and Lord James of Hereford, are Members of that Committee, and undoubtedly their presence and authority will give a value to the Report when it is made which it would not possess if they were not present. There are other noble Lords who are familiar with commercial and financial questions who have been associated with us, and it has been a very great advantage to us all that
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  we should meet and consider these questions with reference to any legislation which might be intended to be passed. Certainly it is our hope, if, as we desire, we should be re-appointed, that we shall be able in some way to suggest some amendments to the law, which I for one quite admit are required in the present state of things, where almost all the great commercial interests of the country are tending towards the establishment of joint stock companies. It is not unnatural that a great number of persons are interested in this question and would desire the assistance of your Lordships in legislation on the subject. The problem is not an easy one to solve, but, speaking for myself—as we have not had time to consider the evidence, I cannot speak for the whole Committee—I should certainly say that nothing more disastrous could happen to the commerce of the country than any attempt to place shackles on the development of joint stock companies carrying on industrial enterprises. A part of the evidence, which will no doubt make a great impression, points to the ridiculously small proportion which what are called fraudulent companies bear to the enormous mass of bona fide commercial enterprises, bona fide and profitable in all respects; but, as I have said, it has been impossible to proceed more quickly in this matter by reason of the draft which the Committee makes upon the judicial strength of the House. Three members of the judicial body have been taken away, and Ave have not been able, with due regard to the judicial business of the country, to give more than one day a week to the work of the Committee. The draft on the time of two of the members of the Committee has been fairly well understood, and, indeed, I should have thought that it would also have been well understood that the Lord Chancellor has something else to do besides sitting on the Woolsack at a quarter past four o'clock; but some gentleman has been good enough to send me a speech of a member of the late Government, who suggests that the only function of the Lord Chancellor is to make magistrates, and who comments with some severity upon the emoluments he is supposed to receive for that sinecure office. I should have thought that a Member

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  of the late Government would have understood what the Lord Chancellor has to do and what his position is. He was a member of the Administration is, which my noble Friend Lord Herschell was Lord Chancellor; and in this House, when an attack was made upon my noble Friend, he gave an account, satisfactory to the public, though perhaps not satisfactory to himself, of the enormous number of duties which the Lord Chancellor has to discharge—duties which, in his absence, I may say, he has always most admirably discharged. That any member of the late Government should in Cheshire have made that statement is, to my mind, extraordinary. My Lords, I was only going to mention the circumstances in reference to the Report of the Committee on the Companies Bill, but, curiously enough, only this morning I received this interesting document containing the speech that has been made about the Lord Chancellor's office. As it is an attack on the Lord Chancellor's office, and not on me personally, I thought it worth while to notice it. If it had been an attack on me personally I should have pursued my ordinary course and have taken no notice of it. I am not going to say what it is that the Lord Chancellor has to do. Lord Herschell described his duties with perfect accuracy, and I do not wish to add to his description; but for the sake of the much wider class who are anxious about the progress of this Committee I thought it was right to say how difficult it has been, with due regard to the administration of justice, to proceed more continuously and rapidly than we have done. I only hope that in another Session we shall be able to complete our labours and present a satisfactory result. I am obliged to your Lordships for allowing me to make this explanation, as f thought it duo to the public that they should know that the interests of commerce have not been lost sight of, and that the Committee are desirous, as soon as they can, of presenting their Report.

  BUSINESS OF THE HOUSE.
  Standing Order No. XXXIX. to be considered to-morrow, in order to its being suspended for that day's sitting.
PRIVATE BILL PROCEDURE (SCOTLAND) BILL.

  TELEPHONES.
  Messages to the Commons for Reports, etc., of Select Committees.
  House adjourned at 4.45.