LAND LAW (IRELAND) ACTS. (Hansard, 9 August 1898)

LORD CLONBROCK
My Lords, I beg to move for a Return showing, for the 12 months ended 30th November, 1897 (by counties), in respect of cases in which fair rents were fixed under the Land Law (Ireland) Acts by Assistant Commissioners, and in which applications for re-hearings were lodged and proceeded with, and in which court valuers reported what, in their opinion, should be the fair rent—

"I. The total number of such cases;

"II. The aggregate rental before the hearing by the Assistant Commissioners;

"III. The aggregate rental as fixed by the Assistant Commissioners;

"IV. The aggregate amount reported by tile court valuers as, in their opinion, the fair rent;

"V. The number of cases (in III.) in which the court valuers agreed with the fair rents fixed by the Assistant Commissioners, and the total amount of such fair rents;

"VI. The number of cases (in III.) in which the fair rents in the court valuers' reports exceeded the fair rents fixed by the Assistant Commissioners, and the aggregate amount of such rents, and of the difference;

"VII. The number of cases (in III.) in which the fair rents in the court valuers' reports were less than the fair rents fixed by the Assistant Commissioners, and the aggregate amount of such rents, and of the difference;

"VIII. The aggregate rental ultimately fixed on rehearing by the Land Commission;

"IX. The number of cases (in VIII.) in which the Land Commission fixed the fair rent at the figures in the court valuers' reports, and the aggregate amount of such rents;

"X. The number of cases (in VIII.) in which the fair rents fixed by the Land Commission exceeded the figures in the court valuers' reports, the aggregate amount of the rents so fixed, and of the difference;

"XI. The number of cases (in VIII.) in which the fair rents fixed by the Land Commission were less than the figures in the court valuers' reports, the aggregate amount of such rents, and of the difference."
When I moved for a somewhat similar Return to this a week ago the noble Earl [the Earl of Denbigh] who replied on behalf of the Govern- 624 ment made two objections to the Return I asked for. The first objection he made was that part of the information, sought for was already contained in the Report of the Land Commission, of which he was good enough to give me a copy at the time. That was with reference to the decisions in fair-rent cases come to by the Assistant Commissioners and the subsequent decisions of the Court of Re-hearing. The second objection he made was with reference to the other point on which I asked for information—namely, the Reports of the court valuers as to the fixing of fair rents. The noble Earl said that it was impossible to give a complete Return in the shape I asked for, inasmuch as a change had been introduced during the period I mentioned; that by instructions subsequently given to the court valuers they were ordered not to report as to the fair rent, but as to the letting value of the holdings in each case, and, therefore, the cases being different, the same comparison could not be instituted between their Reports and the decisions of the Assistant Commissioners, and of the Court of Re-hearing. As to the first objection raised by the noble Earl, I must remark that, in moving for the Return on the last occasion, my object was not to compare the findings of the Assistant Commissioners with those of the Court of Re-hearing. I was perfectly aware that these figures were to be found in the Report, but they did not answer the object I bad in view, which was to compare the Reports, of the court valuers with those of the Assistant Commissioners and the Court, of Re hearing. The noble Earl was perfectly accurate in saying that there had been an alteration in the manner in which the court valuers reported, but the Return I asked for could have been given for part of the time, and for the larger part, as the change was only introduced in December. I should have been glad to-have received it, on the principle that half a loaf is better than no bread. I then asked leave to amend my Motion, and the noble Earl stated very properly that if I did that he could not be expected to give an answer without notice. I have accordingly brought up the Motion in a different form, and I now ask for Returns for the 625 twelve months ending November last year. During that period there can be no doubt that the court valuers did report on the fair rent. In order to compare them properly with the decisions of the Assistant Commissioners and Court of Re-hearing, they must be printed together, and that is my reason for asking for this Return. It is a matter of great interest to others in Ireland besides landlords that this Return should be granted, in order that people can know exactly the position in which they stand in the matter of appeals. In the Report of the Fry Commission they deal severely enough with some of the Reports of the court valuers. They state that in several instances brought before their notice there was such "slavish copying" by the court valuers of the previous decisions of the Assistant Commissioners that arithmetical mistakes which appeared in one were reproduced in the other. On the other hand, I know a case to which no such exception could be taken where the court valuers gave an estimate of the fair rent differing materially from that of the Assistant Commissioners, and where the decision of the Court of Re-hearing differed again from that. As far as my present information goes that is an isolated case, but there may be more of them, and I think it would be only fair that the whole of the proceedings during the year should be stated, so that we may form a proper opinion upon them. If we find a disinclination on the part of the Land Commission to give this information, we shall be irresistibly driven to the conclusion that if the case I have mentioned is not an isolated one, it is, at any rate, a very rare one; for if they could show a decided variation between the Reports of the court valuers and the Assistant Commissioners they would be willing to allow them to be made public, especially in view of the statements contained in the Report of the Fry Commission. I "hope the Government will consider the importance of giving this Return, and agree to my Motion.

§ THE EARL OF DENBIGH
My Lords, the noble Lord is quite accurate in the remarks he made with regard to my answer the other day. I am sorry that I was not able to give him a full reply to 626 the Question he then asked. I said that if he would put the Question on the Paper in an amended form it would receive consideration. I did not promise him anything definite in the way of an answer, and I can only tell him now that the Irish Land Commissioners report that the preparation of the Return which the noble Lord asks for would involve a careful examination of the Papers in each of some 1,500 cases, and would considerably retard the work of their Department, while, at the same time, it would serve no useful purpose, since the figures would be most misleading, as in numerous cases the decisions in the re-hearings were based on evidence and circumstances which had not been taken into consideration by the court valuers in preparing their reports. As I pointed out to the noble Lord, full statistics with reference to the decisions of the Commissioners in the appeal cases appear in the annual Reports of their proceedings, and in the published Returns of the Commissioners, all of which are circulated as Parliamentary Papers. I regret to inform the noble Lord that, having regard to the foregoing objections raised by the Irish Land Commission, Her Majesty's Government are unable to consent to the Return he asks for.

LORD CLONBROCK
My Lords, I am very much disappointed with the answer of the noble Earl, and I cannot conceive that the labour of preparing these Returns would be so great as has been represented. It seems manifest that the Land Commissioners are afraid of publicity, and wish to conceal the action of their subordinates. I am surprised to find that Her Majesty's Government do not see this, but allow them to draw a veil over and screen from the light of day the effects of a system of which the Government have always maintained that they highly dir approve, and the introduction of which they so strenuously resisted when in Opposition. I have nothing further to do but to withdraw my Motion.