Lords Sitting of 5 August 1898

Preamble
THE LORD CHANCELLOR took his seat upon the Woolsack at a Quarter past Four of the clock.
PRIVATE BILL BUSINESS.
  HEYWOOD CORPORATION WATER BILL. [H.L.]
  Commons' Amendment considered, and agreed to.
  TODMORDEN CORPORATION WATER BILL. [H.L.]
  Commons' Amendments considered, and agreed to.
  WHITECHAPEL AND BOW RAILWAY BILL.
  Moved that Standing Orders Nos. 143 and 143A be considered in order to their being dispensed with in respect of the said Bill; agreed to; Bill read a third time with the Amendments; further Amendments made; Bill passed, and returned to the Commons.
  CARDIFF RAILWAY BILL.
  Reported from the Select Committee with Amendments.
  BOLTON, TURTON, AND WESTHOUGHTON EXTENSION BILL.
  Returned from the Commons with the Amendments agreed to.
  GLASGOW CORPORATION (SEWAGE, ETC.) BILL.
  Returned from the Commons with the Amendments agreed to.
  KNOTT END RAILWAY BILL.
  Returned from the Commons with the Amendments agreed to.
  RHYMNEY AND ABER VALLEYS GAS AND WATER BILL.
  Returned from the Commons with the Amendments agreed to.
  KINGSTOWN AND KINGSBRIDGE JUNCTION RAILWAY (ABANDONMENT) BILL. [H.L.]
  Returned from the Commons agreed to.
  MERSEY RAILWAY BILL. [H.L.]
  Returned from the Commons agreed to, with Amendments: The said Amendments considered, and agreed to.
  LOCAL GOVERNMENT PROVISIONAL ORDER (No. 10) BILL.
  Read third time (according to order), with the Amendments, and passed, and returned to the Commons.
RETURNS, REPORTS, ETC.
  COLONIES (ANNUAL).
  No. 231. Barbadoes: Annual Report for 1897.
  BOROUGH OF MAIDSTONE.
  Report of the Local Government Board on the epidemic of typhoid fever, 1897; with appendices.
  METROPOLITAN POOR LAW SCHOOLS.
  Report to the Local Government Board on the ventilation and warming in certain of the metropolitan poor law schools, by William Napier Shaw, M.A., F.R.S.
  LOCAL GOVERNMENT BOARD.
  Second Report of the Committee appointed by arrangement between the President of the Local Government Board and the Chancellor of the Exchequer to inquire into the sufficiency of the clerical staff and secretariat of the Local Government Board, having regard to the duties devolving on the Board, and into the existing divisions of the work, the salaries of the officers, and the, organisation of the Department generally, and to recommend what changes should be made in the existing arrangements.
  WORKHOUSE DIETARIES.
  Report of the Departmental Committee appointed by the President of the Local Government Board to inquire into the question of workhouse dietaries.
  REFORMATORY AND INDUSTRIAL SCHOOLS (GREAT BRITAIN).
  Forty-first Report, for the year 1897, of Her Majesty's Inspector of Reformatory and Industrial Schools.
  PRISONS (ENGLAND AND WALES).
  Report of the Commissioners of Prisons and the Directors of Convict Prisons, for the year ended 31st March, 1898.
  POLICE (METROPOLIS).
  Report of the Commissioner of Police of the Metropolis, for the year 1897.
  INEBRIATES ACTS, 1879 AND 1888.
  Eighteenth Report of the Inspector of Retreats under the Inebriates Acts, for the year 1897.

  STATISTICS.
  I. Statistical Abstract for the United Kingdom in each of the last 15 years, from 1883 to 1897: Forty-fifth Number.
  II. Statistical Abstract for the Colonial and other Possessions of the United Kingdom in each of the last 15 years, from 1883 to 1897: Thirty-fifth Number.

  BOILER EXPLOSIONS.
  Report to the Secretary of the Board of Trade upon the working, of the Boiler Explosions Acts, 1882 and 1890; with appendices (in continuation of Parliamentary Paper [C. —8630]).
  Presented (by command), and ordered to lie on the Table.

  LAND TRANSFER ACTS, 1875 AND 1897.
  Rules relating to land registry: Laid before the House (pursuant to Act), and ordered to lie on the Table.
PUBLIC BILLS.
  LIBRARIES (OFFENCES) BILL.
  Returned from the Commons with the Amendments agreed to.
  UNIVERSITIES AND COLLEGE ESTATES BILL.
  Returned from the Commons with the Amendments agreed to.
  EVIDENCE IN CRIMINAL CASES BILL. [H.L.]
  Returned from the Commons with the Amendments made by the Lords to the Amendments made by the Commons, agreed to.

  VACCINATION BILL.
  The Report of Amendments to the Vaccination Bill was received.
  On the order that the Bill be read a third time,
  THE EARL OF FEVERSHAM: My Lords, I regret that I do not see the noble Marquess at the head of the Government and the noble Lord (Lord Lister) who spoke on this subject yesterday in their places to-day, but I wish to call your Lordships' attention to two statements which were made, both by the noble Marquess and by Lord Lister. They stated that if your Lordships' House threw out the conscience clause the Bill would go back to the House of Commons, where the clause would be reinstated, and if, when the Bill is then returned to your Lordships, you insist on the omission of the clause, the Bill will be lost. That is to say, that we are to take the Bill, the whole Bill, and nothing but the Bill, or else the Bill will be lost. That is a serious matter. This House has, it is true, very little power as a legislative assembly, but we have the privilege—the ancient privilege—not yet dead, of revising the deliberations and the decisions of the other House of Parliament. But if, however, we are to be told that if we make a single Amendment in any Bill which has come up from the other House that Bill will be lost, and that the country is not to have all the benefits of the other clauses which are not struck out, then I maintain that the action of this House is rendered nugatory. It seems to me that it would be useless, under such circumstances, to go through the form of entering into the details of any Bill which may be sent up to your Lordships. Knowing the long and distinguished career of the noble Marquess at the head of the Government, and the manner in which he has from time to time maintained the privileges of this House, I cannot believe that he would wish to do anything which would in the least degree be derogatory to the dignity or privileges of this House. I believe that in the action we took last night we had the support of public opinion. I really think that the majority of the people of this country are with us, and would support us, in the elimination of that clause,
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  and I regret all the more, therefore, the position in which the intimation which was given by the noble Marquess at the head of the Government places this House. I hope that even now it is not too late to appeal to the Government whether some compromise cannot be arrived at between the decision of this House and the other House of Parliament.
  TEE LORD CHANCELLOR (The Earl of HALSBURY): My Lords, I think my noble Friend has entirely misunderstood what the noble Marquess at the head of the Government said when he referred to the possible action of the Commons on this Bill. What the noble Marquess was referring to was that if both Houses disagree on the same thing, the Bill ipso facto is killed. The noble Earl suggested that the noble Marquess had uttered something in the nature of a threat, but I think the noble Earl has entirely misunderstood what passed.
  LORD STANLEY OF ALDERLEY: My Lords, with the majority the Government have in the other House, it is useless for them to say that they could not pass this Bill without this clause. It would be suicidal on the part of the Government, after what has been said in the Press, and by the public on this subject, for them to persist in this clause. I think it is very unconstitutional for the Government to bring before this House at this late period of the Session a clause which was sprung upon their own supporters at the last moment in the other House.
  Question put.
  Bill read a third time, and passed.

  METROPOLITAN COMMONS BILL.
  LORD RATHMORE: My Lords, I beg to move that this Bill be read a second time. The Bill has the approval of the Board of Agriculture, and of the Commons Preservation Society. It has I assed all its stages in the other House without opposition, and I hope your

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  Lordships will be willing to Second Reading.
  Question put.
  Bill read a second time.

  LOCAL GOVERNMENT (IRELAND) BILL.
  On the Order for the consideration of Commons' Amendments to Lords' Amendments, and Commons' reasons for disagreeing to certain of the Lords' Amendments,
  THE LORD CHANCELLOR OF IRELAND (Lord ASHBOURNE): My Lords, I move that your Lordships agree with the Amendments made by the Commons.
  THE EARL OF CAMPERDOWN: My Lords, I should like to ask if it is according to custom to take a series of Amendments, and agree to them en bloc.
  THE LORD CHANCELLOR OF IRELAND: My Lords, I have no intention of introducing any new practice. The first is an Amendment with reference to malicious injuries, and all that was done in the House of Commons was to strike out the privilege Amendment with reference to the charge, and to substitute for that the restriction that the Act shall rot extend the application of the sections referred to of the Grand Juries Act, 1836, to any case except where the malicious act done was a crime punishable on indictment under the Malicious Damage Act, 1861. There has also been a moderate Amendment made in the clause with reference to ancient monuments, which does not in the slightest degree interfere with its effect or construction, although it gives a slightly wider aspect to it. Then there is an Amendment which carries out what was intended with reference to the constitution of guardians, and next comes an Amendment putting into better drafting form the Amendment which was moved by my noble Friend the Earl a Arran, and accepted by the Government. The Commons' Amendment does not substantially alter the meaning or intention of the noble Earl's Amendment. There are other Amendments of a more or less drafting character, which nearly carry
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  out what was intended, and I ask your Lordships to agree to those Amendments
  Question put.
  Amendments agreed to.
  THE LORD CHANCELLOR OF IRELAND: My Lords, the Commons disagree to the following Amendments—
  "Page 16, line 16, after ' council,' insert 'and in the case of the borough of Galway the Galway Town Improvement Commissioners."
  "Page 16, line 27, after borough,' insert 'and to the Galway Town Improvement Commissioners.'"
  "Page 93, line 19, after 'Cork,' insert ' Galway';"
  because they create a new rating area. The Commons consider that it is unnecessary to offer any further reason. As it is clear that the Amendments do set up a new rating authority, I move that your Lordships do not insist upon the Amendments to which the Commons disagree.
  Question put.
  Motion agreed to.

  METROPOLITAN COMMON POOR FUND BILL.
  House in Committee (according to order): Bill reported without Amendment: Standing Committee negatived; and Bill to be read a third time on Monday next.
  MERCHANT SHIPPING (MERCANTILE FUND) BILL.
  House in Committee (according to order): Bill reported without Amendment: Standing Committee negatived; and Bill to be read a third time on Monday next.
  TRUSTS (SCOTLAND) BILL.
  House in Committee (according to order): Bill reported without Amendment: Standing Committee negatived; and Bill to he read a third time on Monday next.
  CUSTOMS AND INLAND REVENUE BILL.
  Read third time (according to order), and passed.
  INDIA OFFICE (STORE DEPOT) BILL.
  Read third time (according to order), with the Amendment, and passed, and returned to the Commons.
  EXPIRING LAWS CONTINUANCE BILL.
  Read second time (according to order), and committed to a Committee of the Whole House on Monday next.

  NONCONFORMIST MARRIAGES (ATTENDANCE OF REGISTRARS) BILL.
  THE EARL OF SELBORNE: My Lords, I beg to move the Second Reading of this Bill. The present state of the law in respect to Nonconformists is not satisfactory to them. Curiously enough, a special exemption from the attendance of the registrar exists in the case of Quakers and of Jews, but in the case of all other Nonconformist bodies it is necessary that the registrar should be present at the marriage service. And, as a matter of fact, though I do not press this as a very substantial grievance, the registrar is not always available at the moment when convenient to the parties who wish to be married. The registrar of marriages has to hear the declaration of the parties, make out a certificate, and give what are called "the marriage lines." For 10 years or more this has been felt to be a serious grievance on the part of the Nonconformists, and many Bills have been introduced into the House of Commons dealing with this subject. Every one of those Bills has met with an untimely fate, for one reason or another, chiefly because they really did not meet all the difficulties and exigencies of the case. The ruling principle of all those Bills was that the Registrar-General should sanction certain ministers of chapels to act as registrars, but Nonconformist bodies generally objected to be pat under the Registrar-General for this purpose. Finally, a Committee was
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  appointed in 1893, and on their Report this Bill, as it comes to your Lordships' House, has been framed. I may say that the essential points to be borne in mind in dealing with this question are the legitimacy of the children, the validity of the marriage, the certainty of accurate registration, and easy identification of the parties present at a marriage as the attesting witnesses. The present Bill, in the form it was introduced into the House of Commons, did not fulfil these necessary conditions. It was introduced as a private Measure, and allowed what I may call miscellaneous officiation, and did not adequately safeguard registration. The Bill was taken up by the Government in the House of Commons and completely re-modelled. If it were not for that fact the Nonconformists of this country would still have had to wait a long time before they could get this, to them, real grievance removed. This Bill, which I am asking your Lordships to read a second time, is confined to buildings that are under the existing law licensed for the purpose of marriages. It provides that the trustees or governing bodies of any Nonconformist church or chapel, or, in the case of the Roman Catholic body, the bishop or vicar-general in whose diocese or district the chapel is situated, must authorise one or more persons in connection with such church or chapel to be responsible in the matter of these marriages. Such person must always be present on the occasion of a marriage; he must make the necessary entries; he must keep the proper register in duplicate, and every three months he must send one copy of that register to the Registar-General just as the rectors and vicars of the Church of England have to do in the case of church registers. All this is provided for in the Bill, and I think I may claim on behalf of the Government that they have provided a solution which, while safeguarding the extremely important matters I have referred to, will yet be the means of removing a real grievance which has long been felt by the Nonconformists. The vested interests of the present registrars as to the fees they receive now, for the work they do, have been provided for by acknowledging their vested interests on a reduced scale for 10 years, after which time there will be no fees paid to the registrars in respect of

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  marriages at which they are not present. If any persons who propose to be married in a Nonconformist church or chapel prefer to be married, under the existing law, in the presence of the registrar, they are entitled to do so. In asking the House to give this Bill a Second Reading I think you will allow me to say, on your behalf, that although the great majority of your Lordships belong to the Church of England, and are not Nonconformists, yet we are all equally glad to be able to cooperate with our Nonconformist fallow-countrymen in removing what has been to them a substantial grievance, and not subject them any longer to these civil ceremonies in the marriage service, which have been distasteful to them. This Bill has been re-modelled by the Government in the most sympathetic spirit towards the Nonconformists, and is, I believe, cordially accepted by them. I beg to move that the Bill be read a second time.
  THE BISHOP OF WINCHESTER: My Lords, as one of those who may represent, perhaps, the persons whose virtual monopoly is somewhat interfered with, by the extension of similar privileges to others, I should like to be allowed to say how cordially I welcome this Bill as based upon principles alike of perfect fairness, of ordinary common-sense, and of public policy. There is one clause which at present I do not clearly understand, and there is another which I have failed, after many attempts, to construe; but they are not points of principle, and I have no doubt they can be explained or amended in Committee. The Bill is a right and just one, and I am exceedingly thankful that it is now about to be added to the Statute Book.
  Question put.
  Bill read a second time.

  ELEMENTARY SCHOOL TEACHERS (SUPERANNUATION) BILL.
  Read first time; to be printed; and to be read a second time on Monday next: (The Lord Privy Seal [V. Cross]); and Standing Orders Nos. XXXIX. and XLV. to be considered in order to their being dispensed with. (No. 205.)

  PUBLIC WORKS LOANS BILL.
  Read first time; to be printed; and to be read a second time on Monday next: (The Marquess of Salisbury). (No. 206.)
  House adjourned at 5.