HL Deb 02 August 1898 vol 63 cc823-35
* THE EARL OF NORTHBROOK

My Lords, the last newspapers that arrived in England from India contained an account of a somewhat remarkable meeting that took place at Simla. That meeting was held at the United Service Institution at Simla, and it was called together to listen to a lecture given by Colonel Hutchinson on the recent campaign against the Afridis, and the lessons to be drawn from that campaign. The Viceroy was present, and the chair was taken by Sir Edwin Collen, the military member of the council of the Viceroy. There were present at that meeting the Lieutenant-Governor of the Punjaub, Sir James Westland, the Financial Member of the Council of the Governor General, and Sir Charles Nairn, the Acting Commander-in-Chief of the Army. I do not suppose that on any previous occasion there ever has been such an assembly of dignitaries at any meeting in India of that class. Colonel Hutchinson did not confine himself in his speech merely to the military operations, but he discussed the reasons which he supposed to have led to the outbreak of the Frontier tribes. He was followed by Mr. Thorburn, a Civil servant of considerable standing, who fills the important office of Financial Commissioner in the Punjaub—an appointment nearly next to that of Lieutenant-Governor of the province. Mr. Thorburn stated his objections to the recent policy on the Frontier, but I am not going to allude to what he said on that point, because I am satisfied, from the assurance given in the dispatch from the Secretary of State for India to the Viceroy, which was presented to Parliament, that there will be a gradual and, in my opinion, most salutary change in the recent policy on the Frontier. My object to-night is to allude to only one remark that was made by Mr. Thorburn. In the course of his speech, he declared that Frontier wars force on the Government "the wholesale impressment of man and beast throughout the Punjaub." He went on to say (I am reading from a report which appeared in the Simla News)— Impressment is, of course, only excusable from necessity, but as practised in the Punjaub, without discrimination, without system, and without organisation, it entails upon the unfortunate rural population tenfold more suffering than would be necessary with system and with organisation. In proof of what I say, the Deputy-Commissioners of the Punjaub impressed about 100,000 animals and 25,000 owners, although perhaps not more than one in five was sent to the front. That is a statement made in India, by Mr. Thorburn, and upon it I have to remark, in the first place, that Mr. Thorburn is probably the most competent authority in India to speak upon this matter, because, being Financial Commissioner, it is his duty to attend to the condition of the agricultural classes and watch over their welfare. Secondly, I have to remark that this statement made by Mr. Thorburn at Simla was not contradicted by the speakers who followed him at the meeting, and that those speakers included the Lieutenant-Governor of the Punjaub—who must have known all about the circumstances of the case—Sir James Westland, the financial member of the Council of the Governor General, and Sir Edwin Collen, the military member of the Council of the Governor General, who must also have had particular knowledge of the circumstances of the case. I fear, therefore, that the statement made by Mr. Thorburn is correct, although I should rejoice to hear that I am mistaken. I will assume, however, that it is correct, and that impressment on a large scale has taken place in the Punjaub, both of men and beasts. The question, therefore, that I have to ask tonight of the noble Lord the Under Secretary of State for India is, under what law does that impressment take place? Of course, my Lords, it is impossible that there has not been some legal warrant for the impressment of Her Majesty's subjects in the Punjaub and the forcible taking away of their property. I have no recollection of any such enactment, but that may be because during the time that I was in India we had no Frontier wars. If impressment is really necessary—which I should greatly question myself, because it appears to me that it is a mere matter of money—I cannot understand that men cannot be hired and animals cannot be bought for a campaign of the nature which we have recently undertaken; if it is absolutely essential to have this impressment, I do not think any of your Lordships would deny that a power of that kind should be exercised with the greatest care, that there should be regulations carefully drawn up to ensure that the burden is fairly apportioned among the people, and that it is not arbitrarily and unnecessarily imposed. Mr. Thorburn spoke very emphatically as to the defects of the present system. He asserted—and, as I said before, he has not been contradicted—that this impressment has taken place without discrimination, that it has taken place without system, and that it has taken place without organisation. This is a very grave charge to make against our administration, and calls for a prompt and stringent remedy if it is a true one. Now I ask, my Lords, that an account of any inquiry that has taken, place and the result of that inquiry shall be laid before Parliament, in order that we may hear what the real circumstances of the case are, and what has been done in order to remove the grievance. Colonel Hutchinson said in his account of the campaign that there were 20,000 camp followers, and if Mr. Thorburn is correct, of that number about a quarter have been impressed. The English Government about 15 years ago had to interfere with the administration of Egypt, where we found in existence the system called the corvée. The corvée was an impressments under which the natives of Egypt were obliged forcibly to assemble on the banks of the Nile in places where the Nile was abnormally high and likely to overflow its banks, in order to make dams. Under our administration that system, which was the subject of the gravest complaint by the people of Egypt, has been remedied, if not abolished, and to hear altogether abolished, and to hear that now we have actually carried on, not for the purpose of protecting the country, but for the purpose of wars which, in the opinion of many people of high authority, are both unnecessary and impolitic, a system of impressment in one of the most loyal and important provinces in British India, is, I consider a matter of grave humiliation to the country. I shall say nothing more upon the subject, but I shall be very glad to hear any explanation which the Under Secretary of State may be able to give upon the matter, and I sincerely trust that it may be a satisfactory one. At any rate, I trust that there will be no objection to the Motion of which I have given notice, and which is as follows— To call attention to a statement made by Mr. Thornburn, Financial Commissioner in the Punjaub, that 100,000 animals and 25,000 owners have been impressed in the Punjaub for the recent frontier operations; and to move an address for copies of any correspondence between the Government of India and the Secretary of State for India in Council, and also between the Government of India and the Lieutenant-Governor of the Punjaub, upon the subject.

THE UNDER SECRETARY OF STATE FOR INDIA (The Earl of ONSLOW)

The Notice of the noble Earl only appeared on the Paper of your Lordships' House this morning.

THE EARL OF NORTHBROOK

I gave notice to the Secretary of State yesterday.

THE EARL OF ONSLOW

I am aware of that, but the time has been too short to enable me to obtain any information from India in consequence of the inquiry of the roble Earl, and I can only say that no correspondence between the Government of India, and the Secretary of State for India in Council has taken place, nor have we received any correspondence which has taken place between the Government of India and the Lieutenant-Governor of the Punjaub upon the subject. I have no doubt that some such correspondence has taken place and probably in due course it will come to this country, but in the meanwhile we are without any information upon the subject, and we have only the statement contained in the Indian newspapers of Mr. Thorburn's speech, to which the noble Lord has referred. I am not able to say whether that statement is correct or incorrect, but, as the noble Lord has observed, Mr. Thorburn is in a position to obtain information upon the subject, and therefore I do not intend in any way to challenge its accuracy. But I should like to point out to your Lordships that the circumstances under which this statement was made were of home peculiarity. Mr. Thorburn is an eminent member of the Indian Civil Service. Not only is he that, but he is also chairman of the Committee which was appointed to inquire into this very subject, and if he entertains these views as to the system and the organisation of the impressment in the case of war, he had every opportunity of laying those views in an official manner before the Government of India in the Report of his Committee; but however that may be I do not think it is in accordance with the practice in this country, nor do I think it is in accordance with the practice in India, that a public servant such as Mr. Thorburn should, in a public manner, make what can only be looked upon as an attack upon the policy of the Government of which he is a servant. I believe Mr. Thorburn has expressed his regret and apology to the Government of India for the way in which this statement was laid before the public, and that apology has been accepted, and therefore the matter so far may be said to have ended. In regard to this particular question of impressment, the noble Earl will no doubt expect to hear that it is not done without proper legal sanction and authority, and there is in the Bengal Code a regulation dating back as far as 1800 and amended in 1825 under which these proceedings are taken. That Code has been applied to the whole of India, and I think that it is hedged in with, I must say, sufficient safeguards against abuse. It is the duty of a collector in case of war to call upon the landowners in the district through which the troops will have to pass, to furnish the necessary facilities and the necessary supplies, and in the event of their refusing to do so, or not exercising due diligence—the words are fails to exert himself for the due execution of the duties so assigned to him. —there is a power to impress upon him forthwith according to his position in life and the circumstances of the case. There is not a power entrusted to the sole authority of the collector, but there is in addition a power of appeal to the Board of Revenue in whose jurisdiction the board may be constituted, so that if there is ample authority for impressment, there is ample room for appeal if the persons are dissatisfied with the action of the collector. In this country we, fortunately, in this generation at least, have no need for any of those greater sacrifices which have to be imposed upon countries when they are at war; but I think that the noble Earl will agree with me that even in England there is a power to impress into the service for the purposes of war the horses and the animals of private individuals, and in that respect the people of India are, excepting for the fact that wars there are of undoubtedly more frequent occurrence, not in a specially worse position than the people of this country. The noble Earl compared the system of impressment with the system of the corvée in Egypt. The system of the corvée is imposed, not for the purposes of war, when the expenses are such that private individuals have to make very large sacrifices, but it was imposed for the purpose of preventing the overflow of the Nile, and I do not think that the conditions are at all upon the same footing. I know that this impressment has been made use of upon many previous occasions, and as recently as the expedition to Chitral. The noble Earl says that it would be quite possible to obtain the necessary animals and drivers without the system, but it is asserted that the only arrangement which the native understands is the system of compulsory im- pressment, and he is obliged on these occasions, although, of course, no one would wish to put impressment into force excepting under the stress and circumstances of war, to sacrifice himself upon the altar of duty to his country, and to accept double rates of hire for so doing. The noble Earl is, of course, aware that full provision is made for compensation in these cases, and that every precaution is taken by the Government of India to prevent any system of peculation on the part of the subordinate officials. In the Chitral Expedition there was an officer in charge of every 500 animals, so as to prevent any possibility of interference with the pay of the men who are impressed. I am sorry that I am unable to give the noble Earl more information than this, but, as I have already informed your Lordships, the time has been too short to obtain it, and we have not received from India any of the documents which the noble Earl asks us to lay upon the Table of the House.

THE EARL OF KIMBERLEY

I understand that the Simla Gazette, in which this account of the meeting is given which is brought before the House, is dated the 28th June, and the occasion was certainly a very remarkable one. I am not going to discuss what took place on that occasion, but I agree with the noble Lord who has just spoken, that the criticisms upon the Government of India which were passed by Government officials upon that occasion, were of the character of a very unusual proceeding, and one which I gather from the noble Earl, is not approved by the Government, and for which one gentleman has tendered an apology, which has been accepted. I am glad to hear that, because, although open criticism in an assembly which is brought toether for that purpose is very salutary, it is not, in my opinion, desirable that Government officials should undertake at a meeting of that kind to criticise the proceedings of the Government they serve. I gather, therefore, from what the noble Earl said, that the attention of the Secretary of State for India was directed to what took place on that occasion, and I cannot help expressing my surprise that inasmuch ns no one could have read the proceedings without observing this remarkable statement on the part of Mr. Thorburn, no step appears to have been taken to obtain information on the subject; and certainly it is not an unusual thing for the Indian Office to study the newspapers. On the contrary, it is one of the ordinary duties which is performed there, and a very useful one, and I should have thought that when a statement of this kind was made which is of a very serious character, that no time would be lost in an inquiry by the Government into the circumstances of the case, and asking for an explanation. That was not done, and therefore all that we can do is to wait until the explanations, which will no doubt be asked for, are here, and then we shall be better able to judge of the whole matter.

THE SECRETARY OF STATE FOR WAR

It is unfortunate that this discussion should have taken place at a time when we are still in some doubt as to the precise facts. The noble Earl who has just spoken complains of delay on the part of the India Office in ascertaining these facts.

THE EARL OF KIMBERLEY

They have done nothing; they have not only delayed—they have done nothing.

THE SECRETARY OF STATE FOR WAR

The speech in which the episode referred to by the noble Earl below the Gangway took place, was delivered on the 28th June.

THE EARL OF KIMBERLEY

That is the newspaper report.

SECRETARY OF STATE FOR WAR

It is, therefore, clear that the full report of that speech could never have been in our hands at this end by now. The telegraphic summary did not contain any reference to Mr. Thorburn's attack upon the transport arrangements. I think we must all agree with the noble Earl that anything in the nature of forced or impressed transport by human beings is odious, and should, if possible, be avoided, and I do not think there is any result which has followed from the extension of British rule in different parts of the world more satisfactory than the disappearance of anything of the nature of a corvée, such as that which used to obtain in Egypt. But in time of war it is absolutely impossible that we should not in the last resort rely upon impressed service of some kind or another. And, as a matter of fact, there has been no time in tie history of India when the Government did not resort to the impressment of labour, either of animals or of human beings. It cannot be said that the idea of compulsion is one to which the people of India are not accustomed; it might, perhaps, be said that they have not always been accustomed to be paid, as they now are, on a most liberal scale whenever their animals were taken from them, and, as the Under Secretary of State said, we, in this country, take exactly the same power. There is the ordinary power, to which regard is had in time of peace, and there are the more stringent powers which can be resorted to in what I think is spoken of as a case of emergency. Under the Army Act, section 112, Where an emergency has arisen, a general or field officer may require the justices to provide carriages and horses of every description, subject to payment, the differences as to which are to be determined by the county court judge. If that is the law in the United Kingdom we should not be too much shocked if we find that similar provisions exist in regard to India. The practice in India, as I understand it, is, in the first instance, the local officers endeavour to obtain the necessary transport animals by hire, and it is only failing hire that compulsion is resorted to; and I think it is must be perfectly evident that, in the 100,000 animals referred to in Mr. Thorburn's speech, a very large number probably were obtained by arrangement by hire from the owners, but that is one of the facts which we shall ascertain by-and-bye. I quite agree that every effort should be made to mitigate the hardships of impressment of this kind. You can do that in several ways. One is by using very great care in the choice of your agents, because there is this to be remembered, that in an Eastern country, however liberal the terms offered by the Government may be, there is always a great risk that in the arrangements actually made the minor local officers, who are not always persons of a very high character, may be dirven to resort to extortion in one form or another. Therefore that is one way in which the evil may be minimised. Another way is by doing what I understand the Government of India has recently endeavoured to do, and that is to maintain in time of peace a considerable reserve of transport animals. But of course the moment comes when you get to the end of your reserve, and when you have to fall back upon hire, either voluntary or compulsory. I know—and I speak from experience—that at different times the Government of India has sought to place these arrangements for impressing transport upon a different and better footing; and I believe I am correct in saying that, under Lord Elgin's Government, a Committee sat in the year 1896 or 1897, of which this same Mr. Thorburn was the president, but until now the proposals which have been made, whether by that Committee or by other persons who have inquired into the matter on former occastons, have been proved to be impracticable and not desirable for adoption, and that is how the matter stands at this moment. I think, as I said at first, we must all regret the inconvenience and possibly the suffering which is occasioned by this system of impressment, but I believe that the terms offered by the Government are invariably liberal, and that to a large proportion, at all events, of the owners of transport animals the arrangement is a very profitable one, and one to which they are extremely glad to be parties.

* THE EARL OF NORTHBROOK

I quite understand what has fallen from the noble Lord the Under Secretary of State, that the time was very short in order to get the information necessary to explain what I have brought before your Lordships; but after I had given notice to the Secretary of State of my intention to put the question, he did not ask me to postpone it, which I should otherwise have done. The regulation quoted by the Under Secretary of State does not appear to me to cover the ground with respect to this impressment, but I understand from the noble Earl that some later regulation has been issued upon the subject, and I hope that he will not object to the production to Parliament of this new regulation, under which the impressment of men and animals is now carried on in India. I cannot conceive that there can be any objection, at at any rate, to the production of that regulation. The noble Marquess said that the same power exists in this country as that which has been used in India, but I think he must have forgotten that the subject to which I alluded was not specifically the impressment of animals, although I mentioned that fact, but the impressment of 25,000 men—and I doubt whether there is any power existing in this country for the impressment of 25,000 men for any purpose connected with war—and if it is necessary to exercise such an extreme power as that in India, I take it that there would be some authority——

THE SECRETARY OF STATE FOR WAR

I would venture to ask the noble Earl to be careful, and quite sure that these 25,000 men were compulsorily impressed. It is perfectly clear that they could not all be compulsorily impressed. The large majority, probably, were hired with their animals. I merely ask the noble Earl to suspend judgment upon that point.

* THE EARL OF NORTHBROOK

I exercise no judgment. I gave a statement that 25,000 men were impressed, and that statement was not denied on the spot by persons perfectly competent to deny the statement. I do not assume it is true. I am only asking for inquiry, and asking that the regulation should be laid before Parliament. I do not think I am too bold in asking that, and I trust that the noble Earl will promise that when the information does arrive from India, and the correspondence between the Government of India and the Secretary of State for India in Council, and also between the Government of India and the Lieutenant-Governor of the Punjaub, it will be laid before Parliament, in order that we shall know what has actually taken place upon this matter. I was sorry to hear the noble Marquess trying to depreciate the real seriousness of this question. It does seem to me to be a matter of the greatest importance; although I do not deny that there may be cases in which such a power must be used, I should be very sorry to deny the possibility, and I should very much doubt whether the circumstances under which it has been used were such as to justify the exercise of such a power. I hope the noble Earl will allow me to amend my Motion by adding, And the regulations under which the impressment of men and animals is now carried on in India.

THE EARL OF ONSLOW

I am not able to give any promise to the noble Earl that these papers, when they come home, will be laid upon the Table of Parliament, but I will draw the Secretary of State's attention to it, and when they arrive the matter shall receive consideration. With regard to the actual regulation under which this impressment takes place, we will take care that it is ascertained what the exact regulation is. Those that the noble Earl has in his hand are the regulations of Bengal, but I believe they are the same, if not identical, in the Punjaub; and if it is in accordance with the practice of Parliament, those regulations shall be laid on the Table with those already published.

THE EARL OF KIMBERLEY

I did not suppose that the documents were in our possession here. It has certainly been my experience, very common indeed, to lay documents which are accessible upon the Table of the House. For the convenience of the House, the noble Earl will probably consider it when the question arises, and I should think he would find that, if the correspondence is laid on the Table, there will be no difficulty in laying the regulations also.

* THE EARL OF NORTHBROOK

Will not the noble Earl agree to my Motion for the production of the regulations?

THE EARL OF ONSLOW

I will present them if I find it possible.

* THE EARL OF NORTHBROOK

In a matter of this sort, if the Government refuses to lay before Parliament the law under which this power is exercised, I consider it to be a very considerable abuse of their prerogative.

THE EARL OF ONSLOW

If the noble Earl will not press the Motion, I will make inquiries, and if the documents are material, they will be laid on the Table.

* THE EARL OF NORTHBROOK

That satisfies me entirely, because they cannot help being material, as they are the law under which this grave power has been exercised.

Motion, by leave, withdrawn.