Lords Sitting of 4 March 1897

LORD FARNHAM (CLAIM TO VOTE FOR REPRESENTATIVE PEERS FOR IRELAND).
Ordered and directed, That a Certificate be sent by the Clerk of the Parliaments to the Clerk of the Crown in Ireland, stating that the Lord Chancellor of the United Kingdom has reported to the House of Lords that the right of the Lord Farnham to vote at the elections of Representative Peers for Ireland has been established to the satisfaction of him the said Lord Chancellor; and that the House of Lords has ordered such Report to be sent to the said Clerk of the Crown in Ireland; and it is hereby also ordered, That the said Report of the said Lord Chancellor be sent to the Clerk of the Crown in Ireland.
The Viscount Gough sat first in Parliament after the death of his father.
THOMPSON'S DIVORCE BILL [H.L.]
House in Committee (according to order). Bill reported without Amendment. Standing Committee negatived: Bill to be read 3a To-morrow.

RETIREMENT OF VESTRYMEN AND AUDITORS (LONDON) BILL [H.L.]
LORD MONKSWELL, in moving the Second Reading of this Bill, said the Measure passed their Lordships' House last year, but was not equally fortunate in the other House. It was based on the principle that there might be too much of a good tiling. No doubt it was a good thing for the ratepayers of London to have occasionally an opportunity of recording their votes, but most people thought that at present there were too many opportunities of that kind given to the ratepayers. There were elections for
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the London County Council, the School Board, the Board of Guardians and the Vestry. The suggestion of the Bill was that the law with regard to Vestry elections should be assimilated to that now in force in respect of the election of Guardians. At present one-third of the vestrymen went out every year, and the consequence was that every year there was the election of a certain number of vestrymen. Guardians, however, had been empowered to petition the County Council to be allowed to have their elections triennially instead of annually, and every Board throughout the metropolis had availed themselves of the permission, and now Guardians were elected once in three years instead of annually. The Bill proposed that any Vestry might petition the London County Council that their elections should be held triennially, that the members should all go out together every three years instead of one-third of them annually. No doubt the London County Council would be perfectly ready to grant any request of that kind that might be made to them. He begged to move the Second Reading of the Bill.
LORD HARRISsaid the Bill was practically in the same form in which it left their Lordships' House last year, and the Local Government Board had no objection to its proceeding.
Bill read a Second time, and committed to a Committee of the Whole House To-morrow.

LAND TRANSFER BILL [H.L.]
THE LORD CHANCELLOR (LORD HALSBURY), in moving "That this Bill be now read a Second time," said: This Bill is in substance the same as those which have so frequently passed this House. Substantially the same Bill has been read a Second time in the other House without a Division. The only point which seems to require explanation at this stage is why the Bill is not word for word the same as on previous occasions. It may be remembered that the late Government, after passing the Bill through this House, and reading it a Second time in the other House without a Division, referred it to a Select Committee in order (at the

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request of the solicitors) to take evidence on the subject. The solicitors' evidence was taken; and events afterwards happened which stayed all further proceedings. I have thought it desirable to meet at once the criticisms to which my learned Friend's Bill was subjected by the solicitors before the Select Committee, and I think it will be found that every defect which was pointed out in the existing Land Transfer Act has been removed. The Bill now stands in this position. There is one quarter, and one only, from which opposition to the Measure has been experienced. I have taken the most prompt and unreserved steps to disarm that opposition as far as the system to which the Bill applies is concerned. Only one point remains—namely, the principle of compulsion; not compulsion any longer for a system open to objection, but for a system amended so as to have the approval of the objectors. On that point also I have gone as far as possible. The scheme proposed by the Bill is to proceed by the most gradual steps, and to act in a limited area to begin with, and only to proceed by the light of experience, and after full notice to any district likely to be affected. I cannot but hope that my endeavours to reconcile the only objectors to this Measure will be met in a similar spirit, and that we may not be reduced in another Session to deal with the subject in a controversial manner. We are sometimes charged with want of speed as law reformers, but, in truth, such of us as desire reforms of this kind are often surprised that we cannot obtain more assistance in passing our Measures from the lay classes who are oppressed by the unreformed procedure. I ought not to conclude without calling attention to the Report on the system of land transfer in other countries, which was laid on the Table last Session, and which shows with what ease and success the registration of title is made use of in a large part of the world. At this stage I have no more to say than that the matters contained in the Bill are practically set forth in the memorandum prefixed to the Bill, and to ask your Lordships to give the Bill a Second Beading.
*LORD TURINGsaid it was now more than 40 years since he was first engaged in land transfer. This Bill would complete the edifice, it would make land
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transfer easy and feasible, and he trusted the House would read it a Second time. He could not imagine any objection to the Measure. With respect to compulsion, he admitted that some 20 years ago the late Lord Cairns and himself, when preparing a Bill, thought compulsion was not necessary, because they believed that the common sense of landowners would lead them to register. He was aware it was often asked of lawyers why they did not carry land transfer into practical effect, but he assured those who put such a question that no effort had been spared, especially by successive Lord Chancellors, to make the system of land transfer complete and satisfactory. He hoped their Lordships would pass the Bill, which, he was confident, would do more to relieve depressed landlords than those ambitious schemes which were so much talked about and pressed forward. ["Hear, hear!"]
LORD HERSCHELLsaid that this was substantially the same Bill that had been introduced on several occasions. He had so often expressed his views upon the subject that he would not do more now than, express the hope that the Bill would ultimately pass into law. ["Hear, hear!"]
THE EARL OF KIMBERLEYsaid he was profoundly convinced that there was perhaps nothing more required by owners of land than an efficient system of land transfer. Those who would look at the reports which had come from other countries would find that not only was there a cheap, efficient, and speedy system there, but also that it had been found that no danger had arisen from the Acts. In these circumstances he most sincerely hoped that this Bill, or, at all events, some other efficient Bill, would pass through Parliament.
Read 2a (according to Order), and committed to a Committee of the Whole House.

IRISH MAILS.
*THE EARL OF BELMORErose to ask the Postmaster General whether, when the accelerated mail service to Ireland should have come into operation, whereby the mails then, due at Dundalk about 8 a.m., were expected to be due there before 7.30 a.m., provision would be made for forwarding the mails for Enniskillen, Cavan,

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and other places in the north-west of Ire-bind, so as to do away with their detention at Dundalk which at present existed, and which would be otherwise considerably aggravated. He said he believed that in about a month's time the new accelerated mail service between tins country and Ireland would come into force, and that about an hour would be gained between London and Dublin, about 25 minutes, he understood, upon this side, and about 35 minutes in the sea passage. At present the mails going to the north of Ireland left the Dublin Station of the Great Northern Railway of Ireland at a quarter before seven, and they were carried direct to Belfast and Londonderry, and certain towns between those places and Dublin. The mails which went in the direction of the north-west went by a branch line from Dundalk, formerly called the Irish North Western Railway, which was now a branch of the main system of the Great Northern of Ireland, and were detained nearly an hour at Dundalk, and then they went on by a stopping train, called the boat train, as it was connected with the steamer from Greenore to Holyhead. Under the altered system the mails would arrive at 26 minutes after seven, instead of a little after eight. Unless some change were made by the Post Office, the mails to the north-west would be delayed between an hour and an hour and a-half. As regarded Enniskillen and Cavan, which were both about the same distance from Dundalk, the train reached the former at 11.25, and the latter about 11.20. The time left for answering letters was about half an hour, but under the new system, if the mails could be sent off at once, they would have about three hours. He had been in private communication with the manager of the Great Northern, who was an old friend, and he found it was impossible to interfere with the nine o'clock train from Dundalk, owing to its being in connection with Greenore, and necessary for the traffic from Newry and places north of Dundalk. There could be no acceleration of that train; and the only remedy was to put on an extra train. That was a question of terms with the Post Office. All the
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business people in that part of the country were very anxious that that should be done, and, therefore, he asked the noble Duke if he could see his way to approach the Great Northern so that the extra train might be put on?
THE POSTMASTER GENERAL (The DIKE of NORFOLK): The point raised by the noble Earl is only one point in a larger scheme for the acceleration of the mails which is at present engaging earnest attention, and I feel I cannot de more than read to him the answer I have prepared. The matter referred to is being considered in connection with the revision of the Irish day mail services consequent on the acceleration of the mail service between England and Ireland. I shall not fail to place before the railway company the strong desire that exists for improvement, in the hope that some arrangement may be found to be practicable. I am glad to hear that the noble Earl is on terms of friendship with the general manager of the Great Northern of Ireland, and I trust that pressure will be made use of. I trust, also, that with the efforts to give every facility, those who have influence will not be slow to point out that it will be to their own interest that the companies should do everything they can to carry out this acceleration.
VISCOUNT CLIFDEN: Can the noble Duke tell us when the general scheme of acceleration will come into force?
THE DIKE OF NORFOLK: On the 1st of April.

WORKING MEN'S DWELLINGS BILL [H.L.]
A Bill to provide facilities for the acquisition by working men of their own dwellings—was presented by the Lord Norton, for the Earl Vane (M. Londonderry); Read 1a; to be printed; and to be read 2a on Tuesday next. (No. 24.)
House adjourned at Ten minutes before Five o'clock, till To-morrow, a Quarter-past Ten o'clock,