§ LORD LOCHasked whether Her Majesty's Government were yet in a position, upwards of 18 months having elapsed since the invasion of the Transvaal by the forces of the South African Chartered Company, to inform the House if it was the intention of the Government to introduce any alteration in the administrative system of the countries, both south and north of the Zambesi, within the area of the South Africa Company's charter; and, to enable the House to have a full knowledge of the position, whether the Government would lay on tine Table of the House any Reports that 1215 might have been received from Colonel Sir Richard Martin with respect to the present and past manner in which the South Africa Chartered Company had conducted the government of those countries, and also any remarks Earl Grey might have made on any such Reports. The noble Lord said he did not expect nor desire that any answer that might be given him should enter into details with regard to what the future administration should be, but what he was anxious to obtain was an assurance that it was the intention to amend the administration of these countries so that Imperial control should be able to be exercised more strictly than it had been in the past. He had no desire whatever to attack the Chartered Company. They had, he considered, done great service in the past for this country in the manner in which they had extended and added great provinces to the Empire. He thought, however, it was desirable, and it was expected both amongst the English and the Dutch in South Africa, that a greater control should in future be exercised by the Imperial power over the management and administrative authority of the company. It was neither his desire, nor was it in the public interest, that any interference should take place with regard to the commercial and other interests of the company, but they should extend those interests under proper supervision, and he trusted that in the consideration the Government might give to this question, the interests of the company might be preserved by having the power of representation upon the council or legislative body which, he presumed, would be continued in those countries. At the same time the Government should appoint an administrator entirely independent of all local influence and control, so that they might be safeguarded in future, and provided the company was given a proper and sufficiently large voice in the administration of the country through having nominees on the council, he thought such a proposal as he suggested would meet with general approval, not only throughout the South African colonies, but in Mashonaland and Matabeleland themselves. He believed there was a general desire for this representation, the Crown having power to put nominees on the council. It was understood that Mr. Rhodes would 1216 be deprived of all authority and power when he was removed from the directorate of the company, but it would be noticed he had recently been holding meetings with the great chiefs at Bulawayo, and discussing very important questions, as, for instance, that of forced labour. There was considerable difference of opinion as to what forced labour was. It was held by some that labour was only forced when men were compelled at the point of the bayonet to work for wages; and when an agreement was entered into with the chief to supply men and payment was made, that was not forced labour. The distinction was a very narrow one, and within his own experience of South Africa he had had to check the sysem of applying to a chief for the supply of labour, because upon the chief hesitating to do this, action was taken to compel the chief to supply the labour required. That, he considered, was as much forced labour as if men were forced at bayonet point to work. Here was an additional reason why the administrator of this great country should be entirely independent of all control that might be exercised upon him if connected with the company. He hoped Her Majesty's Government would be able to give an assurance that this question would receive their early attention, and that the administration of these vast territories would be brought under the more direct control of the Imperial power, acting, whoever might be the administrator appointed for the purpose, under the High Commissioner.
§ THE PRIME MINISTER (the Marquess of SALISBURY)My noble Friend who represents the Colonial Office is not in his place, and I can give to the noble Lord only a very summary answer, I am afraid, to the questions he has addressed to us. He will have observed that it was stated last night by the Colonial Secretary that there is no intention of withdrawing the charter of the South Africa Company, but that there were certain modifications it would be necessary to introduce into its substance and working. So far as that we can safely go, and that is about as much as I think it would be possible under the circumstances in either House to state. Clearly the measures to be taken cannot, I think, with any propriety or expediency be explained in either House before they are 1217 actually taken. Therefore I am not able to go into any of the details into which the noble Lord invites me. I am aware of the extreme difficulty of the particular question he has specially dwelt upon; it is a Question which is always the difficulty with all who have to deal with semi-civilised or uncivilised, and especially African tribes. But I cannot do more than give an undertaking, which the noble Lord invites me to give, and naturally expects me to give, that in dealing with the question we shall have the greatest possible regard to the interests of the inhabitants and the principles upon which it has been the habit of the British Government to administer territories of this kind. The question presents difficulties and diversities in every part of Africa, and any hope we have of solving it with Measures which will not produce disturbances and arrest of the progress of civilisation must depend on the care, judgment, and circumspection exercised, and I do not think their effective consummation would be assisted by discussing beforehand the details of measures that are to be adopted. There are, as we well know, very constant, though not easily intelligible channels of communication between this country and even the least cultivated of the chiefs with whom we have to deal; therefore, I am afraid we are obliged to preserve a certain amount of reticence which at another period of our history it was not thought necessary to adopt. I can only assure the noble Lord that the subject to which he has alluded engages the anxious attention of the Colonial Office, and that part of Africa in which he is interested does not yield to other parts of Africa in the enormous increase of the solicitude the difficulties of the problem have imposed on all European Governments, and especially of the Government of this country, in South Africa.
THE EARL OF KIMBERLEYsaid the noble Lord had not answered the Question in reference to Papers. He believed they had been laid on the Table in the other House.
§ THE PRIME MINISTEROf course, they will he laid on the Table of this House, and any Papers we can produce, but I cannot say beforehand what Papers we shall be able to present.