Lords Sitting of 19 July 1897

LORD KENSINGTON.
Petition of William, Lord Kensington, in the Peerage of Ireland, claiming a right to vote at the elections of Representative Peers for Ireland; Read, and referred to the Lord Chancellor to consider and report thereupon to the House.

PARISH COUNCILS (SCOTLAND) (CASUAL VACANCIES) BILL.
*THE EARL OF LAUDERDALE, in moving the Second Reading of this Bill, remarked that the Bill was a short one, and had passed the House of Commons without opposition. It applied to Parish Councils in Scotland consisting of burghal and landward members, and the object of the Bill was to alter the law as regarded the filling up of casual vacancies as they occurred in Councils so constituted. When a casual vacancy occurred, the burghal and landward members both voted to fill it up. The Bill would only permit the members of each section to vote in filling up a vacancy occurring in that section. The other day a vacancy occurred in a landward parish, but the burghal members outnumbering the others filled up the vacancy against the wishes of the landward members. It was to remedy a practical inconvenience of this sort that the Bill had been introduced.
*THE SECRETARY FOR SCOTLAND (Lord BALFOUR)said he did not rise to offer any opposition to the Bill. It was no doubt true that it passed through all its stages in another place without Amendment, but he understood it was passed through rapidly at a time when it was unexpected to be reached, or notice of opposition to it would have been given. As far as the Government were concerned, lie could not consent to the first sub-section of the first clause of the Bill, and it would be his duty at a- subsequent stage to move that that sub-section be struck out of the Bill. In the instance of
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inconvenience alluded to, the burgher members no doubt stretched their powers. The Landward Committee had distinct functions and interests separate from those represented by the burgher members, and, while it was reasonable that the Landward Committee should be filled up by landward members only, it was not reasonable that a vacancy among the burgher members should be filled up only by the burgher representatives. For this reason the burg-her representatives had no separate action apart from the Landward Committee as the Landward Committee had from the burgher representatives. As no practical inconvenience had occurred the other way, there was no cause for the change proposed in the first sub-section of the Bill. On the other hand, the Bill, if passed in the form in which it stood, would possibly cause grave inconvenience in 20 or 25 parishes in a way which, if the Amendment which he would be obliged to propose at a subsequent stage was resisted, he would explain more fully.
LORD TWEEDMOUTHagreed that exceptional powers should not be given to the burgher members. If it was impossible to give reciprocal powers to the landward and burgher members, it was not desirable that any change should be made in the law at all. He did not oppose the Second Reading, but should the change proposed be brought forward in Committee he should oppose the future stages of the Bill.
Read 2a (according to Order), and committed to a Committee of the Whole House on Thursday next.

VERMINOUS PERSONS BILL.
On the Motion to go into Committee on this Bill,
*LORD BALFOURremarked that if the Bill was meant to apply to Scotland the machinery of the Bill as it stood was unsuited for the purpose. It was not for him to- suggest that there were any persons in Scotland to whom the Bill would be applicable. But if the Bill was meant to apply to Scotland it would have to be amended. He would be willing to suggest to the noble Lord the form of the Amendments.
THE LORD CHANCELLOR (Lord HALSBURY)asked whether the noble Earl (Lord Stamford) in charge of the Bill hail taken any steps to identify the fund out of which the expenses of working the Act wore to come? He had himself received a great many representations from various parts of the country complaining that there was no such identification, and fearing that the expense under the Act would fall upon them. There was a clause about the local authority, but that did not solve the question.
THE EARL OF STAMFORDreplied that he had made inquiries of the Local Government Board, and no difficulty was apprehended there. In the case of rural authorities the cost would be met out of the general purposes rate, and in the case of other authorities it would come out of the general fund.
THE EARL OF KIMBERLEYsaid the Local Government Board appeared to be satisfied, but it seemed to him that there should be a provision to charge the cast of administering the Act on the common fund.
Considered in Commiteee (according to Order); reported without Amendment; and re-committed to the Standing Committee.

COPYRIGHT (AMENDMENT) BILL [H.L.]
On the Motion to go into Committee on this Bill,
*LORD MONKSWELLasked to be allowed to say a few words as to the proceedings of the Select Committee to. which the Bill was referred. The Benches opposite were represented by Lord Knutsford, Lord Pirbright, Lord Hatherton, and Lord Tennyson; Lord Hobhouse, Lord Farmer, Lord Turing, and Lord Welby represented that side. The Committee sat several clays, examined several witnesses and went into the subject carefully. The first point which they devoted a great deal of attention to was that of translation. It was absolutely necessary to amend the law with regard to translation. It was now in a sad state of confusion. Translations into foreign tongues were dealt with under the Berne Convention and under
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the International Copyright Act. But as to translations into Hindustani, Welsh, Gaelic, and other tongues current within the British dominions the law was in a doubtful state indeed. With regard to this, he could not do better than quote from the evidence of Mr. Daldy, one of the Commissioners of 1878, and who was now, and had been for many years, honorary secretary of the Copyright Association,—
"Lord Thring—In answer to the chairman you said, as I understand, that there was a difficulty about the law of translation in England as compared with a book translated in France?—The difficulty arises from the confusion of the law. The Chairman.—A doubt as to the law?—Yes. Lord Thring.—Would you explain that a little?—With pleasure. Under the A ct of 1842 there is no protection whatever for translations in England. Under the Berne Convention we are to have protection for translations of English works if they are published in other countries, but we have nothing giving protection for translations published within the British dominions, and such a case has occurred."
Lord Thring then asked, "Will you put a concrete case?" The answer was:—
"A concrete case occurred some years ago in India. Your Lordships probably are acquainted with the name of 'Todhunter's Arithmetic.' That was translated into an Indian language, and published there and went through some 20 editions. The publishers, on behalf of the proprietors, tried to stop it. but they found by the decision of the Judge, which was a righteous decision according to the law, that they could not stop it. They could have stopped it if it had been published in Italy or France or Germany, but not when it was published within our own dominions."
It was perfectly certain, therefore, that the matter of translation ought to be dealt with as soon as possible, and the promoters of the Bill proposed to deal with it by as was proposed in the original Bill, the absolute right during the whole period of the copyright to prevent unauthorised translations. An endeavour had been made to lighten the Bill so that it might be got through their Lordships' House this Session, and it dealt only with those subjects which were most pressing and least contentious. All reference to newspaper copyright had been struck out. With regard to magazine copyright, it was proposed to make it retrospective, but as there was a difference of opinion as to that, the

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clause in the Bill making the copyright retrospective had been omitted. With regard to lectures the Bill had also been considerably lightened. The great point on which. The Committee wished to insist was that copyright should be given not only in lectures when published in a Look, but when delivered, and that they hail tried to effect by the Bill. It was further suggested in the original Bill that the law should be altered so as to give copyright, which did not now exist, to lectures delivered in endowed buildings. The Select Committee were on the whole favourable to that proposition, but at the same time they recognised that any alteration of the law to effect that must seriously affect very considerable interests, and they thought it was not desirable, without taking a great deal of evidence mid going into the matter very thoroughly, to recommend such an alteration in the law, consequently they had inserted in the amended Bill a proviso setting up again the provision that now existed, not allowing copyright to lectures in endowed buildings. For the present it had been decided not to propose any change in the law with regard to the difficult and thorny question of registration. Another alteration had been made which he thought would commend itself to their Lordships. The principal Act of 1842 now applied to all British possessions unless by Order in Council they should be exempted either from the whole Act or part of it. It was proposed in the amended Bill to give the British possessions much greater freedom of action by declaring that the Act, if it passed, should not run in any of the British possessions unless they themselves asked either for the whole or part of it. The net result, therefore, of the labours of the Select Committee had been to greatly lighten the Bill and to clear it of almost every subject of controversy, whilst at the same time it introduced a great many alterations of the law which were of considerable value. He might perhaps be allowed to say that the best thanks of the Committee were due to Lord Thring for the great care and attention he had bestowed on the drafting of this Measure. ["Hear!"] He found that two or three Amendments would have to be made, which, however, did not touch the substance of the Bill. In order that noble
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Lords might. have an opportunity of considering the Amendments he had put down, he proposed to take the Report stage to-morrow, and the Amendments on Thursday or Friday, when he hoped the House would give a Third Reading to, the Bill. ["Hear, hear!"] He begged to move that the House now resolve itself into Committee on the Bill.
Considered in Committee (according to Order). The Amendments proposed by the Select Committee made; Standing Committee negatived; the Report of Amendments to be received To-morrow.
House Adjourned at Five Minutes before Five o'Clock, till To-morrow, a Quarter past Ten o'Clock