§ For removing doubts it is hereby declared that the power under section twenty-four of the Volunteer Act 1863, to make rules with respect to a volunteer corps shall extend, and be deemed to have always extended, to rules for securing the efficiency of the members of the corps, and that a fine for the breach of any rule made under that power shall not be deemed to be a civil debt.
*THE SECRETARY OF STATE FOR WAR (The Marquess of LANSDOWNE)I have to propose an Amendment to this clause, which has been prepared with the object of placing a limitation, and I think a desirable limitation, on the power conferred by this Bill of recovering fines from Volunteers by means of proceedings in a Court of summary jurisdiction. I explained to the House the other evening that the object of the Bill is to make it clear that the power conferred by Section 24 of the Volunteer Act 1863, extends to making rules which have reference not only to the management of the property or the finances or the civil affairs of the corps, but also to rules affecting the efficiency of the corps. Under the operation of Sections 27 and 28 of the Act of I863, lines imposed under any of these rules may be recovered by proceedings before a Court of summary jurisdiction, and it has been argued, and I think argued with some force, that, given general powers of making rules of this character, and also an unrestricted power of recovery in a Court of summary jurisdiction, there would be nothing to prevent that which is now a civil liability being dealt with as if it were a criminal offence. ["Hear, hear!"] In order to meet this objection I propose to insert the words 1334 of which I have given notice, the effect of which will be to limit the provision for recovery of fines to fines imposed under rules made for the purpose of securing the efficiency of the corps, so that the power may not extend to fines imposed in connection with the management of the finances, or what might be spoken of as the domestic affairs of the corps. I feel sure that the Amendment will commend itself to the noble Earl (Earl of Wemyss), who, I know, takes an interest in the Bill. I beg to move to leave out the words, "rule made under that power," and to insert the words, such rule for securing efficiency."
§ THE EARL OF WEMYSSsaid that when the Bill first appeared there stood in the second clause, winch his noble Friend had given notice to omit, the very ugly word "imprisonment," and his fear was that under this Bill Volunteers would lose their civil rights and be put in a different position from other civilians. The whole life and soul of the Volunteer force was its civil character; it was never under military law, except when called out for duty; in other respects Volunteers were in the position of other civilians. But the Bill, he feared, would have placed Volunteers in a different position from other civilians who were not liable to imprisonment for non-payment of debt except under special circumstances where a Court found a man could pay and refused to pay. Otherwise imprisonment for debt had been abolished, and it seemed to him unreasonable to bring it into play again against Volunteers. To the Amendment of his noble Friend he offered no objection, thanking him for his endeavour to meet his wishes, and anything he might have to say upon the Bill he would reserve for the Third Reading.
§ *THE MARQUESS OF LANSDOWNEThe noble Earl will understand that the power to recover fines by proceedings in a Court of summary jurisdiction will be limited strictly to fines for an offence which, when committed by a Volunteer, virtually amounts to a denial of his services to the country after he has received at the expense of the corps certain advantages in consideration of those services forthcoming when required. That is distinctly a fraud on the part of the Volunteer.
§ Amendment agreed to; Clause, as amended, ordered to stand part of the Bill.
§ Clause 2,—