Lords Sitting of 8 July 1897

VOLUNTEERS BILL.
Considered in Committee.
[The CHAIRMAN Of COMMITTEES, the EARL Of MORLEY, in the Chair.]
Clause 1,—

EXPLANATION of 26 & 27 VICT. c. 65, ss. 24, 27.
For removing doubts it is hereby declared that the power under section twenty-four of the Volunteer Act 1863, to make rules with respect to a volunteer corps shall extend, and be deemed to have always extended, to rules for securing the efficiency of the members of the corps, and that a fine for the breach of any rule made under that power shall not be deemed to be a civil debt.
*THE SECRETARY OF STATE FOR WAR (The Marquess of LANSDOWNE): I have to propose an Amendment to this clause, which has been prepared with the object of placing a limitation, and I think a desirable limitation, on the power conferred by this Bill of recovering fines from Volunteers by means of proceedings in a Court of summary jurisdiction. I explained to the House the other evening that the object of the Bill is to make it clear that the power conferred by Section 24 of the Volunteer Act 1863, extends to making rules which have reference not only to the management of the property or the finances or the civil affairs of the corps, but also to rules affecting the efficiency of the corps. Under the operation of Sections 27 and 28 of the Act of I863, lines imposed under any of these rules may be recovered by proceedings before a Court of summary jurisdiction, and it has been argued, and I think argued with some force, that, given general powers of making rules of this character, and also an unrestricted power of recovery in a Court of summary jurisdiction, there would be nothing to prevent that which is now a civil liability being dealt with as if it were a criminal offence. ["Hear, hear!"] In order to meet this objection I propose to insert the words
1334
of which I have given notice, the effect of which will be to limit the provision for recovery of fines to fines imposed under rules made for the purpose of securing the efficiency of the corps, so that the power may not extend to fines imposed in connection with the management of the finances, or what might be spoken of as the domestic affairs of the corps. I feel sure that the Amendment will commend itself to the noble Earl (Earl of Wemyss), who, I know, takes an interest in the Bill. I beg to move to leave out the words, "rule made under that power," and to insert the words, such rule for securing efficiency."
THE EARL OF WEMYSSsaid that when the Bill first appeared there stood in the second clause, winch his noble Friend had given notice to omit, the very ugly word "imprisonment," and his fear was that under this Bill Volunteers would lose their civil rights and be put in a different position from other civilians. The whole life and soul of the Volunteer force was its civil character; it was never under military law, except when called out for duty; in other respects Volunteers were in the position of other civilians. But the Bill, he feared, would have placed Volunteers in a different position from other civilians who were not liable to imprisonment for non-payment of debt except under special circumstances where a Court found a man could pay and refused to pay. Otherwise imprisonment for debt had been abolished, and it seemed to him unreasonable to bring it into play again against Volunteers. To the Amendment of his noble Friend he offered no objection, thanking him for his endeavour to meet his wishes, and anything he might have to say upon the Bill he would reserve for the Third Reading.
*THE MARQUESS OF LANSDOWNE: The noble Earl will understand that the power to recover fines by proceedings in a Court of summary jurisdiction will be limited strictly to fines for an offence which, when committed by a Volunteer, virtually amounts to a denial of his services to the country after he has received at the expense of the corps certain advantages in consideration of those services forthcoming when required. That is distinctly a fraud on the part of the Volunteer.
Amendment agreed to; Clause, as amended, ordered to stand part of the Bill.
Clause 2,—

TERMINATION OF IMPRISONMENT.
If, before the expiration of the term of such imprisonment, such a proportion of the fine be paid that the term of imprisonment suffered is not less than proportional to the part of the fine still unpaid, the imprisonment shall terminate.
*THE MARQUESS OF LANSDOWNE*THE MARQUESS OF LANSDOWNE moved the omission of this clause. He said it was inserted in the House of Commons, and, as was pointed out on the Second Reading, it came before the House in a shape in which it could not possibly be allowed to stand. Since then attention had been called to the fact that a Bill promoted by the Home Department was now before the other House dealing with the prisons question, in one clause of which power would be taken in cases of persons imprisoned for non-payment of fines to accept a portion of the amount and to reduce the term of imprisonment by a number of days bearing the same proportion to the whole length of the term as the sum paid bore to the whole amount of the fine. The point was one which could be more conveniently dealt with by amendment of the general law, and therefore he proposed to omit t he clause altogether.
Clause struck out.
Clause 3,—

SHORT TITLE.
This Act may be cited as the Volunteer Act 1897.
Clause ordered to stand part of the Bill.
Standing Committee negatived; the Report of Amendment to be received Tomorrow; and Bill to be printed as amended.—(No. 150.)

EXTRAORDINARY TITHE BILL.
Read 3a (according to Order), and passed.

MARKET GARDENERS' COMPENSATION (SCOTLAND) BILL.
On the Order for Third Reading,
THE EARL OF WEMYSSasked whether this Bill was absolutely on all fours with the Agricultural Holdings Act with reference to tenants' improvements?
LORD REAYsaid the Bill was absolutely identical with the Market Gardeners Act, 1895, with such alterations as suited the conditions peculiar to Scotland.
Read 3a (according to Order), and passed.

MUNICIPAL ELECTIONS (SCOTLAND) BILL [H.L.]
*THE SECRETARY FOR SCOTLAND (Lord BALFOUR), in moving the Second Reading of this Bill, explained that its object was to allow returning officers at municipal elections in Scotland to make the same claim on the use of buildings used as public schools as they were now able to do in Parliamentary elections, County Council elections, and Parish Council elections. For some reason or other the provision was omitted in regard to municipal elections, and the Scotch Education Department acre therefore in a difficulty as to counting the days when the school was so used for municipal elections when making up the number of school attendances. In each year 400 openings were required as a condition of the school grant, and under the Code, whenever a schoolroom was used for other purposes under statutory powers, the day when the school was so used was counted as day when the school was opened. The sole object of the Bill was to place returning officers, in t he case of municipal elections, in the same position as in the ease of the other elections mentioned.
Read 2a (according to Order), and committed to a Committee of the Whole House To-morrow.

CHAFF-CUTTING MACHINES (ACCIDENTS) BILL.
Brought from the Commons; Read 1a, and to be printed.—(No. 151.)
VERMINOUS PERSONS BILL.
Brought from the Commons; Read 1a; to be printed; and to be Read 2a on Monday next—(The Earl of Stamford).—[No. 152.]

VOLUNTARY SCHOOLS ASSOCIATIONS.
The following Questions stood upon the Notice Paper:—
LORD WANTAGE: To ask the Lord President of the Council the following Questions with reference to the format of Associations of Voluntary Schools:
Whether the Education Department will take steps to prevent the supporters and managers of Voluntary Schools in Berkshire from being deprived of their right to have effect given to their choice of the county as the area of association:
Whether his attention has been called to the fact that, prior to the meeting of the Oxford Diocesan Conference in May last, the rural deans issued circulars to the correspondents of the school managers throughout the county of Berks asking them to ascertain if their co-managers were willing to join an association of schools for the county; and (if willing to join such an association) to elect two representatives to be thereafter summoned to a meeting by the rural deans for the purpose of electing two delegates for each rural deanery, such delegates to form the governing body of the county association. That, the consent of the managers having been so obtained to a county association, the Oxford Diocesan Conference met and passed a resolution that the area should be the diocese and not the county. That, thereupon, the representatives whom the managers elected for the purpose of carrying out the scheme of a county association were induced in many cases to proceed with the election of delegates for a diocesan scheme without any fresh application to the managers for authority to consent to such an important change:
And whether returns are being made to the Education Department that the managers have selected the diocese as the area of association notwithstanding the above facts, and in disregard of the resolution to the contrary passed at a meeting of school managers for the county held at Reading on the 12th instant;
1338
and of the important Petition to the Department signed by the Lord Lieutenant, the Chairman and Deputy Chairman of the County Council, all the County and Borough Members in Berks, and a large number of the Magistrates and Members of the County Council?
LORD HENEAGE: To ask the Lord President of the Council:
Whether any Voluntary Schools Associations have yet been sanctioned by the Education Department under the Voluntary Schools Act 1897?
Whether it is intended to extend the period for the formation of such associations under the Act in consequence of the delay and difficulties which have arisen by the attempt to force a purely diocesan association on the Church of England Schools in the county of Lincoln and other counties:
Whether his attention has been called to the fact that the Lincolnshire Diocesan Board of Education had formulated a scheme for a county undenominational Association which had received the general approval of the lay and clerical managers of schools in the rural parishes throughout the county:
Whether the following statements circulated through the rural deans are accurate, namely, that a diocesan Association had been formed in Lincolnshire under Section (1), (3), of the Voluntary Schools Act, 1897, before the 2nd of June; that if a school is not associated speedily it will be too late for this year's grant as an associated school; and that a. school not associated is acting in opposition to the wish of the Education Department, whilst a school which associates this year with a diocesan association can withdraw next year and be in no worse position:
And, further, what steps the Government propose to take for the assistance and protection of undenominational schools, as well as British and other mixed schools which are only technically Church of England schools, in those counties where diocesan associations may be formed, especially in Lincolnshire?
TETE LORD CHANCELLOR (Lord HALSBURY)said he had received a letter from the most rev. Prelate the Archbishop of Canterbury, and from two or three other members of the Episcopal Bench who wished to address their Lordships on the subject of these Questions,

1339
stating that they had been summoned by Her Majesty to Windsor, and were therefore unable to attend in their places that day. Under these circumstances they asked him to request the noble Lords to postpone their Questions until they were able to attend.
LORD WANTAGEsaid he at once acceded to the request made by the Lord Chancellor, and would postpone his Questions until Monday.
LORD HENEAGEalso signified his acquiescence in this course.
*VISCOUNT PORTMANasked the President of the Council whether the question of the larger area for associated Voluntary schools was to be decided by the votes of a majority of schools in a county, or by those of a majority in the diocese of which such county formed a part? He said this was a. very simple matter, which could very easily be decided for them by the Lord President. The diocese of Salisbury consisted of the whole county of Dorset and a large portion of the county of Wilts. The portion of the county of Wilts had declared their preference for the diocesan area, but the county of Dorset was divided as nearly as possible evenly on the question. He had taken a. great deal of trouble to ascertain the wishes of school managers, and he had answers from 115 schools in support of the county area, and from 112 schools in support of the diocesan area. He understood the right rev, Prelate the Bishop of Salisbury wished to count against the wishes of Dorset the wishes of the Wiltshire schools, who were, he understood, all in favour of the diocesan area. The purport of his question was whether the Lord President would allow the wishes of the Wiltshire schools to swamp the very marked wishes of the Dorset schools?
THE LORD PRESIDENT OF THE COUNCIL (The Duke of DEVONSHIRE): In reply to my noble Friend, I have to say that provisional approval has already been given to a diocesan association for the diocese of Salisbury. That, however, will not preclude the formation of a county association for the county of Dorset, if a sufficient number of managers of school in the county should appear to be in favour of such an association. I understand that it is the wish of the Bisho1 of Salisbury himself that if my noble
1340
Friend is able to obtain sufficient support to the county scheme which he proposes, that scheme should be approved, as it is far from his wish that any school should be forced into an association to which it objects to belong.

DELAGOA BAY ARBITRATION.
THE EARL OF MAYOasked Her Majesty's Government whether they had any information as to the award concerning the Delagoa. Bay Railway, or whether they could say when that award was likely to be made public. It would be in their Lordships' recollection, he said, that some years ago the Portuguese Government seized the Delagoa Bay Railway, and that the bondholders interested in the matter managed to get it referred to arbitration. The arbitration had almost become ancient history now, and he supposed that the arbitrators would, in the sweet by-and-bye, give their award. He thought the amount in which Englishmen were interested was £743,000 odd. There was a question answered the other day in another place, when it was stated that the long delay which had taken place was due in equal proportions to the successive applications of both parties. He was credibly informed that the Portuguese were the people who had put in other claims and so delayed the arbitration.
THE PRIME MINISTER (The Marquess of SALISBURY): I am afraid that arbitrations are emulating the ancient reputation of the Court of Chancery, and if there were a. Dickens in these days to write about them, a Jarndyce against Jarndyce might be found without difficulty in their records. The delay, I quite agree with my noble Friend, is something quite extraordinary, but when he asks me to apportion the responsibility of delay between the two sides of the case, I am wholly unable to do so. It is obvious that any delay that has taken place has taken place with the sanction of the tribunal, and I do not think you can go beyond its decision in order to blame the party, whoever it may be, by whose application any delay has happened. If my noble Friend asks me what the prospects of the arbitration are, I have to answer to him that I am informed that the decision will be speedily

1341
given—["hear, hear!"]—but I am afraid I shall not carry much comfort to his mind if I tell him that the sonic information has been supplied to me foi several years past. [Laughter.]
THE EARL OF KIMBERLEY: And also to me.
THE PRIME MINISTER: And also to the noble Lord opposite. [Laughter.] Therefore I fear I must leave my noble Friend to such consolation as he may be able to obtain from the reflection that after all he is supporting the sacred principle of arbitration. [Laughter.]
House Adjourned at Five Minutes before Five o'Clock, till To-morrow, a Quarter past Ten o'Clock.