Lords Sitting of 15 May 1896

PRIVATE BUSINESS.
  FOYLE COLLEGE AND LONDONDERRY ACADEMICAL INSTITUTION (AMAL- GAMATION) BILL.
  Brought from the Commons; read 1a, and referred to the Examiners.
  CANAL RATES, TOLLS AND CHARGES PROVISIONAL ORDER BILLS.
  The evidence taken before the Select Committee from time to time to be printed; but no copies thereof to be delivered, except to Members of the Committee and such other persons as the Committee shall think fit, until further Order.—[No. 93.]
  WILD BIRDS PROTECTION ACTS AMENDMENT BILL.
  Bill (on Motion) (by leave of the House) withdrawn.
  HOUSE TAX (CONSOLIDATION) BILL [H.L.]
  A Bill to consolidate enactments relating to the duties upon inhabited houses. Was presented by the Lord Chancellor; read 1a; and to be printed.—[No. 94.]
  PUBLIC HEALTH (SEWERS AND DRAINS) BILL [H.L.]
  Order of the Day for the House to be put into Committee, read, and discharged.
  LAND CHARGES BILL [H.L.]
  House in Committee (according to Order); Bills reported without Amendment; and re-committed to the Standing Committee.
  STANNARIES BILL [H.L.]
  House in Committee (according to Order); Bill reported without Amendment; and re-committed to the Standing Committee.
  SHORT TITLES BILL [H.L.]
  Read 3a (according to Order), and passed, and sent to the Commons.
  HOUSE OF LORDS OFFICES.
  Consideration of Third Report of the Select Committee (which stands appointed for this day) put off to Monday next.
  GENTLEMAN USHER OF THE BLACK ROD.
  The Earl of Morley added to the Select Committee appointed to inquire into the power and authority of the Gentleman Usher of the Black Rod.

  PUBLIC HEALTH (SCOTLAND) (No. 2) BILL.
  On the Order for the Report of Amendments to this Bill.
  THE CHAIRMAN OF COMMITTEES (The EARL of MORLEY)said, he had put on the Paper a considerable number of Amendments to this Bill. He had been in communication with the Secretary for Scotland on the subject, and he believed he was in a position to say that the noble Lord entirely approved of those Amendments. He had not, of course, dealt in any way with the questions of policy contained in the Bill; and his Amendments were simply introduced with the view of improving the drafting, and making the Bill as intelligible as possible. The first of the Amendments

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  was in Clause 4, Sub-section 2, page 3, lines 31 and 32, to leave out "both inclusive."
  Amendment agreed to.
  THE EARL OF MORLEY THE EARL OF MORLEY moved in the same clause, line 33, to leave out—
  "With the necessary modifications," and at the end of the sub-section to add, "and in the said sections for the purpose of such incorporation, 'the company' shall mean the local authority or the county council, as the ease may be; 'the railway' or the railway and works,' shall mean any works constructed under the powers of this Act; 'the construction of the railway' shall mean and include the construction of any works under this Act, or the acquisition of rights and powers to make sewers or to use any sewer; and 'lands taken or used for the purposes of the railway,' shall mean and include lands, buildings, engines, materials, or apparatus purchased, taken on lease, or used for the purposes of this Act."
  "(3.) The expression in this Act 'in terms of the Lands Clauses Acts,' or any similar expression, shall, unless the context otherwise requires, mean in terms of the Lands Clauses Acts (except the provisions thereof relating to the purchase and taking of land otherwise than by agreement), and of the Railways Clauses Consolidation (Scotland) Act, 1845, as incorporated in this Act."
  The noble Earl said that the foregoing Amendment was of more importance and required a word of explanation. Curiously enough the Scotch Lands Clauses Act did not contain a clause such as the English Act contained, giving compensation for lands which are not taken but are injuriously affected. But Section 6 of the Railway Clauses (Scotland) Act gives such compensation for land injuriously affected when so affected by the construction of a railway. Now to bring Section 6 into this Bill it was necessary that the Railway Clauses Act should be read with certain modifications, but the sub-section under consideration, as it was drawn, left that somewhat vague. The object of the Amendment was to make it quite clear what was meant by incorporating the Railway Clauses (Scotland) Act with the Bill. That was the first part of the Amendment. The second part added a defininition to the words "in terms of the Lands Clauses Acts."
  THE SECRETARY FOR SCOTLAND (Lord BALFOUR)said he was not going to oppose the Amendment, in
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  fact, the insertion which the noble Lord proposed carried with it what had always been understood by the word "modification." The reason why it was not changed in this Bill was because it was a consolidation as well as an Amendment Bill, and in some places, at any rate, where this change occurred, had been the law since 1867, and had not caused any inconvenience, although he did not deny the fuller interpretation now proposed might be an advantage.
  Amendment agreed to.
  On the Motion of the Earl of MORLEY, the following Amendments were also agreed to:—
  Clause 101, page 45, line 9, leave out ("presently").
  Clause 101, sub-section (1), page 51, line 12, leave out ("water and").
  Clause 120, sub-section (1), page 51, line 13, leave out ("thereto") and insert ("to take water or any servitude of water").
  Clause 120, sub-section (1), page 51, line 15, after, ("Parliament") insert ("or empowered by Provisional Order."
  Clause 137, page 60, line 23, leave out ("otherwise") and insert ("compulsion"), and leave out the first ("or") and insert ("any lands within or without their district and may by agreement").
  Clause 137, page 60, line 24, leave out ("whether situated").
  Clause 138, sub-section (1), page 60, line 35, leave out ("putting") and insert ("applying to the Board for an Order empowering them to put") and leave out ("any of").
  Clause 138, sub-section (1), page 60, line 36, after ("land") insert ("otherwise than by agreement").
  Clause 138, sub-section (1), page 61, line 4, after ("works") insert ("and of the lands which may be taken and a book of reference to such plan").
  Clause 138, sub-section (1), page 61, line 20, after sub-section (1) insert the following new sub-section:—
  "Every such plan shall be drawn on a scale of not less than four inches to a mile, and the book of reference shall contain the names of the owners, and lessees or reputed owners and lessees and of the occupiers of the lands which may be taken."
  Clause 138, (sub-section (4), page 62, line 12, after ("land") insert ("or any part of the land").
  THE EARL OF CAMPERDOWNcalled the attention of the Secretary for Scotland to a matter which had been brought under his notice. As the Bill stood there would be power in the local authority to take any existing private supply of water. Of course that was not intended, but he could find nothing in the Bill to prevent that being done. Now, if he was correct he proposed to move an Amendment on the Third Reading saving any existing water supply for domestic, agricultural or commercial purposes. Probably the best place for doing it would be on Clause 17 b.
  LORD BALFOURwas obliged the noble Lord for giving him notice of his Amendment, which he would undertake carefully to consider.
  On the Motion of THE EARL OF MORLEY, the following further Amendments were agreed to:—
  Clause 138, sub-section (4), line 14, leave out from "agreement'' in line 14 to "such'' in line 16, and insert, "and may make;" line 17, leave out "to make;" line 19, leave out "and it" and insert "provision shall be made by such order for the incorporation therein of the Lands Clauses Acts and (with the necessary modifications) of Sections 6 and 70 to 78 of the Railways Clauses Consolidation (Scotland) Act, 1845. It"; line 25, leave out "one month,'' and insert "two months;" Sub-section (6), page 62, line 32, leave out from "Scotland" in line 32 to "it" in line 36; lines 36 and 37, leave out "the Secretary for Scotland" and insert "him"; line 38, leave out "obtain such" and insert "submit such order to Parliament for" and leave out "the Act confirming" and insert "any Act passed to confirm.''
  Clause 138, Sub-section (7), line 40, leave out "such Confirmation Bill,'' and insert "Bill for confirming any such Order;" page 63, line 1, leave out from "Joint Committee" to the end of the subsection.
  THE EARL OF MORLEY,in moving, in Sub-section 8, page 63, line 7, to leave out from "witnesses" to the end of the sub-section, said that the sub-section provided that not more than one expert witness should be called on each side. In dealing with large water, sewage, and infectious hospital schemes, he thought it hardly safe to lay down such a regulation.
  Amendment agreed to.
  THE EARL OF MORLEY THE EARL OF MORLEY moved:— Clause 138, Sub-section 9, page 63, line 13, leave out from "memorial'' to the end of the sub-section.
  Amendment agreed to.
  THE EARL OF MORLEY THE EARL OF MORLEY moved:— Clause 138, page 64, after Sub-section (14) insert the following new sub-section:—
  "In this part of this Act the word 'land' includes any rights or powers to be exercised in connection with land, and rights and servitudes of water.''
  He said that it was not quite clear, unless such words were added, whether the order of the Secretary for Scotland would include some of the rights which were required to be given to the local authorities under the Bill.
  Amendment agreed to.
  THE EARL OF CAMPERDOWNcalled attention to Sub-section 11 of the clause, relative to compensation proceedings. As the clause stood, in a question of arbitration, if the parties did not agree on an arbitrator, one was to be appointed by the Local Government Board. When property to a large extent was being taken, he saw no reason why the ordinary procedure under the Lands Clauses Act should not be followed, as there was not the same reason, as in the case of allotments, for keeping the expenses to the lowest point.
  LORD BALFOURsaid, that there was a good reason for the subsection. The procedure under the Lands Clauses Act was not now had recourse to. Of recent years the procedure adopted in the subsection was almost universally adopted voluntarily by the parties to arbitrations.
  THE EARL OF CAMPER DOWNasked whether it was the existing custom for the Local Government Board to appoint an arbitrator where private property was taken for public purposes? That was the point.
  LORD BALFOURsaid he, would look into that question before the Third Reading.
  THE EARL OF CAMPER DOWNcalled attention to Sub-section 12, which provides that in arbitrations under the section, counsel are not to be heard except with the consent of the Local Government Board. He pointed out again that the property concerned might be of great value, and it might be very desirable and even more expeditious, to employ counsel.
  LORD BALFOURsaid, that an Amendment to the effect suggested by the noble Earl would have appeared on the Paper in his (Lord Balfour's) name if the House had sat on Thursday. But he would give notice of the Amendment at once, and move it after the Third Reading.
  Bill to be read 3a on Monday next, and to be printed as amended.—[No. 95.]

  DISPENSARY COMMITTEES (IRELAND) BILL.
  House in Committee according to Order. Bill reported without amendment, and recommitted to the Standing Committee.

  CHIMNEY SWEEPERS BILL [H.L.]
  LORD TEYNHAM,in moving the Second Reading of this Bill, said that its purpose was to prohibit chimney sweepers from shouting or crying in the streets in the pursuit of their employment. A Bill was passed in 1894 to prevent them from ringing a bell; and as the Bill came from the Commons it contained a provision similar to that in
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  the present Bill, but that provision was struck out in Committee. The absence of it had proved a hardship, for chimney sweepers who, through age or infirmity, could not cry in the streets were seriously handicapped in their business. The Bill was promoted by the London Chimney Sweepers' Association, who estimated that 75 per cent. of the class died in the workhouse; and they attributed this fact largely to the custom of "crying" in the streets, which made it impossible for those sweepers who could not "cry" to make a living.
  VISCOUNT CROSS: I do not see any noble Lord here who represents the Home Office, and I should like to hear the views of the Home Office, on the subject of this Bill. It seems to me to be carrying legislation too far. [Laughter.] It is rather grandmotherly legislation, which in my opinion had better be left alone. [Laughter.]
  LORD TEYNHAM: The first Bill which left the House of Commons in the last Parliament and contained this provision received the approval of the Home Office of that day.
  THE EARL OF KIMBERLEY: I wish to ask why these people are to be allowed to shout in Scotland? [Laughter.] In England or Ireland they may not be allowed to shout, but Scotland is excluded from the Bill. [Laughter.]
  LORD TEYNHAM: Neither the Act of 1875 nor the Act of 1894 applies to Scotland, and this Bill is to be read with those two Acts.
  THE LORD CHANCELLOR (Lord HALSBURY): I should like to know why chimney-sweepers alone should be selected for this treatment. [Laughter.] I do not see why they should be made the only pariahs of our civilisation. [Laughter.] There are many other nuisances of the same kind, and I do not see why chimneysweepers should be selected. The noble lord would do well to move the adjournment of the Debate as there is no representative of the Home Office here. Otherwise I am afraid he will not be able to get the Second Reading.
  Further Debate adjourned sine die.
  House adjourned at five minutes past Five o'clock, to Monday next, a Quarter before Eleven o'clock.