Lords Sitting of 23 March 1896

MARQUESS OF ELY (CLAIM TO VOTE FOR REPRESENTATIVE PEERS FOR IRELAND).
Ordered and directed, That a certificate be sent by the Clerk of the Parliaments to the Clerk of the Crown in Ireland, stating that the Lord Chancellor of the United Kingdom has reported to the House of Lords that the right of the Marquess of Ely to vote at the elections of Representative Peers of Ireland has been established to the satisfaction of him the said Lord Chancellor; and that the House of Lords has ordered such Report to be sent to the said Clerk of the Crown in Ireland: and it is hereby also Ordered, that the said Report of the said Lord Chancellor be sent to the Clerk of the Crown in Ireland.
LORD KINGSALE.
Report made from the Lord Chancellor, that the right of Michael Constantine de Courcy Baron of Kingsale to vote at the elections of Representative Peers for Ireland has been established to the satisfaction of the Lord Chancellor; read, and ordered to lie on the Table.
THE DUKE OF LEEDS.
Sat first in Parliament after the death of his father.
REPRESENTATIVE PEER FOR IRELAND.
Writs and Returns electing the Earl of Portarlington a Representive Peer for Ireland in the room of the Earl of Kingston deceased, with the certificate of the Clerk of the Crown in Ireland annexed thereto: Delivered (on oath), and certificate read.
ENDOWED SCHOOLS ACT, 1869, AND AMENDING ACTS.
Scheme for the management of the foundation known as Cowley Charity, in the parish of Donington, in the county of Lincoln, governed by a scheme of the High Court of Chancery dated on or about the 10th day of December 1858, as varied by a scheme of the Charity Commissioners of the 9th August 1876. Laid before the House (pursuant to Act), and to be printed.—[No. 45.]

PAYMENT OF WAGES IN PUBLIC HOUSES.
EARL STANHOPEasked the Government whether prosecutions were instigated by the police against the owners of public houses in England and Scotland as to the "payment of wages in public houses" in direct contravention of the Act of 1883, and of Section 11 of the Regulation of Coal Mines Act, 1887. Though he had no wish to make any aspersions on the County and Borough Police, a body of men who performed their duties very efficiently, often under trying circumstances, he thought they sometimes looked too indulgently on offences committed in public houses. This was very natural, as public houses served as clubs to the labouring classes. He thought this matter of payment of wages in public houses was not brought by the police to the notice of the magistrates. He hoped, therefore, that the Government would either issue new instructions to the police to prevent infractions of the Acts which he had referred to, or allow the question to be included in the terms of the reference before the Royal Commission on Licensing which was about to be appointed.
LORD BELPERsaid the Secretary of State for the Home Department had caused inquiries to be made in a large number of counties and in several important industrial towns, and the result was to convince him that the police were ready to prosecute in any cases of breach of the law which came within their cognizance. As the noble Lord had stated, cases of the kind referred to were now very rare in any part of the United Kingdom, while in the Metropolitan and many other districts of the country it had entirely ceased. If the noble

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Lord could point out any cases of infringement of the law within his own knowledge, the Home Secretary would make inquiry into them and direct the necessary steps to be taken.

DISCHARGED PRISONERS' AID SOCIETIES.
EARL STANHOPEasked whether, in consideration of the small assistance made to Discharged Prisoners' Aid Societies throughout the country by Her Majesty's Government (which had not been revised since the prisons were taken over by the State), they would be prepared to make any recommendation to Parliament? The noble Lord remarked that he was sure their Lordships would recognise and appreciate the importance of the work done by these societies. Very often the help and assistance such a society offered a discharged prisoner were the only chance given him of starting a new and better life. Without timely aid he was likely to drift back into crime and prison. But the aid which had hitherto been granted by the Government for this purpose was comparatively very small—£1,500 a year altogether, or about 6d. for each discharged prisoner, and no alteration had been made since 1877, the time the Prisons Act was passed. Considering the large number of prisoners daily discharged in the country this sum was altogether inadequate, and, but for the supplemental aid of the various benevolent societies, the work of reform done by this means would be very small. He had been informed that the large prison at Wormwood Scrubbs, which discharged about 500 prisoners a year, received a grant in aid of only £40 a year, and, under existing arrangements, if 2,000 prisoners were annually discharged from the prison, no increase would be granted. The Lord Chief Justice had borne testimony to the value of those societies in a recent speech, and had stated that they ought to receive increased support. In 1894, a Departmental Committee on prisons was appointed, of which Mr. Herbert Gladstone was chairman, and Sir Algernon West one of the leading members,
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and, among other matters, the Committee considered the case of the Discharged Prisoners' Aid Societies. They reported in 1895, and, after expressing the opinion that some regulation was required in order to bring all those benevolent societies into uniformity of action, they added:—
"We think that the Government grant might with advantage be increased, and in any case it should be made applicable in the case of societies which conduct establishments for the reception and training of discharged prisoners on principles approved by the Government, and which can show that their efforts are practically successful."
He had heard that the Home Secretary had already had the matter brought under his attention; if so, he hoped the right hon. Gentleman would give it very serious consideration.
LORD BELPERsaid, he was sure that all their Lordships who were at all conversant with the work done by the Discharged Prisoners' Aid Societies, would fully concur in all that had been said by the noble Lord as to their usefulness, and the value of the work they accomplished with even the small means at their disposal. An Inquiry was now being held into the working of those societies. One of the first recommendations of the Prisons Committee Report to which the noble Lord had referred was to the effect that a detailed report of the nature and working of Prisoners' Aid Societies should be obtained, and it was in pursuance of that recommendation that the Inquiry was being made. The Committee made other recommendations bearing indirectly on the same question, and reported that the existing grant should be increased and extended in its operation on improved methods. Their Lordships would see, therefore, that it was impossible for the Home Secretary to come to any decision until those inquiries were completed. He could assure the noble Lord that the Inquiry was rapidly proceeding, that a large part of it was already completed, and that before long therefore the Home Secretary would have before him the facts necessary to enable him to come to a decision affecting the Societies.
EARL STANHOPEasked what kind of inquiries were being made.
LORD BELPERsaid a gentleman had been appointed to hold local investigations and to inquire into the management of all the different Discharged Prisoners' Aid Societies. His labours had been already more than two-thirds completed.

CAMP ARRANGEMENTS AT MALTA.
THE EARL OF BUCKINGHAMSHIREasked the Secretary of State for War whether any inquiry had been recently instituted into the sanitary arrangements at Pembroke Camp, at Malta; and, if so, with what result; what amount of money had been spent there on sanitary arrangements since the last outbreak of enteric fever; to what cause were the deaths of Captain Carey, who died at Pembroke Camp on February 21st, and Private Lucas, who died about the middle of February, both of them belonging to the Royal Warwickshire Regiment, attributed. He remarked that he had received information to the effect that Pembroke Camp was in a shockingly in sanitary condition. In consequence of deaths from enteric fever some time since the drains were opened and examined, and, though they were found to be in a very foul condition and dangerous to the health of the troops, no prompt remedial measures were taken. The consequence was that the troops of the two regiments stationed at the camp had been obliged to turn out into the parade-ground because of the insanitary condition of the barracks. He hoped the Secretary for War would be able to assure the House that the matter would be immediately attended to, and that the report of the Joint Civil and Military Committee as to the condition of the camp in question at Malta would be acted upon. ["Hear, hear!"]
THE SECRETARY OF STATE FOR WAR (The MARQUIS OF LANSDOWNE): The last inquiry into the sanitary condition of Pembroke Camp, Malta, was held by a joint civil and military Committee early in 1894. This inquiry revealed grave defects in the sanitary arrangements of Pembroke Camp, the chief points requiring attention being the water supply, which was shown to be polluted, and the drainage system, which required complete renovation. Suspicion
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was also cast on the supply of mineral waters and milk by hawkers to the soldiers, and the attention of the General was called to this point. In consequence of the Report of the Committee the polluted water supply was cut off, and none but aqueduct water is now used. The question of renovating the drainage of the camp has proved a more difficult one, as a complete scheme for remodelling the drainage of the whole island has been under consideration, and a thorough reconstruction of the sewers of the camp can only be undertaken in connection with it. Much has, however, been done to improve the sanitation. The remodelling of the drainage of the upper half of the camp was sanctioned in May last, and considerable progress has been made with the work. As to the second part of the noble Lord's Question, I am afraid I cannot say what amount has been spent on the drainage since the last outbreak of enteric fever, which I regret to say occurred only a month or two ago, Captain Carey dying on February 21 and Private Lucas about the same time. During the year 1895 a sum of about £300 was spent on improving the existing drains, but besides this a very considerable sum was devoted to the partial remodelling to which I have already referred. As, however, this was done in connection with the reconstruction of a part of the barracks and the specific expenditure on drainage was not earmarked, I am afraid I cannot state its exact amount. As to the last part of the Question I have not yet received the detailed reports as to the deaths of Captain Carey and Private Lucas, but there is, I believe, no doubt that enteric fever was the cause in both cases, and there is, I fear, good reason to suppose that the fever was due to the unsatisfactory sanitary condition of the island if not of the barracks. I am obliged to the noble Lord for calling my attention to the matter, which seems to need further inquiry. I can promise him that it shall have my special attention.

FINANCIAL RELATIONS.
LORD MORRISasked Her Majesty's Government why there had been no final Report from the Commission on the

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Financial Relations between Great Britain and Ireland, and whether the evidence on the subject closed in March 1895, with the exception of three witnesses who were examined in November 1895. He said he was aware that considerable delay had arisen from the illness and ultimately the death of his lamented Friend Mr. Childers. It was a matter of notoriety that Mr. Childers had almost completed a Report on this subject. The question had been before the Commission for nearly three years, but during the last year little had been done except the preparation of the Report by Mr. Childers. Since his death he was not aware of any step being taken. The Commission was now without a Chairman, and rumour said that the Commission was to lie up until a nobleman returned from the East. This was a pressing matter, especially as their Lordships would soon have before them subjects in which the financial relations of the two countries were involved; such, for instance, as a Bill relating to the purchase of land in Ireland. It had always been a great grievance in Ireland that they were overtaxed. That over taxation largely arose from the successful exertions to impose taxation upon Ireland by that great financial enemy of Ireland, Mr. Gladstone—[a laugh]—who never missed the opportunity of imposing taxation on Ireland while posing as her political friend. He hoped the Government would bring the matter to a conclusion, and thus prevent a perpetual discussion as to whether Ireland paid too much or too little. He had little doubt we had for a long time been paying too much, and he hoped the question of what she had overpaid would be taken into consideration by the Government at the earliest opportunity.
LORD BELPERsaid, the noble Lord had partly answered himself, as he had referred to the unfortunate death of Mr. Childers. No new Chairman had as yet been appointed in the place of that Gentleman, who shortly before his death prepared and sent out to the other members of the Commission for their consideration a draft Report. The evidence closed in March 1895, with the exception of three witnesses who gave evidence in May and June and November. In consequence of the General Election it was found necessary to adjourn the
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sittings of the Commission till the autumn. He believed the question of the appointment of another Chairman was only awaiting the return to England from abroad of a noble Lord.

LOCOMOTIVES ON HIGHWAYS BILL [H.L.]
LORD HARRIS,in asking their Lordships to give a First Reading to a Bill to amend the law with respect to locomotives on highways, said the object of the Measure was to remove those disabilities which at present prevented the use, and consequently the manufacture, of those light locomotives in which a considerable amount of interest had been taken by the public during the last year or two. The method of the Bill was to exempt light locomotives from certain statutory provisions, and then to impose certain restrictions as regarded weight and traction. The Bill also retained certain power in respect to the regulation of traffic on highways for the authorities who now dealt with that matter. It also reserved to the Local Government Board power to make regulations, and it also contained a provision in regard to the keeping and use of petroleum or of any other inflammable liquid or fluid. He was satisfied this was a Measure in which their Lordships would take a great interest, and he could not help thinking it was possible between now and the Second Reading that some of their Lordships might possibly be able to advise him to his advantage with regard to some of the provisions of it.
LORD CLIFDENinquired if the Bill contemplated electricity as a motive power?
LORD HARRISdid not think it excluded it.
Bill presented and read 1a.—[No. 46.]

GRIFFIN'S DIVORCE BILL [H.L.]
Read 3a, and passed, and sent to the Commons.

PUBLIC HEALTH (SCOTLAND) BILL [H.L.]
Select Committee on: The Lords following were named of the Committee: Duke of Richmond, Marquess of Breadalbane, Earl of Lauderdale, Earl of Camperdown, Lord Balfour, Lord Ker (Marquess of Lothian), Lord Kilmarnock (Earl of Errol), Lord Kintore (Earl of Kintore), Lord Reay, Lord Tweedmouth, Lord Overtoun.
The Committee to meet on Thursday next, at Three o'clock, and to appoint their own Chairman.

BURGLARY BILL [H.L.]
Read 3a (according to Order), and passed, and sent to the Commons.
POOR LAW GUARDIANS (IRELAND) (WOMEN) BILL.
Read 3a (according to Order), with the Amendments, and passed, and returned to the Commons.

RETIREMENT OF VESTRYMEN (LONDON) BILL [H.L.]
LORD MONKSWELL,in moving the Second Reading of this Bill, said it was a permissive Bill. It did not compel anyone to do anything. At present Vestrymen retired by one-thirds every year, and what it was proposed by the Bill to do was to authorise London Vestries to request the London County Council to permit the simultaneous retirement of the whole body every three years. Under the Local Government Act of 1894, Boards of Guardians were authorised to make a similar request, and have largely availed themselves of that power. There was a general feeling that the stimulating effect of local elections in London was impaired by reason of their frequency. The Bill was supported by both sides in the
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County Council. As to the details of the Bill, he did not say they were beyond criticism. There were a good many suggestions which might profitably be made in Committee, and, of course, he should be willing to consider them.
THE EARL OF DENBIGHsaid, he had intended to oppose the Bill, but he understood that the Local Government Board was prepared to accept it. He did not agree with the noble Lord that the Bill was supported by all Members of both parties in the County Council. The permissive character of the Bill was objectionable. Then the title of the Bill, which was to assimilate the law as to Vestries with the law as to Boards of Guardians, would have to be amended, for he did not think that these bodies stood in exactly a similar position. The object of re-electing the one-thirds every year was to keep up a continuity of policy, which was very necessary in such bodies as Vestries, where there were considerable spending powers. As the Government had accepted the Bill he should watch for the Amendments and see whether the noble Lord was prepared to accept them in Committee.
LORD HARRISsaid, his instructions were to accept the principle of the Bill, but he was bound to say it would require a good many Amendments, which he hoped the noble Lord would accept in Committee. He understood, from the conversation he had had with the noble Lord, that he was prepared to accept Amendments with regard to the title and the inclusion of auditors, which were not referred to in the Bill. Again, the provisions of the Bill did not appear to be complete as regarded area. Next, as to the fixing of the date in May for the election—this was a power exercised hitherto by the County Council, and under instructions from the Local Government Board. The Bill as it stood would, therefore, be inconsistent with the Act of 1894. With regard to the observations of his noble Friend behind, with reference to continuity, he should take care that his observations should be brought before the President of the Local Government Board.
LORD MONKSWELLthought that the Amendments suggested would be an

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improvement, and he was prepared to give them his best consideration. In answer to the noble Earl opposite, he begged to point out that two of the bodies in London which exercised the largest spending powers—the County Council and the School Board—were elected on the triennial principle.
Read 2a (according to Order), and committed to a Committee of the Whole House.

ARMY (ANNUAL) BILL.
Brought from the Commons, and read 1a; to be read 2a To-morrow.—(Secretary of State for War)—[No. 47.]
BUSINESS OF THE HOUSE.
Standing Orders No. XXXIX. and XLV. to be considered To-morrow, in order to their being suspended for that day's sitting.

EASTER HOLIDAYS.
THE EARL OF ROSEBERY: Will it be convenient to the Prime Minister to make a statement as to the holidays?
THE PRIME MINISTER (The Marquess of SALISBURY): The difficulty in our way was not knowing what Bills were likely to come from the House of Commons. There were one or two Bills connected with the War Office which we did entertain a hope might become law before Easter. That hope having disappeared, I can now state that the House will rise on Friday next, and, I suppose, it will meet again on the 21st of April.
House adjourned at ten minutes past Five o'clock, till To-morrow, a quarter past Ten o'clock.